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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Elves didn't make the palantiri, the Numenoreans did. quote:’No,’ said Gandalf. ‘Nor by Saruman. It is beyond his art, and beyond Sauron’s too. The palantíri came from beyond Westernesse, from Eldamar. The Noldor made them. Fëanor himself, maybe, wrought them, in days so long ago that the time cannot be measured in years.’ e: also, Galadriel may have seen the fellowship in her mirror, but it’s not clear to me that she could have divined their plan from it. The mirror does not necessarily tell the truth and it doesn’t have any apparent ability to transmit sound/speech. skasion fucked around with this message at 21:04 on Oct 1, 2018 |
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Oct 1, 2018 20:59
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Oct 1, 2018 21:03
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Even ignoring gandalfs quote, there is no way the palantir were not made by the Noldor.
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Oct 1, 2018 23:44
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Lorien is an isolationist sect so Elladan and Elrohir aren't going to go gossiping about anything to anyone but family. What route did they take? Meet any interesting people there? Nice weather? Big weapons stockpile? They're not saying a word.
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Oct 1, 2018 23:48
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sassassin posted:Lorien is an isolationist sect so Elladan and Elrohir aren't going to go gossiping about anything to anyone but family. What route did they take? Meet any interesting people there? Nice weather? Big weapons stockpile? They're not saying a word. This is fair enough, especially since Lorien so glaringly neglected to dignify the council with her presence and the subject of her land is shut down whenever it comes up...but why not even tell Aragorn? He’s been there!
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Oct 2, 2018 00:17
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skasion posted:This is fair enough, especially since Lorien so glaringly neglected to dignify the council with her presence and the subject of her land is shut down whenever it comes up...but why not even tell Aragorn? He’s been there! A barely-tolerated would-be son-in-law doesn't get the family news.
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Oct 2, 2018 09:32
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Ynglaur posted:A barely-tolerated would-be son-in-law doesn't get the family news. Guess Who's Coming to Dunland?
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Oct 2, 2018 13:20
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Honestly rereading the start of book two, I feel much less bad about Gandalf telling Pippin to go chuck himself in a well. Almost every single time we hear of him between Rivendell and Moria he’s just bitching, mostly at Gandalf, who stuck his neck out in front of Elrond to get Pippin a chance to come along in the first place. He bitches when they see the mountains of Moria ahead of them because he thinks (wrongly because he’s never looked at a map in his life) that having mountains in front means they’ve turned the wrong way. He bitches when they almost get spotted by the birds because it means they can’t light a fire so he can get a hot supper. He bitches about the snowstorm in the pass when the adults are trying to decide what to do. He bitches at Boromir for a change after he dug a way back out of the pass for them. He bitches about the prospect of entering Moria. He bitches to Sam about how Elrond was right and he’s actually a wimp who should never have come along. He bitches about Gandalf’s inability to open the doors and then bitches some more when Gandalf stops trying to open them. Then he almost rushes blindly into the room with the well before he knows what’s in there, and then he drops a rock down it. The only other time he does anything other than bitch is when someone mentions giving up the quest and going back to Rivendell, he’s like “all right!”
