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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:sometimes you just gotta perjure yourself to own the libs The worst part is he lied when it didn't even matter, he could have told the truth and got confirmed anyways but literally couldn't help himself because he's so used to not facing any consequences whatsoever for anything he does
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Oct 6, 2018 15:08
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Grapplejack posted:I don't think the state Dem party has anything left at this point, be it money or support from the national arm. Manchin is really only able to keep his seat because of his own deep pockets / connections in the state. Doesn't mean that he can't be pressured to fall in line. After all, he was the one desperately trying to get democrats to sign a pledge not to campaign against incumbents in primaries.
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Oct 6, 2018 15:17
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West Virginia teachers strikes show that there is plenty of desire for actual representation of the workers in west Virginia, it is just that Manchin and his cronies stand in the way. The best thing is for him to lose.
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Oct 6, 2018 15:33
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Representing organized labor would go against the purpose of the modern Democratic party so I wouldn't exactly hold my breath on that happening.
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Oct 6, 2018 15:37
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joepinetree posted:The best part is that these morons who are "vote blue no matter who" never stop to ask why people like Susan Collins went from voting with her own party 39% of the time in 2012 to doing that 87% of the time now. Was she captivated by Trump's eloquence? Was she convinced that this new republican party is really a moderate party? Or was it the fact that Trump and McConnell have made it clear that they would rather lose a seat than tolerate dissension? Yeah. Manchin is allowed to maintain a LEADERSHIP position within the Democratic Senate while going to the media to say he's undecided on if he will personally vote for Donald Trump using his typical "well what's best for West Virginia" bullshit like anything Trump has done affects West Virginia positively. The idea that a leader is allowed to casually infer that the opposition's party head may be the better bet while pathetically trying to kiss his rear end, especially when that leader is both obviously incompetent, malicious, and willing to ignore legality is an outrageous embarrassment. The pressure you put on him is to fund his primary opponent, remove all his positions within the Senate and force him to ether vote with the party or go independent/Republican like he obviously is threatening. One Senate seat isn't worth the constant insurrection that just makes the overall party look both weak and unwilling to commit to the values it supposedly has. Any Senate that has Manchin as the deciding vote is either going to be beholden to him meaning you will NOT get DACA, better labor conditions, protections for minorities, etc OR one where it will be a Republican controlled when he flips for his personal benefit. What do the Manchin defenders think is going to happen should the Democrats get back into power and then do jack poo poo because Manchin n' friends are there stopping everything. People aren't stupid; we saw the Republicans go crazy with a tiny majority so the line that they can't do anything without 3/5 isn't going to fly a second time. A Democratic government that just sits back and does nothing, merely holding back Republican evil, is no longer acceptable and won't win re-election. Crowsbeak posted:West Virginia teachers strikes show that there is plenty of desire for actual representation of the workers in west Virginia, it is just that Manchin and his cronies stand in the way. The best thing is for him to lose. Pretty much. "Manchin is the ONLY person that can win in West Virginia" is clearly DNC propaganda since he's much more useful as a conservative and a scapegoat than any actual person that wants a more leftwing agenda. Maybe he is and maybe he isn't (his primary opponent got more votes than any of the Republicans in theirs) but maybe it's worth the risk if he is just going to spend the rest of his tenure helping Republicans instead of his own party. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 15:44 on Oct 6, 2018 |
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Oct 6, 2018 15:39
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bird food bathtub posted:Representing organized labor would go against the purpose of the modern Democratic party so I wouldn't exactly hold my breath on that happening. As I said, that is why Manchin must lose, let Ojeda and or Swearingin lead the forces to purify West Virginia.
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Oct 6, 2018 15:39
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I've been thinking about it and it's entirely possible that this vote sinks him. It'll dent his voter base and Trump will most likely throw in harder behind Morrissey, which could eat away his lead.
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Oct 6, 2018 16:17
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The Republican tack on it is gonna be "Didn't support until it was inevitable," while his own voter base is gonna be dented and discouraged. Even if one's read on his vote is the incredibly optimistic "it's just what he had to do," making the gamble that your gains from backing a rapist will offset any losses from your party base is just...it's terrible. It's loving terrible.
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Oct 6, 2018 16:31
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his own voter base likes the fact that he's a centrist who's willing to compromise manchin sucks and his voters suck
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Oct 6, 2018 16:35
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So they can vote for a Republican. It's better to have an enemy who isn't afraid to show his colors than an enemy poised to strangle "his" party from inside by holding it hostage and sabotaging it at every turn.
