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business hammocks posted:It would make you wrong and you would sound like you were running interference for him because you’d be denying the truth in a really obvious way. Pull up Doug no I'm not. I only know Doug from his videos on Peterson and that he did an interview with Lindsay Shepard. Considering how he was extremely generous to Shepard, I guess it makes sense that he would give Nagle the benefit of the doubt too.
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Oct 7, 2018 05:59
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Mr Interweb posted:I'm not. I only know Doug from his videos on Peterson and that he did an interview with Lindsay Shepard. Considering how he was extremely generous to Shepard, I guess it makes sense that he would give Nagle the benefit of the doubt too. zero books is the publisher of Nagle's book
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Oct 7, 2018 06:05
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Ghost Leviathan posted:I feel you could probably sum up any good points the book had with 'Alienated young men (and others) with disinterested parents, unrestricted internet access as their primary form of socialisation, being completely ignored/written off by every political movement except the far right and having little to no investment in society outside of escapism is a recipe for disaster'. There's also a strong argument in there for a return to class-based politics and critique of capitalism, as the nazis are going that way because they see a false choice between the glittering total atomization of the silicon valley tech daddy dreamworld and incoherent identitarian resistance that can't imagine a distinction between capitalism and the existence of black people. The book argues that an absence of socialist critique has weakened left and right, and that some 2000s kids (left and right) would have benefited from knowing about marxism before they descended into ironyland.
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Oct 7, 2018 06:11
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Mr Interweb posted:I'm not. I only know Doug from his videos on Peterson and that he did an interview with Lindsay Shepard. Considering how he was extremely generous to Shepard, I guess it makes sense that he would give Nagle the benefit of the doubt too. He's generally a very subtle thinker and communicates complex ideas clearly. I have no idea what he's up to here, as he should be getting off twitter to call Nagle immediately and ask her what the gently caress she's doing.
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Oct 7, 2018 06:13
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Zero Books has a bad habit of accepting alt right arguments at face value, but they have gone back and pointed out that they're all in bad faith - including Lindsay Shepard.
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Oct 7, 2018 06:35
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yikes
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Oct 7, 2018 06:40
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business hammocks posted:There's also a strong argument in there for a return to class-based politics and critique of capitalism, as the nazis are going that way because they see a false choice between the glittering total atomization of the silicon valley tech daddy dreamworld and incoherent identitarian resistance that can't imagine a distinction between capitalism and the existence of black people. Yeah, that pretty much sums up what I figured; without socialist critique, 'the left' becomes the vampire's castle of bourgeois wokelords that doesn't distinguish between rich and poor white men except that the latter are easier targets, and consider themselves to have the automatic allegiance of everyone else with no further thought. It honestly sounds pretty prescient, given that's exactly what we're seeing; a resurgent left finding more or less success against ossified neoliberalism by appealing to the vast demographics that the liberals had taken for granted and/or written off, forging a coherent and populist message against feeble and incoherent accusations of bigotry for not adhering to decorum.
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Oct 7, 2018 07:01
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its absolutely disengenuous and stupid to focus on an ephemeral stereotype of tumblr as the reason the left is weak instead of widespread political suppression. black and queer protest movements have been the most prominent in recent history while Occupy completely disintegrated. also these attacks on "Identity Politics" ruining the left via infighting are incredibly hypocritical at best, its the same poo poo but people like Nagle pick a different side. Organise a workplace or something
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Oct 7, 2018 07:19
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Wrestlepig posted:its absolutely disengenuous and stupid to focus on an ephemeral stereotype of tumblr as the reason the left is weak instead of widespread political suppression. black and queer protest movements have been the most prominent in recent history while Occupy completely disintegrated. They're a symptom, not the cause.
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Oct 7, 2018 07:29
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:lol he always does that. he picks on some of the smaller people and women and then hides behind the cops when things get hairier not as exciting as khabib vs. mcgregor but still worth noting.
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Oct 7, 2018 08:52
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Identity politics is about oppressions that mostly benefit straight white cismen and it should be no surprise that the further you deviate from straight white cisman the less tolerance you'll see for variations on "idpol is a distraction from class politics" and you'll find more understanding of the truth that identity politics is class politics.