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Oct 2, 2018 19:07
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Pretty sure Pippin also complains when they escape the Orcs near Fangorn that he has no idea where they are or what to do. And then Merry is like don't worry bud while you were smoking weed and eating in Rivendell I actually looked at some maps and we're in Fangorn forest. Even the good things Pippin does are gently caress ups that just happened to be beneficial. Looking into the Palantir was nearly disastrous. If Sauron had questioned him Pippin would have revealed everything. But he didn't, and so instead Sauron was freaked out because he thought Saruman had the ring or the Hobbits. And Pippin looking into the Palantir like that revealed its nature. Gandalf wasn't sure what it was, and might have tried looking himself. If he had, he might have revealed himself to Sauron and been unable to strive successfully with him in a mental struggle like that which he hadn't prepared for. And Pippin figuring out what it was ultimately leads to Aragorn using it to tell Sauron to gently caress off and also sets up the whole paths of the Dead quest. And Pippin and Merry being weak and kinda useless leads to them being captured by Saruman's Orcs and nearly ferried away to Isengard which would have again been to the Fellowship's ruin. But instead the Orcs take them with tremendous speed directly to Fangorn which leads to the Ents waking up and loving up Saruman's plans. At least with Merry he fights back and cuts off a few Orc arms when they try to seize them. Pippin apparently just goes ah gently caress it I guess we're captured now and gets taken. Apart from stabbing a troll in the battle near Baradur Dur the only other intentionally useful thing Pippin does is managing to free himself from the Orc bondage. The rest of his successes are basically gently caress ups that turn out to be beneficial. Sam on the other hand beats off a Spider demon god, carries Frodo up a mountain while both are dying of thirst and hunger, beats the poo poo out of Gollum when Gollum attacks him, resists the lure of the Ring and gives it freely back to Frodo, fights off Orc soldiers to rescue Frodo, and even convinces Frodo not to just lay there and die at the end when the ring is destroyed which leads to them finding a spot safe enough to be rescued by the Eagles. Tbh I'm not sure if any Fellowship member is as heroic as Sam. Yeah Gandalf kills a Balrog and Aragorn does some crazy poo poo but Sam is the one who makes the quest succeed by sheer willpower.
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Oct 2, 2018 19:32
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Pippin does get a bit less dumb later on, though I’ve complained before in this thread about how he’s basically the least perceptive narrator of all time during Gandalf’s contretemps with Denethor. But specifically for the entire week before Gandalf twice threatens him with serious bodily harm, he’s been an agonizingly whiny limp dishrag.
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Oct 2, 2018 19:43
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Pippin carried a message to the signal fire guys in Gondor I guess? And he pledged loyalty to Denethor which was definitely in the "fuckups that turned out OK" category. Hey something I was just thinking about, that's really kind of weird: you know how such a big part of the ongoing slow reveal in LotR is about the "shadow realm" of the wraiths and Sauron, that you enter by putting on the Ring? How early on in the book, it's a mysterious thing you only get glimpses of and a bit of Gandalf exposition, but as the story goes on and on the text is more and more explicit about what's happening, to the point where you gain a pretty good understanding of how people like Sauron and the Nazgûl and Bilbo and Frodo and to some degree the Elves pass between the two worlds and what they can each see of the "opposite" world? But even then, even by the end of the story, it's still fairly mysterious and ambiguous — the characters don't gain any particular mastery over it, they don't start willfully jumping in and out of worlds or use it as a fast-travel tool like in some other fantasy stories with similar constructs. They don't even really give it a definitive name. You would think, from the LotR text, that this whole "shadow world" thing would be a pretty big part of Tolkien's cosmology, right? You'd think that in a more comprehensive work like the Silmarillion, he would have gone into the mechanics of that world, explaining how it works, how different races interact with it, how (whether) it's a particular domain of Sauron and his creatures, or whether it's a general Ainur thing? You'd think that the Silmarillion and other background writings would have filled in all the blanks, so that (like with the Beren and Lúthen story or Sauron's own backstory) the next time you read LotR you'd get that much deeper an understanding of what it is Frodo is experiencing when he puts on the Ring? But the Silmarillion has nothing like that. It's like it was a concept he came up with solely for LotR, and he never revisited any of his Silmarillion stuff with an eye toward integrating it into the mythos. I find that really weird. Is it a sign of the "curtain" between LotR and the Silmarillion never fully coming down, the way Olsen describes as happening in that one huge moment when Aragorn starts telling the story of Beren and Lúthien? Is it a branch of "Hobbit" style worldbuilding that he never found a way to reconcile with his older writings, but didn't want to remove from LotR because of how well it worked narratively? It feels like one of those rare pieces of incompletely-thought-through lapses in continuity between the "smaller" and "larger" stories, but it feels like a bigger deal to me than it used to for some reason.