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Oct 6, 2018 17:30
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steinrokkan posted:So they can vote for a Republican. It's better to have an enemy who isn't afraid to show his colors than an enemy poised to strangle "his" party from inside by holding it hostage and sabotaging it at every turn. i agree, but the idea that this discourages his voter base doesn't strike me as realistic
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Oct 6, 2018 18:18
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Not every Manchin voter is a Trump voter. The idea would be to get the actual Democrats that vote for him combined with people that want actual leftist policy (of which there are some considering the wildcat strike and his virtually shutout of the media primary opponent getting 30% of the vote). Having to rely on Trump voters to maintain a Senate majority is absolutely unsustainable, especially as they get further and further radicalized.
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Oct 6, 2018 18:41
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good luck getting your dream socialist candidate to win in west virginia which went for romney by 28 points and trump by 40 points
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Oct 6, 2018 19:21
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im pretty happy eliminating empty states. Consolidation is all the rage, why not the states?
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Oct 6, 2018 19:22
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Zane posted:good luck getting your dream socialist candidate to win in west virginia which went for romney by 28 points and trump by 40 points Good luck getting your dream libertarian candidate in West Virginia, which went for Johnson by 35 points. It’s almost like the parties, through concerted effort, can change voting patterns.
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Oct 6, 2018 19:30
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voting patterns are definitely changing, but with dems increasingly losing the 'working class' mid-western and upper-midwestern rustbelt, and repubs maybe losing racial melting pots like texas. the reasons for those shifts are architectonic and probably somewhat out of our hands and require more than a pseudo marxist class frame of reference to understand.
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Oct 6, 2018 19:38
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Zane posted:voting patterns are definitely changing, but with dems increasingly losing the 'working class' mid-western and upper-midwestern rustbelt, and repubs maybe losing racial melting pots like texas. the reasons for those shifts are architectonic and probably somewhat out of our hands and require more than a pseudo marxist class frame of reference to understand. Part of the reason those changes are occurring is because those places (along with West Virginia) were traditional union strongholds and Democrats have done very little to protect them. There’s probably a lot of racists who would begrudgingly vote for a dem if they thought it would help them keep a decent job and good benefits, but when both parties mostly offer the same poo poo to the working class they’re gonna vote for racism.
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Oct 6, 2018 19:43
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Then maybe they should start working on it sooner than later instead of just waiting for Manchin voters to figure out then can get Trump Jr as a Senator instead of just President if they love him so much. Also it's not even a socialist it's looking for a generic Democrat that votes party line more often than not. If that's a bar too high the party is already dead anyway.
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Oct 6, 2018 19:46
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Zane posted:voting patterns are definitely changing, but with dems increasingly losing the 'working class' mid-western and upper-midwestern rustbelt, and repubs maybe losing racial melting pots like texas. the reasons for those shifts are architectonic and probably somewhat out of our hands and require more than a pseudo marxist class frame of reference to understand. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_party_strength_in_West_Virginia In modern times WV has been mostly (D). Imagine if they were actually good on issues that working class people cared about; maybe people would still vote for them.
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Oct 6, 2018 19:56
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-"The universe will literally -implode- if we try to hold Manchin and other congressmen to even a slightly coherent agenda voters care about! You loving monster. Maybe onnce we have, like, 75 senators we can approve something with 51 votes, after a LOT of compromise, reaching across the aisle and two-stepping, of course." -"Guys, just stay calm and regroup. The thing to do now is to basically annihilate Russia. I want to see the light fade from the eyes of their cholera-stricken children as they wheeze their shivering last breaths, and if a few nukes have to fly our way for that uropia to dawn, well, them's the breaks." Holding those two ideas together is the operating procedure for a plurality of liberals at this point.
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Oct 6, 2018 20:02
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I can understand the Dem leadership not wanting to lose Manchin from the Senate POV - even if he acts like a fuckstain, having him nominally D means he can help you get committee chairs and majority leader and stuff. The problem is that he makes the party look even more incompetent than they are when you have '60 votes' but can't get cloture for anything without watering down your already runny bills and whatnot. I was understanding of the value of bluedogs for a long time, but I'm finally sick of it. The party is already GOP lite, when they have to cater to people like Manchin to do anything when they actually control the chamber it's time to cut him loose. It wouldn't be as much of a problem if the leadership was more ruthless or whatever, but it's painfully obvious that people like Reid, Schumer, and Feinstein are not willing to actually fight to do things, and I don't see a way to change it. If you don't vote Dem you're effectively handing the county to the GOP - hell, even if you DO vote Dem, the GOP has structural advantages. And if you do vote Dem, you're just giving their leadership a stamp of approval to carry on as they do. Vote for a 3rd party? You just split the vote and elected a Republican. This is longer than I meant it to be; I just don't see how to break out of where we are. The GOP is going to control the Senate another two years at least, and the damage being done right now can't just be reversed with a wave in 2020. The Judiciary is hosed for DECADES.