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Oct 7, 2018 10:46
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:i should add that there's video and pics going around now of a proud boy getting his face busted right after this happened with tiny standing in the back acting innocent. not gonna post it because i don't take pleasure in spreading that kind of thing, but a lot of the twitter antifascists seem encouraged by that, as a few months ago one of the big proud boy bruisers dropped an antifa in portland Some of the videos of Vegas after that fight looked like far right rallies https://twitter.com/MoneybadgerG/status/1048807933864230912 Except there were no police shooting gas canisters at peoples heads
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Oct 7, 2018 11:04
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He leaned right into that punch.
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Oct 7, 2018 11:39
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Pope Guilty posted:Identity politics is about oppressions that mostly benefit straight white cismen and it should be no surprise that the further you deviate from straight white cisman the less tolerance you'll see for variations on "idpol is a distraction from class politics" and you'll find more understanding of the truth that identity politics is class politics. 
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Oct 7, 2018 14:54
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people who say idpol is a distraction from class politics are basically the lefts version of all lives matter.
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Oct 7, 2018 15:00
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CharlestheHammer posted:people who say idpol is a distraction from class politics are basically the lefts version of all lives matter. The UC Davis cultural center's various state-sanctioned ethnic identity groups pay their student interns minimum wage, and their student leadership refused to support a $15 minimum wage in the city proper (which would not affect the state university employees) because better wages going to workers in the town would mean they'd probably have to pay their interns more. This took me like two or three years to get over, it really shook my understanding of organizing, because I obviously did something wrong to get that result.
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Oct 7, 2018 15:51
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CharlestheHammer posted:people who say idpol is a distraction from class politics are basically the lefts version of all lives matter. The thing is that any separation between the two is artificial, and as the above post suggests, more often goes the other way; class identity has been surgically removed from identity politics, leaving it broken and frequently self-contradictory. This being entirely on purpose so exploitation can be dressed up in progressive rhetoric.
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Oct 7, 2018 16:21
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Ghost Leviathan posted:The thing is that any separation between the two is artificial, and as the above post suggests, more often goes the other way; class identity has been surgically removed from identity politics, leaving it broken and frequently self-contradictory. This being entirely on purpose so exploitation can be dressed up in progressive rhetoric. yeah but a lot of leftist don’t see it that way and basically demand minorities abandon Idpol and then are shocked when minorities aren’t flocking to them.
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Oct 7, 2018 16:25
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CharlestheHammer posted:yeah but a lot of leftist don’t see it that way and basically demand minorities abandon Idpol and then are shocked when minorities aren’t flocking to them. Can you cite any personal organizing experience in which this happened offline?
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Oct 7, 2018 16:27
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Martin Random posted:Can you cite any personal organizing experience in which this happened offline? I’m not talking about that I’m talking about online leftists, especially here. it happened a lot while Trump is being elected. honestly the whole idea of idpol being some distraction is basically something only online leftist really do. the ideas guys that know exactly how to fix the left if only someone listened to them. CharlestheHammer has issued a correction as of 16:43 on Oct 7, 2018 |
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Oct 7, 2018 16:32
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Uranium 235 posted:lol jp is getting eaten by his own lobsters that ratio 
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Oct 7, 2018 16:35
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The problem with identity politics is being rooted in identity itself, and all the ways that society pre-empts people from identifying with out groups. It's not like a distraction from bigger concerns, it's fundamentally an incomplete politics. The whole concept of allyship for instance is fatally flawed, because alliance networks are conditional. If support for a particular group becomes inconvenient for your own personal interests, then you're expected to throw them under the bus. This kind of personal orientation to politics naturally ends up being antisocial. You have to be able to get people to change their identities to something that's socially constructive, instead of being a static grouping dictated by the world as it is.
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Oct 7, 2018 16:53
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https://twitter.com/EmilyGorcenski/status/1048926271907004416
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Oct 7, 2018 17:07
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:The problem with identity politics is being rooted in identity itself, and all the ways that society pre-empts people from identifying with out groups. It's not like a distraction from bigger concerns, it's fundamentally an incomplete politics. The whole concept of allyship for instance is fatally flawed, because alliance networks are conditional. If support for a particular group becomes inconvenient for your own personal interests, then you're expected to throw them under the bus. This kind of personal orientation to politics naturally ends up being antisocial. Not really disagreeing with this, but class identity/consciousness also has the same issue.