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Oct 2, 2018 19:53
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It’s the kind of thing that doesn’t need to be discussed in the Silmarillion text because it’s so deeply embedded in it. For psychologically modern people like Frodo, it’s freakin weird when he sees indistinct dark-cloaked shapes suddenly revealed in their spiritual nature as pale old kings of men in battle gear, or his good buddy Strider as a young elf-lord in white robes or what have you. The modern reader, and the characters Tolkien creates for them to see through, don’t directly understand this sort of experience. But for ancient mythic elves who lived in paradise, that kind of thing is completely natural — in his brief explanation of these matters to Frodo, Gandalf says that someone like Glorfindel can always see the spiritual essence of things. Legolas can hear when rocks are talking to him, and he’s the son of some nobody robber baron who only even got sent along on quest as punishment for letting Gollum sneak out from under him. When Fingolfin rides to fight Melkor, he is visually transfigured by his wrath, his eyes shine (Tolkien’s de-rigueur motif for spiritual mojo occurring) and he is taken for one of the gods by those who see him. Fëanor is so spiritually active that he spontaneously combusts when he dies! A woman can become a sea-bird, a man can become a star, their granddad banged an angel. We’re not in Kansas anymore here, if you want these guys to explain the spiritual dimension of their experience you might as well ask them how they can tell the color of the sky.
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Oct 2, 2018 20:23
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It's almost like Pippin is supposed to be a wealthy and privileged aristocratic firstborn who's never had to do a single useful thing in his life
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Oct 2, 2018 20:24
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webmeister posted:It's almost like Pippin is supposed to be a wealthy and privileged aristocratic firstborn who's never had to do a single useful thing in his life Indeed, but so is Merry and he’s much less of a moron (and Pippin knows it). Goofus asks the wizard what he is going to do about those doors and gets yelled at; Gallant gets the wizard thinking on the right track and gets the credit for it.
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Oct 2, 2018 20:41
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Merry is cool and reliable, if somewhat boring as a character. When I first read Fellowship back in middle school before there were movies I was sure he was going to play a more important role as the “smart one.”
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Oct 2, 2018 20:47
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skasion posted:Indeed, but so is Merry and he’s much less of a moron (and Pippin knows it). Goofus asks the wizard what he is going to do about those doors and gets yelled at; Gallant gets the wizard thinking on the right track and gets the credit for it. It's kinda funny how irritated Gandalf gets with Pippin given it was Gandalf who vouched for him and ultimately allowed for Pippin and Merry to go. If we imagine a different scenario where Glorfindel and some other elf lord (one of the twins maybe?) gets sent in their stead, I think we can figure that Boromir still tries and fails to take the Ring, but the rest of the company apart from Aragorn/Legolas/Gimli dies running into the Orcs that were looking for Frodo. And then Aragorn probably chases (and catches up to) Frodo instead of going to Gondor, and the lot of them probably get caught trying to get into Mordor because the path Gollum chose was the only right one but it's unclear if Aragorn would have agreed. And Rohan falls without their help, and then Gondor is hit on both sides and gets sacked even if the Fellowship somehow manages a way into Mordor and destroys the ring.
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Oct 2, 2018 21:17
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Ginette Reno posted:It's kinda funny how irritated Gandalf gets with Pippin given it was Gandalf who vouched for him and ultimately allowed for Pippin and Merry to go. This is probably a big part of why Gandalf gets pissed off with him tbh. Gandalf talks him up like he’s totally competent to come along and friendship will see him through, and all he does is moan and sass Gandalf back.
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Oct 2, 2018 21:22
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I've always read Pippin as being the closest thing to a self-insert character there is; he reminds me a lot of one of the two types of Young Officer memoir from the Great War, the guy who didn't really know what he was getting himself into and spends his time bumbling amiably between misadventures until he has to grow up in a hurry when the time comes; he spends a lot of time having a private crisis of confidence and his thoughts about the war are not entirely dissimilar to Tolkien's own. (The other type is usually just slightly older and more mature and thoughtful, and when he has misadventures there's a bitter tang to them.)