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Oct 6, 2018 20:22
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yeah but he's a democrat and we need all of the dems we need going into 2018 sorry, it's just the pragmatic thing to do
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Oct 6, 2018 20:42
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Phone posted:yeah but he's a democrat and we need all of the dems we need going into 2018 VoTe blUe nO maTtER WhO
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Oct 6, 2018 20:47
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I pretty much gave up any hope of blue dogs being meaningful when they got near entirely wiped out in midterms anyway. It's almost as if a record that's literally in the majority pro-Republican votes doesn't save you from being called a socialist Pelosi lover who basically wants to bring the USSR back anyway or something.
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Oct 6, 2018 20:49
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Corsair Pool Boy posted:I can understand the Dem leadership not wanting to lose Manchin from the Senate POV - even if he acts like a fuckstain, having him nominally D means he can help you get committee chairs and majority leader and stuff. The problem is that he makes the party look even more incompetent than they are when you have '60 votes' but can't get cloture for anything without watering down your already runny bills and whatnot. This is kind of why I think that there is such a feeling of despair about this appointment. People may not be 100% willing to admit it to themselves or totally realize it, but I think everyone knows deep down the Democrats have been loving up for decades leading to this point and they have absolutely no plan for the future outside of trying to politely ask Republicans to be nice. If they were down on their luck but fighting there would be some hope, but you look at Schumer, Pelosi, Clinton, whoever and you see an out of touch dinosaur who clearly doesn't care what happens. Like what do we have to hope for should the Democrats even get a mega wave? Tread water as Schumer and his friends allow the Republicans to hold more judicial seats hostage? Deport more immigrants to court racists? Roll back more worker's protections to get sweet donor money? Ignore rich criminals to get a ticket to billion island once they get voted out? Pass another Blue Lives Matter bill? We are being absolutely failed by our incompetent leaders at practically every level which is compounded by them not willing to even think about retiring for a newer generation to take over and using dirty tricks to do so. They would die in their chairs like McCain rather than allow a bit of their power to be taken. There's seemingly no one coming to help which is why this is all so terrifying and people can sense that even with the media saying that this is all just whatever and the problem is the two sides can't come together as the people in control descend further into open fascism. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Oct 6, 2018 |
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Oct 6, 2018 20:50
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Zane posted:voting patterns are definitely changing, but with dems increasingly losing the 'working class' mid-western and upper-midwestern rustbelt, and repubs maybe losing racial melting pots like texas. the reasons for those shifts are architectonic and probably somewhat out of our hands and require more than a pseudo marxist class frame of reference to understand. It is impossible to know how much of those changes are due to immutable things and how much are due to poor decisions on the part of the Democratic Party, so it's highly irrational to default to an assumption that the Democratic Party changing wouldn't help things (or help them much/enough). The narrative that the Democrats becoming not-bad wouldn't help only helps those who want to preserve the status quo, and I can't really comprehend why someone would want to default to assuming that's the case.
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Oct 6, 2018 20:59
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working people also care about being xenophobic, and accruing special benefits for themselves--like everyone else--and taking back their country, and so on. it was only possible to preserve an illusion otherwise in the 1930s where 25% of the population was unemployed and from the 1940s-70s when america was undisputed economic hegemon of the world and there was no huge conflict between different interest groups ('everyone' being restricted to whites because this was mostly before jim crow was overthrown). the big american unions, historically, have always predominantly been fiefdoms of white (semi)skilled workers who are culturally reactionary and hostile to interlopers. the broad-minded, pseudo-materialist, critical posture, in this situation, is to argue for some kind of economic protectionist regime--because only this will preserve the industrial base that these traditional unions depend upon. also: decoupling economic protectionism from cultural xenophobia. but i see no chance, for complicated reasons, of the dem party being structurally capable of pursuing either of these postures. i'm not sure if protectionism and xenophobia are possible to disconnect; and i'm not sure if protectionism is a good economic strategy in the long run. trump has already, besides, taken ownership of this policy terrain. and everything hostile to trump is now 'good' on the left. Zane fucked around with this message at 21:27 on Oct 6, 2018 |
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Oct 6, 2018 21:12
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Corsair Pool Boy posted:I can understand the Dem leadership not wanting to lose Manchin from the Senate POV - even if he acts like a fuckstain, having him nominally D means he can help you get committee chairs and majority leader and stuff. The problem is that he makes the party look even more incompetent than they are when you have '60 votes' but can't get cloture for anything without watering down your already runny bills and whatnot. The party is complicit as a whole, the Manchins, Liebermans and Bredesdens of the country merely provide a face to blame for the party's deference to capital. https://twitter.com/OsitaNwanevu/status/1048669419117920257
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Oct 6, 2018 21:25
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Booourns posted:The worst part is he lied when it didn't even matter, he could have told the truth and got confirmed anyways but literally couldn't help himself because he's so used to not facing any consequences whatsoever for anything he does Well he wasn't proved wrong.
