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As if they didn't have some sort of mandate to have Spock in the show from the very start.
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Oct 7, 2018 03:45
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Sodomy Hussein posted:The Prime Directive is in effect "We can exploit them for our own purposes--knowledge or resources--but we are forbidden to help them until they are like us." This is a lower standard than we now have for unintelligent animals. Throughout the story of Star Trek it is riddled with exceptions where not even that standard holds. I don't know of any resource taking, but observation isn't removing anything from the observed. What do you suggest they do? Find iron age civilizations and just beam in and give them replicators, phasers, and sonic showers? Do you think that we should allow "uncontacted tribes" on Earth right now to remain uncontacted, or do we set up a starbucks and an amazon dot com kiosk there ASAP (it will be a sweatshop, actually)
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Oct 7, 2018 04:51
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Sodomy Hussein posted:The Prime Directive is in effect "We can exploit them for our own purposes--knowledge or resources--but we are forbidden to help them until they are like us." This is a lower standard than we now have for unintelligent animals. Throughout the story of Star Trek it is riddled with exceptions where not even that standard holds. literally the only way to read that is if you ignore everything about the plot of the movie where that happens. you're pretending that the whole enchilada was blessed by everyone all the way up the chain and would be considered generally morally acceptable behavior for starfleet. there's zero evidence to support your fuckin wacko inflation of this crappy movie into a critique of star trek as a propaganda tool for the western capitalist devil. i mean, for gently caress's sake it probably is exactly that, but your argument sucks rear end.
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Oct 7, 2018 05:41
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Drink-Mix Man posted:As if they didn't have some sort of mandate to have Spock in the show from the very start. i swear to god i thought it was a digitally de-aged ashton kutcher in a fake beard
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Oct 7, 2018 05:43
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:literally the only way to read that is if you ignore everything about the plot of the movie where that happens. you're pretending that the whole enchilada was blessed by everyone all the way up the chain and would be considered generally morally acceptable behavior for starfleet. there's zero evidence to support your fuckin wacko inflation of this crappy movie into a critique of star trek as a propaganda tool for the western capitalist devil.
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Oct 7, 2018 06:09
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jng2058 posted:Warp is an excellent line because without it, all you can do is fart around in your own solar system or maybe kick out generation ships or something. Its the space equivalent of house arrest. Once you leave your yard and start poking around other people's yards or leaving your toys on the sidewalk, that's when the rest of the neighborhood has to notice you. Maybe they have appeared in some episode I haven't seen, but one thing I have always wanted from Trek is a really advanced species that doesn't have FTL capability. They could have subspace radios and replicators and giant generation ships and the like but just no actual FTL and see how the Prime Directive dealt with that situation. They would almost certainly already know about the existence of aliens and the Federation from picking up transmissions.
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Oct 7, 2018 06:59
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The Prime Directive is a pile of poo poo as presented in TNG and after. Like, as written it prevents the Federation from stepping in and stopping literally any level of atrocity that a protected planet is experiencing. Genocide? The law says we can't do poo poo. Mass starvation? We can make literally unlimited food but our hands are tied. Thermonuclear war? Sure, our phasers could probably shoot down all of those ICBMs but that might interfere with their development! It's this cruelly Darwinian approach to interstellar relations and it's ridiculously appalling.
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Oct 7, 2018 08:02
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Senor Tron posted:Maybe they have appeared in some episode I haven't seen, but one thing I have always wanted from Trek is a really advanced species that doesn't have FTL capability. They could have subspace radios and replicators and giant generation ships and the like but just no actual FTL and see how the Prime Directive dealt with that situation. They would almost certainly already know about the existence of aliens and the Federation from picking up transmissions. Can't say I recall it ever coming up, even in the novels, though there's so many of those that no one's read 'em all. Zurui posted:The Prime Directive is a pile of poo poo as presented in TNG and after. Like, as written it prevents the Federation from stepping in and stopping literally any level of atrocity that a protected planet is experiencing. Genocide? The law says we can't do poo poo. Mass starvation? We can make literally unlimited food but our hands are tied. Thermonuclear war? Sure, our phasers could probably shoot down all of those ICBMs but that might interfere with their development! It's this cruelly Darwinian approach to interstellar relations and it's ridiculously appalling. That's why I liked the old explanation for it from the early days. Because the PD kinda sucks for post-scarcity replicator era TNG Trek, but makes sense in a traumatized "we done hosed up and now we're scared of loving up again" pre- and early TOS era.