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Oct 2, 2018 21:59
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Now I really want to know Tolkein's thoughts about the war.
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Oct 2, 2018 23:43
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Re: Galadriel, it is possible Elladan and Elhrohir were able to give her the entire list of probables, since I think the only real surprise was Pippin and Merry instead of like, Glorfindel and poo poo.
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Oct 2, 2018 23:46
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Nessus posted:Re: Galadriel, it is possible Elladan and Elhrohir were able to give her the entire list of probables, since I think the only real surprise was Pippin and Merry instead of like, Glorfindel and poo poo. "...so there's no way they're going to send any of the shortarses other than the poor dumb bastard who's holding on to the Ring, they'd just get weepy when they chuck him into the lava, so don't worry about them. Really I've forgotten their names already. Oh and Thranduil sent his fuckup kid along to tell us about his latest catastrophic whoopsie, so if they do some sort of corny 'all Free Peoples' horseshit then expect to see his hillbilly rear end there too. Dwarfs? Hell I don't know. You can't really tell them apart anyway. So anyway, whaddya got on tap out here?"
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Oct 3, 2018 07:30
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Flipping forward to Lorien, I see that Haldir actually refers to this plot thread again:quote:“But we have heard rumours of your coming, for the messengers of Elrond passed by Lórien on their way home up the Dimrill Stair. We had not heard of – hobbits, of halflings, for many a long year, and did not know that any yet dwelt in Middle-earth. You do not look evil! And since you come with an Elf of our kindred, we are willing to befriend you, as Elrond asked; though it is not our custom to lead strangers through our land. But you must stay here tonight. How many are you?” So Elladan/Elrohir told the Galadhrim to expect a party from Rivendell including halflings, but not how many or who else (Haldir is shocked to hear that a dwarf is among them). This is a bit odd too though. It implies Lorien wasn’t the messengers’ destination, they only hit it on the way back. Could they have been sent to Fangorn? Only other place I can think of that Lorien would be on the way back from would be Dol Guldur. Later, when they are on the way to Caras Galadhon, Haldir tells them that Galadriel now knows of every member of the company, and speculates that more messages have arrived from Rivendell. Such messages would have to be telepathic since nobody could really have gotten from Elrond to Galadriel any quicker than the company — or else Galadriel has just been observing them since they entered the wood. Celeborn later confirms that “nine were to set out: so said the messages.” So Elrond had his significant number in mind before he had nailed down the membership of the company. Galadriel then lends credence to the idea that she has been observing them and reading their minds recently: quote:“Gandalf the Grey set out with the Company, but he did not pass the borders of this land. Now tell us where he is; for I much desired to speak with him again. But I cannot see him from afar, unless he comes within the fences of Lothlórien: a grey mist is about him, and the ways of his feet and of his mind are hidden from me.” This also kind of rules out the possibility that she knew everything before they entered Lorien. So yes, Elladan and Elrohir gave them vague advance warning on their way back from, uh, somewhere else.