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Oct 6, 2018 21:42
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Zane posted:voting patterns are definitely changing, but with dems increasingly losing the 'working class' mid-western and upper-midwestern rustbelt, and repubs maybe losing racial melting pots like texas. the reasons for those shifts are architectonic and probably somewhat out of our hands and require more than a pseudo marxist class frame of reference to understand. There's a wide gulf between "run a socialist candidate in WV" and "reward a member of your party for his disloyalty." Susan Collins went from voting with her party less than half the time during most of the Obama admin to voting with republicans 87% of the time. Did she have a change of heart? Or was it simply that McConnell and Trump have made it clear that they'd rather lose a seat than tolerate disloyalty?
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Oct 6, 2018 21:47
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Office Pig posted:The party is complicit as a whole, the Manchins, Liebermans and Bredesdens of the country merely provide a face to blame for the party's deference to capital. Just about every Senator cares way more about their co workers being able to eat lunch in peace than any amount of suffering or death they directly cause.
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Oct 6, 2018 21:49
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Office Pig posted:The party is complicit as a whole, the Manchins, Liebermans and Bredesdens of the country merely provide a face to blame for the party's deference to capital. A cabal of sociopathic monsters act like sociopathic monsters, you say?
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Oct 7, 2018 02:43
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https://twitter.com/kathygriffin/status/1048576013389651970
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Oct 7, 2018 02:49
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lmao that's a new land speed record on grift.
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Oct 7, 2018 02:52
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I had your back after the whole decapitated head of Trump thing, but come on Kathy.
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Oct 7, 2018 03:13
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Corsair Pool Boy posted:I can understand the Dem leadership not wanting to lose Manchin from the Senate POV - even if he acts like a fuckstain, having him nominally D means he can help you get committee chairs and majority leader and stuff. The problem is that he makes the party look even more incompetent than they are when you have '60 votes' but can't get cloture for anything without watering down your already runny bills and whatnot. The judiciary has been hosed for decades, but liberals have overlooked this because Kennedy was "good" on abortion (actually, no) while being terrible elsewhere
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Oct 7, 2018 03:14
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like Bush v. Gore is old enough to be disenfranchised from voting, what's up
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Oct 7, 2018 03:16
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I could have been into this, but really, $25 for a generic print t-shirt with shipping up to 3 weeks? CustomInk can do bulk lots of shirts for like $5 each. Edit: Get your custom "Impeach Brett" mugs from Shutterfly for $10. Roadie fucked around with this message at 03:24 on Oct 7, 2018 |
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Oct 7, 2018 03:21
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Zane posted:good luck getting your dream socialist candidate to win in west virginia which went for romney by 28 points and trump by 40 points  Gonna happen quite soon actually. Also hope Manchin loses and that in a decade he and his entire family are getting the Puyi treatment. Wait Zane is a libertarian.  Yeah going to be fun with you in struggle sessions.Those really did do wonders to libs.
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Oct 7, 2018 03:24
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Radish posted:This is kind of why I think that there is such a feeling of despair about this appointment. People may not be 100% willing to admit it to themselves or totally realize it, but I think everyone knows deep down the Democrats have been loving up for decades leading to this point and they have absolutely no plan for the future outside of trying to politely ask Republicans to be nice. If they were down on their luck but fighting there would be some hope, but you look at Schumer, Pelosi, Clinton, whoever and you see an out of touch dinosaur who clearly doesn't care what happens. Like what do we have to hope for should the Democrats even get a mega wave? Tread water as Schumer and his friends allow the Republicans to hold more judicial seats hostage? Deport more immigrants to court racists? Roll back more worker's protections to get sweet donor money? Ignore rich criminals to get a ticket to billion island once they get voted out? Pass another Blue Lives Matter bill? I think I'm finally coming to terms with and accepting that Chris Hedges is right and continued participation in electoral politics is a wasted effort. We are at a point where every branch of our government no longer has any claim to legitimacy, only a claim to force. The Democrats are either a party of incompetent, tone death, aristocrats, controlled opposition or frankly both and are completely unable to provide any alternative or resistance to the Republicans. We're not getting out of this without a realignment. We're not getting out of this to somewhere better without some sort of non-violent revolution. Any forward progress is going to have to come by organizing locally outside of electoral politics. Where I am right now honestly is trying to come to terms with what that actually means.
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Oct 7, 2018 03:55
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