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Oct 7, 2018 08:10
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Zurui posted:The Prime Directive is a pile of poo poo as presented in TNG and after. Like, as written it prevents the Federation from stepping in and stopping literally any level of atrocity that a protected planet is experiencing. Genocide? The law says we can't do poo poo. Mass starvation? We can make literally unlimited food but our hands are tied. Thermonuclear war? Sure, our phasers could probably shoot down all of those ICBMs but that might interfere with their development! It's this cruelly Darwinian approach to interstellar relations and it's ridiculously appalling.
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Oct 7, 2018 08:13
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Senor Tron posted:Maybe they have appeared in some episode I haven't seen, but one thing I have always wanted from Trek is a really advanced species that doesn't have FTL capability. They could have subspace radios and replicators and giant generation ships and the like but just no actual FTL and see how the Prime Directive dealt with that situation. They would almost certainly already know about the existence of aliens and the Federation from picking up transmissions. There were no PD issues with contacting the asteroid starship from TOS?
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Oct 7, 2018 08:23
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Nessus posted:So they should go full The Day The Earth Stood Still on everybody eh? Humanitarian intervention has always worked out so well historically, after all.
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Oct 7, 2018 08:27
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Space Belgians
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Oct 7, 2018 08:29
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Angry Salami posted:Humanitarian intervention has always worked out so well historically, after all. What would make more sense is if the Prime Directive was the default order to the fleet and there was in fact an office of interventions to whom you had to make cases about particular targeted interventions for particular ends.
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Oct 7, 2018 08:32
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Angry Salami posted:Humanitarian intervention has always worked out so well historically, after all. The only humanitarian intervention we see now is post-colonial and operates under that paradigm: we're devoting our limited resources to one of the "poor" parts of the world with exactly zero historical awareness. The Federation can offer real solutions to humanitarian crises. I mean, isn't Trek's entire deal that we, as a species, have moved beyond that poo poo?
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Oct 7, 2018 08:39
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FlamingLiberal posted:In ‘Blood Oath’, Jadzia is also going against Trill culture which says that a new host is not supposed to take up the affairs of a previous one. On top of her being a Starfleet Officer going off to murder a guy. That was a weird, weird episode. Sisko's all NO you're not going on leave to go kill a guy, are you insane?, and Dax is all 'no I'm going, how you react to it is your problem' and Sisko's all, well, drat, then nothing's said or done about it besides Meaningful Looks across Ops in the dying seconds of the episode. Looks like DS9 has a discipline problem, hmm :smugcardassian:
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Oct 7, 2018 09:19
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so I could say that I finally figured out what this god damned cube is doing. Get well Lowtax.