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Oct 3, 2018 23:18
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Rereading LotR for the n-th time (after a lengthy break of some years, though), I'm getting to Lórien and was struck by how the issue of magic is discussed or rather alluded to there. Sam discusses with Frodo how wonderful Lothlórien is, even though it doesn't exhibit any clear signs of "magic" he can perceive, and later on he identifies "magic" with what he heard in old tales. I'm guessing this would be rather similar to what we hear in our fairy tales: witches with wands, turning people into frogs and so on (in fact, he is afraid of just that when he is caught eavesdropping by Gandalf). Shortly afterwards, Galadriel appears:quote:'And you? ’ she said, turning to Sam. 'For this is what your folk would call magic. I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem also to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy. But this, if you will, is the magic of Galadriel. Did you not say that you wished to see Elf-magic? ' It spells it out pretty clearly here that a) the magic of popular imagination is very different from what Elves and wizards are able to do, and b) that the "magic" wrought by Sauron is of a different kind that that of Galadriel, and not just different in its aims. Later on, magic is discussed again: quote:'Are these magic cloaks? ’ asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder. A more traditional sort of magic (or at least what the Hobbits would perceive as such) comes up when Gandalf first encounters the Balrog: quote:’I do not know,' answered Gandalf. 'But I found myself suddenly faced by something that I have not met before. I could think of nothing to do but to try and put a shutting-spell on the door. I know many; but to do things of that kind rightly requires time, and even then the door can be broken by strength. [...] The counter-spell was terrible. It nearly broke me. For an instant the door left my control and began to open! I had to speak a word of Command. That proved too great a strain. The door burst in pieces. All in all this seems to reinforce that "magic" in Middle-Earth is heavily ritualistic in nature as well as heavily dependent on a) who does it, b) what the intention behind it is and c) how it is done. It reminds me of the Catholic understanding of the nature of the sacraments and sacramentals. According to Catholic theology, the most radical and important "supernatural" thing that can be done by men is the Eucharist, where bread and wine are turned into flesh and blood of Christ. It is no flashy thing (well, outside of grandiose baroque churches  ), and the change cannot be perceived by our senses, but for the pious it is still there. But it isn't anybody who can do it: It requires an ordained priest, both intending and performing the ritual of the Eucharist correctly with the correct matter. You can't just take any old wine or bread in the Catholic Church, but for the sacrament to be valid ritually pure ingredients need to be used.Another thing I thought of (both due to Haldir's answer to Pippin and the dicussion of how lembas is produced itt) is how Orthodox monks and nuns create icons. Icons are of supreme importance in the Eastern Church; they're seen as not just pictorial representations of holy things, but as the holy things themselves or rather windows through which we may perceive them. In many monasteries, the painting of icons is a long and elaborate process, during which the painter undergo lengthy times of fasting and intense prayer until the act of painting itself becomes a performative prayer. Similar things happen in Catholic nunneries where the sisters prepare the Eucharistic hosts. The last categories that affect "magic" in Middle-Earth are, I think, invocation and occasion. A couple of pages ago, this thread debated how it was possible that Isildur could cast such a powerful curse. Oaths and curses are powerfull stuff in Tolkien's universe, even when made my "non-magical" folks like hobbits, men and dwarves. Gimli and Elrond actually debate the power of oaths earlier: quote:The further you go, the less easy will it be to withdraw; yet no oath or bond is laid on you to go further than you will. For you do not yet know the strength of your hearts, and you cannot foresee what each may meet upon the road.' I think that this not only fits well into the normative power Tolkien gives to the right words spoken by the right person, but also shows that these two categories must be accounted for, too. It must be an important occasion in which an oath is said or a curse pronounced - the innate significance of the event translates into supernatural power. Gimli might have sworn an oath once the fellowship set out to destroy the ring; Isildur cast his curse upon discovering the treachery of the men of Dunharrow; Feanor swears his oath after Morgoth stole the Silmaril. What's more - he even invokes the name of Iluvatar, giving it even more significance and power: quote:Then Fëanor swore a terrible oath. His seven sons leapt straightway to his side and took the selfsame vow together, and red as blood shone their drawn swords in the glare of the torches. They swore an oath which none shall break, and none should take, by the name even of Ilúvatar, calling the Everlasting Dark upon them if they kept it not; and Manwë they named in witness, and Varda, and the hallowed mountain of Taniquetil, vowing to pursue with vengeance and hatred to the ends of the World Vala, Demon, Elf or Man as yet unborn, or any creature, great or small, good or evil, that time should bring forth unto the end of days, whoso should hold or take or keep a Silmaril from their possession. Thus spoke Maedhros and Maglor and Celegorm, Curufin and Caranthir, Amrod and Amras, princes of the Noldor; and many quailed to hear the dread words. For so sworn, good or evil, an oath may not be broken, and it shall pursue oathkeeper and oathbreaker to the world's end. This is probably the most powerful oath ever said in the history of Arda. The ones who spoke it were all exceedingly powerful in their own right, their intention was furious wrath and a deadly desire for vengeance, they did it at one of the most significant events in the history of the world, they did it in a ritual context (standing in a single line, swords drawn, saying the words of the oath) and they invoked the name of God Himself and named the most powerful spirits in Arda as their witnesses. No wonder that it would eventually destroy them all, or that Elrond advises Gimli against taking oaths too lightly! Invocation and occasion also have parallels in our world, e.g. when to this day people swear an oath at their inauguration or in front of a judge, both saying "sacred" words in a ritual context (e.g. one hand on the Bible or similar, the other raised upwards) and may invoke the name of God. Another example for the significance of occasion would be the old Catholic folk belief that the blessing given by a newly ordained priest during his first Mass (and only then) is enormously powerful. It's really interesting: The older I get and the more I know about history, theology and anthropology, the more I find myself impressed by and drawn into the world created by Tolkien. The man really knew his stuff.