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Oct 7, 2018 17:08
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fool_of_sound posted:Not really disagreeing with this, but class identity/consciousness also has the same issue. Except working class is close to everyone you meet unless you yourself are a billionaire. There's lovely worker identities where you're better than other workers because you're performing physical labour or are highly educated but that's turning a job into an identity, not working class identity.
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Oct 7, 2018 17:12
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fool_of_sound posted:Not really disagreeing with this, but class identity/consciousness also has the same issue. Of course. That's why you need a politics that's ideological and not just self-oriented. The problem with identity politics is that identities are informed by the framework of society as it is, and we should be conceiving of society as it should be so we can actually move beyond it.
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Oct 7, 2018 17:18
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namesake posted:Except working class is close to everyone you meet unless you yourself are a billionaire. There's lovely worker identities where you're better than other workers because you're performing physical labour or are highly educated but that's turning a job into an identity, not working class identity. People are also a greater whole than their class experience, though. If you can't account for everything else then you're going to cultivate some blind spots. The whole promise of communism for instance is to eventually reach a stage where people can dispense with classes altogether, and be liberated to be what they want within socially constructive bounds.
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Oct 7, 2018 17:23
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Real political consciousness requires a theory of what society should be: what the individual's duties to society is, what society in turn owes the individual, and what axioms should guide society through the problems it encounters.
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Oct 7, 2018 17:36
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fool_of_sound posted:Real political consciousness requires a theory of what society should be: what the individual's duties to society is, what society in turn owes the individual, and what axioms should guide society through the problems it encounters. *Air horn* REAAAAAAAL POLITICAL CONSCIOUSNESS HOURS
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Oct 7, 2018 17:38
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https://twitter.com/classiclib3ral/status/1048874079581884417
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Oct 7, 2018 18:56
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That guy’s sick. He’s got a pathological need for negative attention so he can respond like some kind of wise bridge-builder, like twitter munchausen syndrome or something.
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Oct 7, 2018 19:14
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Besides, I think the hotter take is 'America deserved 9/11'. The take you think is hot is cold, solid, and reflective as polished marble. America deserves a series of humiliations followed by unmistakable defeat and full rehabilitation.
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Oct 7, 2018 19:18
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well now that's interesting
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Oct 7, 2018 19:34
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also extremely interesting in there about the shields and azzmador's security crew
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Oct 7, 2018 19:39
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shes really good at this
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Oct 7, 2018 19:43
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CharlestheHammer posted:I’m not talking about that I’m talking about online leftists, especially here. So "pink haired SJWs are driving people from the left" but with tankies
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Oct 7, 2018 19:48
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jesus christ lol
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Oct 7, 2018 20:16
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Azzmador (Robert Warren Ray of Tyler, TX) has a long rap sheet and has been in the white-power movement for ages. He also did a lot of writing for the Daily Stormer. The security crew Emily mentions is three men from Texas who tagged along with him to Charlottesville. Azzmador is standing in the back smoking a cigarette in this pic: Two of them, holding the red Sonnenrad shields ^ are William "Billy" Williams (left) of Bowie, Texas and Robert Pollard ("Redbeard" or "Whitestredbeard") also of Bowie.  A third guy who also has a reddish beard is Wil Atteberry ("swing_heavy_hammer") of Nocona, which is near Bowie. These guys were closely associated with Vanguard before the Charlottesville rally, with Azzmador and Williams appearing together during a demo in Houston in summer 2017:  Most of the guys in this pic later went over to form Patriot Front. The guy on the left holding the bullhorn is Thomas Rousseau, Patriot Front's leader. Williams is standing in back, center right.
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Oct 7, 2018 20:17
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Azzmador broke down in a car of six fash in Arkansas on the way back from Charlottesville, nobody local would help him, so he and his friends started posting their location on the public part of their forums and on their discord begging for help, and we just missed intercepting him by an hour. So close. We were going to pick up azz alone to take him to a "repair shop," if we could.
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Oct 7, 2018 22:08
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Maybe don’t post at quite that level of detail about things (although it could also be fine—I am ignorant of the law regarding threats or confessions). mpc and a few other nazi-adjacent sites began as SA offsites for banned racists and harassers. There are for sure some still watching the forums.
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Oct 7, 2018 22:15
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