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Drink-Mix Man posted:On a similar note, I had "Pen Pals" on in the background the other day. That one takes a lot of flak for the supposed "let's sit back and watch them die" interpretation of the PD, but it jumped out at me that the whole episode is actually debating whether the Prime Directive actually says that in the first place. The episode ends with them making the right call and Picard thanking Data for reminding them to not to treat that law as rigid laissez-faire dogma when it comes to valuing life. It actually seemed like... a good take? "laws are not morality" is an excellent take. quote:What do you suggest they do? Find iron age civilizations and just beam in and give them replicators, phasers, and sonic showers? Do you think that we should allow "uncontacted tribes" on Earth right now to remain uncontacted, or do we set up a starbucks and an amazon dot com kiosk there ASAP (it will be a sweatshop, actually) The "uncontacted" peoples in many cases are contacted all the time. We don't keep our existence or secrets from them. For example, the famous group in the Andaman Islands that shoots arrows at anyone who comes around is largely left alone, but we've attempted to send them food at times and check if they are OK after natural disasters. They've accidentally received access to metalwork, which they find valuable and use. This is all terrible according to the Prime Directive. Go 0 mph or 100 is not what's being asked here. quote:literally the only way to read that is if you ignore everything about the plot of the movie where that happens. you're pretending that the whole enchilada was blessed by everyone all the way up the chain and would be considered generally morally acceptable behavior for starfleet. there's zero evidence to support your fuckin wacko inflation of this crappy movie into a critique of star trek as a propaganda tool for the western capitalist devil. They cannot write a story where the Prime Directive works or where someone doesn't violate it. Several of the characters agree that it is stupid or immoral. Many more ignore it--the lovely movie about the Fountain of Youth is hardly the only time this has come up. Major exceptions to the Prime Directive are created constantly: - We can plant doppelganger spies throughout the society to monitor their development (TNG) - Actually there's a Rule Zero that supersedes it (Omega Directive, voyager lol) - We need to actually save these people (Pen Pals) And so on. Star Trek introduces it, we find out it really sucks as we keep watching Star Trek, but the big fail is that there are still characters that swear by it. It fails basic tests of logic and the philosophy of Star Trek itself, and it's actually the thing Quark should be complaining about when it comes to the self-superiority of the Federation. It ultimately only applies as a rule when no one can think of a reason to ignore it, which means it's not a rule, it's empty rhetoric to justify lovely behavior. Star Trek shouldn't be sending the message that there are tiers of worthiness between peoples, according to technological development or similarity of cultural values to the Federation.
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Oct 7, 2018 11:22
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Senor Tron posted:Maybe they have appeared in some episode I haven't seen, but one thing I have always wanted from Trek is a really advanced species that doesn't have FTL capability. They could have subspace radios and replicators and giant generation ships and the like but just no actual FTL and see how the Prime Directive dealt with that situation. They would almost certainly already know about the existence of aliens and the Federation from picking up transmissions. I think the rule isn't so much "has warp drive" specifically, that's just the usual practical expression of it. I think if a culture is or will immediately be aware of other worlds on its own, is the actual criterion for contact.
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Oct 7, 2018 14:46
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I think a couple of TOS episodes at the very least play with the idea, there's one where the Enterprise crew covertly visit an Earth-like planet on the brink of space travel and have a conversation with the leader who's keeping it all a secret for now, and another where the Klingons are already active on an otherwise primitive planet, and the Federation ends up getting involved because as far as they're concerned the damage is done. I think the deal is that the Federation, despite accusations otherwise, makes an effort to not be a monoculture and treasures the history and social development of its member worlds, and thus doesn't want to absorb or influence civilisations at the point where their own culture and identity would get lost in the shuffle. And the general idea of the Prime Directive is a hardline anti-colonial and anti-interventionism policy, which should be and remains very relevant for all too obvious reasons.
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Oct 7, 2018 14:55
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spincube posted:That was a weird, weird episode. Sisko's all NO you're not going on leave to go kill a guy, are you insane?, and Dax is all 'no I'm going, how you react to it is your problem' and Sisko's all, well, drat, then nothing's said or done about it besides Meaningful Looks across Ops in the dying seconds of the episode.
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Oct 7, 2018 15:01
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spincube posted:That was a weird, weird episode. Sisko's all NO you're not going on leave to go kill a guy, are you insane?, and Dax is all 'no I'm going, how you react to it is your problem' and Sisko's all, well, drat, then nothing's said or done about it besides Meaningful Looks across Ops in the dying seconds of the episode. Between that and Kira joining anti-Bajoran-government rebellions like four times and then being welcomed back into DS9 by the end of the episode, yeah, Sisko seemed remarkably lenient about what he'd let his officers take extended leave for. Pakled fucked around with this message at 15:09 on Oct 7, 2018 |
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Oct 7, 2018 15:06
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Ghost Leviathan posted:I think a couple of TOS episodes at the very least play with the idea, there's one where the Enterprise crew covertly visit an Earth-like planet on the brink of space travel and have a conversation with the leader who's keeping it all a secret for now, and another where the Klingons are already active on an otherwise primitive planet, and the Federation ends up getting involved because as far as they're concerned the damage is done. The second example you cite from TOS there (“A Private Little War”) is a deeply ironic episode in which theoretically benevolent Federation visitors come to believe they are forced to empower the natives to fight a proxy war for them against the Klingons and deliberately destroy their societies to further this goal. It directly invokes comparison with US intervention in Vietnam and ends with Kirk bitterly likening himself to Satan. It’s about how such an interaction with another society, no matter how good in intent, can end in total disaster because of the inbuilt inequality of the relationship.