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Oct 5, 2018 13:40
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That Elrond-Gimli passage there is also interesting because it’s presented as the two them quoting proverbs to one another. Proverbs, like riddles and ritual speech and other highly conserved memes, interested Tolkien a lot, and there are a lot of them in LOTR.
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Oct 5, 2018 13:50
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I may have missed it but there is also magic in speaking and its ability to enchant people and ward off evil.
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Oct 5, 2018 13:52
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euphronius posted:I may have missed it but there is also magic in speaking and its ability to enchant people and ward off evil. It's explicit with Saruman, the description makes it clear he is exerting his power to supernaturally affect Theoden and most of the others. Magic in the more traditional, folklore sense exists as seen in the mountains when Gandalf protects the fellowship but bemoans that he sent up a beacon to his location that other "magic" sensitive beings would see or hear. So while maybe they can indeed cast a fireball at some orcs, it's not a trivial thing to do and would just let the Nazgul zero in on them.
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Oct 5, 2018 14:08
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skasion posted:That Elrond-Gimli passage there is also interesting because it’s presented as the two them quoting proverbs to one another. Proverbs, like riddles and ritual speech and other highly conserved memes, interested Tolkien a lot, and there are a lot of them in LOTR. Yeah, and it also puts me in mind of the old kung-fu master being challenged by an upstart student. Seriously, that takes some stones for Gimli to throw down with fuckin' Elrond in the proverb quoting game. Elrond's patience must have been getting tested at that point (except that Gimli was making some drat valid ripostes).
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Oct 5, 2018 14:27
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euphronius posted:I may have missed it but there is also magic in speaking and its ability to enchant people and ward off evil. There definitely is! Not all speech is magic, though - it needs to fulfil at least one or more of the criteria I mentioned above, I think. I would believe that it would have had much less of an effect if it had been Frodo to speak the Black Speech in Rivendell instead of Gandalf, for example. Otoh Frodo invokes the holy name of Elbereth during a significant occasion (being confronted by the Nazgûl) at a significant location (Weathertop), which constitutes enough of a counterspell to the Nazgûl's evil and power that he (barely) survives the encounter. Not bad for a simple hobbit!
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Oct 5, 2018 14:30
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Bombadil sings pure magic. And old man Willow.