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Oct 7, 2018 15:09
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Pakled posted:Between that and Kira joining anti-Bajoran-government rebellions like four times and then being welcomed back into DS9 by the end of the episode, yeah, Sisko seemed remarkably lenient about what he'd let his officers take extended leave for. I just watched the episode where Worf borks up a mission to extract a spy from Dominion territory, all because he couldn't sacrifice Dax I'm glad Sisko gives him a dressing down but then he ends it with "btw I'd do the same"
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Oct 7, 2018 15:29
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The Omega directive was shown and handled stupidly (lol Voyager indeed) but the idea that there is this ultra-rare but potentially sector-killing disaster that must be dealt with above and beyond all other considerations is a fairly interesting one and not a good argument against the Prime Directive. Even very important rules can have exceptions, and the PD isn't merely a philosophical point like the Categorical Imperative, it's a written regulation and written regulations are going to be imperfect. They will run against situations not previously considered and once they do, not making a decision isn't a valid moral choice - it's a decision either way, and Starfleet Captains are de facto (if not du jure, we really don't know) empowered to make that call. The fact that Starfleet Captains are so empowered and autonomous really does mean that they should and do use their judgement when it comes to violating the text of the PD in favor of some other need, and the Admirality then decides if it was justified and what to do about it.
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Oct 7, 2018 15:40
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I really liked SFDebris's take on the prime directive in TNG. If you look at all the times it is invoked, the directive applies to 3 types of scenarios: 1) don't interfere with the development of a pre-warp civilization; 2) don't interfere in the internal politics of a civilization; and 3) let Wesley be executed for stepping on flowers.
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Oct 7, 2018 16:13
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Sodomy Hussein posted:They cannot write a story where the Prime Directive works or where someone doesn't violate it. This is where your whole weird problem falls apart. Of course they CAN tell that story, they just don't because that would be loving boring and this is an entertainment product, not a totally sweet grad school essay that turns pop culture on its head by viewing it through the lens of dialectical materialism, maaaaan. The universe as written portrays the Prime Directive as a perfectly fine idea that works fine in the vast majority of cases. What we get to see are the exceptions to the rule, because that's what creates dramatic tension. If Star Trek society was perfect, it would be a boring, lovely show. Source: TNG season 1.
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Oct 7, 2018 16:29
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JeremoudCorbynejad posted:I just watched the episode where Worf borks up a mission to extract a spy from Dominion territory, all because he couldn't sacrifice Dax IIRC he mentions it was a bad idea to send a husband-wife team on such a critical mission? (especially sending an alien who's particularly vulnerable to bug bites to a jungle planet) Or maybe that's just the obvious lesson.
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Oct 7, 2018 16:30
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Pakled posted:Between that and Kira joining anti-Bajoran-government rebellions like four times and then being welcomed back into DS9 by the end of the episode, yeah, Sisko seemed remarkably lenient about what he'd let his officers take extended leave for. 6 months in the brig for attempted genocide, garak  Personally I think sisko just is just extremely done. And honestly I would only ever have loved if they leaned into that more, especially early on when stakes were lower. Let's not forget also Season 1 (?) Quark being paid off to have Jadzia worm-murdered and everyone like, forgets or something, or doesn't really care. poo poo, I don't even know the point of Odo trying to bust Quark for crimes, because apparently he just marches him to the principal's office and Sisko goes "just don't do it again young man" Pick fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Oct 7, 2018 |
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Oct 7, 2018 16:37
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Zurui posted:Genocide? The law says we can't do poo poo. quote:Mass starvation? We can make literally unlimited food but our hands are tied. quote:Thermonuclear war? Sure, our phasers could probably shoot down all of those ICBMs but that might interfere with their development! Are you advocating, right now, for the UN to step into the US of A, tear down it's government, install sane electoral practices, and use armed troops to oversee a proper election? Because that sure as poo poo sounds like what you're describing. How well do you think that would work out? Here's a hint: ask Iraq.