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Oct 5, 2018 14:31
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System Metternich posted:There definitely is! Not all speech is magic, though - it needs to fulfil at least one or more of the criteria I mentioned above, I think. I would believe that it would have had much less of an effect if it had been Frodo to speak the Black Speech in Rivendell instead of Gandalf, for example. Otoh Frodo invokes the holy name of Elbereth during a significant occasion (being confronted by the Nazgûl) at a significant location (Weathertop), which constitutes enough of a counterspell to the Nazgûl's evil and power that he (barely) survives the encounter. Not bad for a simple hobbit! The Witch King also holds up his hand to tell Frodo to shut the gently caress up at the ford of Bruinen and Frodo's tongue cleaves to his mouth as though he's struck dumb. Though whether he's able to do that because of his power or because Frodo is nearly a wraith at that point is uncertain I guess. And of course the blade the Witch King uses is practically sentient (even when it breaks after stabbing Frodo the splinter of it steadily works towards his heart) and has the ability to turn people into wraiths. I really like the way Tolkien handles the concept of magic. It's mysterious and the rules for it are never explained. At first glance you might say it's tied to the supernatural nature of its users. Gandalf with his fires, Saruman and his voice, etc. And yet, the Nazgul were said to be great kings and sorcerers in their day, and they were only mortal men. Also the elves do many wondrous and magical things such as creating the rings of power, palantirs, silmarils, etc. Actually Feanor might almost be considered stronger than Sauron, at least when it comes to crafting. Even Sauron couldn't create things like the palantirs and silmarils. But yeah I enjoy magic more when it's mysterious. GRMM (probably inspired by Tolkien) handles magic in a similar way where the nature of it is less a lot to the imagination. I think it's a more effective way to handle that than making it something everyone understands like it's a d&d spell book or some poo poo.
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Oct 5, 2018 15:28
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Ginette Reno posted:The Witch King also holds up his hand to tell Frodo to shut the gently caress up at the ford of Bruinen and Frodo's tongue cleaves to his mouth as though he's struck dumb. Though whether he's able to do that because of his power or because Frodo is nearly a wraith at that point is uncertain I guess. And of course the blade the Witch King uses is practically sentient (even when it breaks after stabbing Frodo the splinter of it steadily works towards his heart) and has the ability to turn people into wraiths. Regarding mortal sorcerers, didn't the Numenoreans (before their island went all Atlantis) do poo poo closer to the traditional view of "magic" than most of what the Elves do? I certainly remember mention of sacrifices and potions, some (most?) intended to extend life but because they were evil & Iluvatar wasn't into immortality for men it didn't work.
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Oct 5, 2018 15:45
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Pham Nuwen posted:Regarding mortal sorcerers, didn't the Numenoreans (before their island went all Atlantis) do poo poo closer to the traditional view of "magic" than most of what the Elves do? I certainly remember mention of sacrifices and potions, some (most?) intended to extend life but because they were evil & Iluvatar wasn't into immortality for men it didn't work. I believe that's accurate. Though if I'm not mistaken the Mouth of Sauron is said to have learned sorcery from Sauron and is possibly hundreds of years old, so maybe the age extending stuff does work to a degree? Alternatively he's just long lived because he's a Numenorean. In any case it's at least implied that men can do magical things. And we know for a fact that elves can despite elves not being divine spirits like Maiar.
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Oct 5, 2018 15:53
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Extending the life of Men against the will of the gods, in Middle-Earth, isn't impossible, just profane.
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Oct 5, 2018 15:56
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The witch-king’s spell at the ford is a pretty rare case of Tolkien writing from a hobbit POV but not equivocating about magic at all. There’s no “as though” or “as if” here, he simply blasts the poo poo out of Frodo’s defenses against him by force of will.quote:Then the leader, who was now half across the Ford, stood up menacing in his stirrups, and raised up his hand. Frodo was stricken dumb. He felt his tongue cleave to his mouth, and his heart labouring. His sword broke and fell out of his shaking hand. The witch-king will of course go on to enact a pretty similar sort of spell when he smashes the gates of Minas Tirith with his incantations, though on this occasion the narrator does get a bit fishier about it: quote:Then the Black Captain rose in his stirrups and cried aloud in a dreadful voice, speaking in some forgotten tongue words of power and terror to rend both heart and stone. Side note but the Morgul knife isn’t sentient any more than the ring is sentient. In fact quite a bit less so. They’re both machines that afflict people in a predetermined