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Oct 7, 2018 17:00
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Note that the Federation does give aid if asked, and accepts and settles refugees on a world suited to their needs.
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Oct 7, 2018 17:14
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TheCenturion posted:Ok, so on the planet Glorp, the Glorpians on one side of the main continent are exterminating Glorpians on the other side, due to, oh, lets say religious beliefs. You're saying that it would be better for the Federation to step in, tell the Glorpians that their religious beliefs are crap, and maintain an armed occupation for at least two or three generations? You're presenting a false dilemma. They could offer resettlement elsewhere.
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Oct 7, 2018 17:56
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Bucswabe posted:I really liked SFDebris's take on the prime directive in TNG. If you look at all the times it is invoked, the directive applies to 3 types of scenarios: 1) don't interfere with the development of a pre-warp civilization; 2) don't interfere in the internal politics of a civilization; and 3) let Wesley be executed for stepping on flowers. Having rewatched that episode fairly recently, it really could have been salvaged if they had dropped the b-plot about their weird space probe god and Picard had just chewed scenery about justice for 30 minutes and diplomacy saved the day.
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Oct 7, 2018 17:57
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DrNutt posted:Having rewatched that episode fairly recently, it really could have been salvaged if they had dropped the b-plot about their weird space probe god and Picard had just chewed scenery about justice for 30 minutes and diplomacy saved the day. Picard should have walked over to the planter and stomped the rest of the plants and weed on them. How's that for diplomacy you trashy hippies
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Oct 7, 2018 17:58
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Pakled posted:Between that and Kira joining anti-Bajoran-government rebellions like four times and then being welcomed back into DS9 by the end of the episode, yeah, Sisko seemed remarkably lenient about what he'd let his officers take extended leave for.
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Oct 7, 2018 18:05
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FlamingLiberal posted:I will give them more leeway with Kira since she is Bajoran Militia Yeah Sisko could request a different XO liaison but I don't know if he could actually fire her
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Oct 7, 2018 18:08
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I could see the situation as being that early on he didn't have the juice to get someone else, and later on he could ask for a replacement (and likely get one) but he knows that the provisional government would send someone who is functionally useless but more "politically reliable".
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Oct 7, 2018 18:27
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TheCenturion posted:Ok, so on the planet Glorp, the Glorpians on one side of the main continent are exterminating Glorpians on the other side, due to, oh, lets say religious beliefs. You're saying that it would be better for the Federation to step in, tell the Glorpians that their religious beliefs are crap, and maintain an armed occupation for at least two or three generations? Well first we have to know, which have black on the right side of their face, and which have white?
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Oct 7, 2018 18:33
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He likes Kira even if she’s a pain in the rear end. She’s cool.
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Oct 7, 2018 18:34
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^ yeah what she saidFarmer Crack-rear end posted:I could see the situation as being that early on he didn't have the juice to get someone else, and later on he could ask for a replacement (and likely get one) but he knows that the provisional government would send someone who is functionally useless but more "politically reliable". He's required to be professionally indignant, but actually really likes Kira (and Dax) being strong independent women who stick to their principles and knows that he's just as insubordinate when he thinks it's appropriate
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Oct 7, 2018 18:37
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The Bloop posted:^ yeah what she said
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Oct 7, 2018 18:41
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Isn't it Kira who tries to resign in that episode with the old guy building a wood stove or whatever and Sisko says "I could get someone to fill your position... but replace you??"
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Oct 7, 2018 18:42
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