way — and an extremely similar one, though the ring is far more powerful, complex and subtle in means — to achieve a result based on the will of the maker and the will of the victim. Weapons and other machines in Tolkien often take on the qualities or to use the author’s vocabulary, the spirit of their makers and users, which is why the only case of a weapon actually acting as if it were sentient in Tolkien is the case of a guy who is terminally spiritually busted and wishes only for annihilation and death and who had, indeed, directly identified himself with that very weapon. In extreme cases like the Ring (or Melkor cursing the world with his malevolent assertion of power over it) so much of the power and spirit of the “maker” goes into the machine that it almost seems to possess a mind of its own. But it still doesn’t quite, in Tolkien’s understanding of what that means. The ring hasn’t got a soul or a self. Pham Nuwen posted:Regarding mortal sorcerers, didn't the Numenoreans (before their island went all Atlantis) do poo poo closer to the traditional view of "magic" than most of what the Elves do? I certainly remember mention of sacrifices and potions, some (most?) intended to extend life but because they were evil & Iluvatar wasn't into immortality for men it didn't work. “Magic” in some forms is obviously available to men. Boromir’s horn is magic. Athelas is magic. Isildur’s oath with the mountain men is magic as hell. I’m not convinced that Gandalf’s spell of burning werewolves couldn’t be taught to someone — not to just anyone, and probably not even to anyone with great strength of will, like Aragorn, but maybe to someone. Remember, the character of Gandalf was conceived of as an old man and only became an angel in the process of writing LOTR.
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Oct 5, 2018 16:00
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Middle Earth magic seems to be based less out of explicit rules and more out of personal mastery of the self. Frodo can perceive Nenya as he grows more comfortable with the Ring and he is told that he would in fact grow to a small measure of power with the Ring if he pursued it, and I think it’s attributed to the idea that he would gain control over others when he gained control over himself. Saruman’s power is broken because he has delusions of grandure and he can’t match Gandalf the White who has grown in knowledge. Even in the Silmarillion this is done, Fëanor isn’t just a bad dude because he has such a strong spirit, it’s because he’s a master of his craft and of himself. Talk about “knowledge is power!”
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Oct 5, 2018 16:15
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skasion posted:“Magic” in some forms is obviously available to men. Boromir’s horn is magic. Athelas is magic. Isildur’s oath with the mountain men is magic as hell. I’m not convinced that Gandalf’s spell of burning werewolves couldn’t be taught to someone — not to just anyone, and probably not even to anyone with great strength of will, like Aragorn, but maybe to someone. Remember, the character of Gandalf was conceived of as an old man and only became an angel in the process of writing LOTR. Unless Gandalf's abilities with fire are tied to Narya the ring of...fire. Though Gandalf is a Maiar so perhaps not. Obviously Balrogs are of the same kind as Gandalf and they can make fire on their own. And the elven rings aren't meant to be weapons of war. Still the wizard known for skill with fire having an elven ring called the ring of fire does make ya think. I've also often wondered if Galadriel's mirror/the elven cloaks/the phial were things she created with the assistance of her elven ring, or if she was powerful enough in her own right to craft those items.
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Oct 5, 2018 16:21
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Ginette Reno posted:Unless Gandalf's abilities with fire are tied to Narya the ring of...fire. Though Gandalf is a Maiar so perhaps not. Obviously Balrogs are of the same kind as Gandalf and they can make fire on their own. And the elven rings aren't meant to be weapons of war. Still the wizard known for skill with fire having an elven ring called the ring of fire does make ya think. The power of Galadriels ring is pretty always referenced when talking about lorien itself. The whole hidden nature of it, they otherworldly procession of time, the trees with leaves int eh winter, etc is all implied to be her ring. I imagine the more mundane things like the cloaks and magical items are more traditional elven magical crafting. I've always liked how Tolkien created a system where a person can imbue their will into items via practical skill and create things that possess supernatural powers.
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Oct 5, 2018 16:41
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This was an excellent post. Thank you!
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Oct 5, 2018 22:55
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Saurom and Felagund have a singing contest which I guess is meant to involve magic.
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Oct 6, 2018 12:58
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Octy posted:Saurom and Felagund have a singing contest which I guess is meant to involve magic. JRRT 8 Mile.
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Oct 6, 2018 13:47
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