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i'm not even a stickler for graphics, i just think the jupiter hell aesthetics and the route he's going with it will get in the way of how easy doomrl was to play and how responsive it was
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Oct 9, 2018 21:00
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DisDisDis posted:I mean, I love Doom 2 graphics as much as the next person but you're not allowed to sell them if you're not Bethesda, and I don't think they're the core of what makes the game good. We're posting in the roguelike thread, if it plays well who cares. From what I tried of it so far, the camera needs to zoom out a bit to cover full line of sight, since sometimes you can only see half of an enemy at the top and bottom of the screen. It desperately needs to allow numpad controls (the game supports diagonal movement in a single turn, but currently only uses arrow keys for movement so you have to hit both buttons quickly or it will fail to register). It also needs better interruptions of queued actions when dangerous things happen (enemy revealed, enemy shooting, enemy hitting you, so on). Nothing that can't be fixed in an open alpha/beta as of yet, but I'll wait to try more until it gets more polish. Edit: It also swaps the weapon system to three slots only (sidearm, main, heavy) instead of whatever you want to try to carry in your backpack, which I'm really apprehensive about since that definitely lacks the Doom feel of being a walking armory. It prevents you from carrying around anything that shares the same slot, since it auto unequips and drops whatever you had to pick up the new thing on the ground. You also don't have the option to stick lighter stuff in bigger slots, so you can't choose to forgo heavy weapons in exchange for being able to carry a double shotgun and an assault rifle at the same time. Floodkiller fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Oct 9, 2018 |
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Oct 9, 2018 21:24
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DisDisDis posted:I mean, I love Doom 2 graphics as much as the next person but you're not allowed to sell them if you're not Bethesda, and I don't think they're the core of what makes the game good. We're posting in the roguelike thread, if it plays well who cares. I dunno, aesthetics matter. ASCII games get a bit of a pass because at that level of abstraction it's like a book, the visuals are what you provide with your imagination. But once you do incorporate art assets, they become gameplay elements as well. Both in terms of pure playability (as the previous two posts mentioned) and also in the fantasy you are portraying. It's like when a book gets translated to a movie and all of a sudden it's nothing like what your imagination had created.
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Oct 9, 2018 21:33
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are you folks just nostalgic for Doom? or are you genuinely trying to argue that "space marine shoots monsters" is an incredibly unique idea. i agree that the graphics and sounds from Doom are very iconic in the history of video games, but you have to admit that it really isn't the most groundbreaking premise. even the story is just the archetype of "powerful person's greed unleashes evil and some poor schmuck has to deal with it", which is thousands of years old
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Oct 9, 2018 22:01
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I don't think anyone's saying the problem is that their assets aren't authentic Doom IP, the problem is they're dark and desaturated and mushily-animated and it's hard to see what's going on. e: it is, on the other hand, rather lazy that they just copied everything about Doom and filed the numbers off. It's not a Baron of Hell, it's a Demon Baron... that just happens to act and look the same way. megane fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Oct 9, 2018 |
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Oct 9, 2018 22:12
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Lutha Mahtin posted:are you folks just nostalgic for Doom? or are you genuinely trying to argue that "space marine shoots monsters" is an incredibly unique idea. i agree that the graphics and sounds from Doom are very iconic in the history of video games, but you have to admit that it really isn't the most groundbreaking premise. even the story is just the archetype of "powerful person's greed unleashes evil and some poor schmuck has to deal with it", which is thousands of years old no, i'm saying that taking a relatively pared-down and snappy roguelike and feeling the need to replace everything with what feels like 3d shovelware unity assets that have nothing that makes them stand out is not really a recipe for success it's cool if the dev wants to make money off of it and make it their own thing but nothing about it is even remotely memorable, and it feels like they're just trying to ride off the idea of people knowing that they made doomrl to want to buy it which, to be frank, is probably not going to pull in the cash to make up for the time spent on it. there's a lot of roguelikes and roguelike-related games out there these days and jupiter hell is doing nothing unique, which is my #1 issue first and foremost. for all i know it'll come out and somehow becomes the most successful goddamn thing in the world for whatever inexplicable reason but i'm just going off of what i've seen for what. literally years now?
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Oct 10, 2018 02:34
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i thought there was an ascii mode included for jupiter hell? sorry i'm very out of the loop on the development of that game but i thought the grimdark 3D assets could be disabled
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Oct 10, 2018 02:58
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Yeah the thing that sucks about Jupiter Hell is that it looks really boring and there are plenty of not boring roguelikes that are also free, as well as roguelikes that do interesting things with the genre that cost money like Tangledeep and Qud.
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Oct 10, 2018 03:19
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Lutha Mahtin posted:i thought there was an ascii mode included for jupiter hell? sorry i'm very out of the loop on the development of that game but i thought the grimdark 3D assets could be disabled There had better be! I've never played DoomRL in tiles and I'm not about to start now. Mostly I viewed the Jupiter Hell KS as a donation as thanks for DoomRL, if it's bad I'll just have to play that I guess.
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Oct 10, 2018 04:13
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https://twitter.com/epyoncf/status/1049969608407552000?s=19 Careful guys, he's onto us!
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Oct 10, 2018 11:45
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StrixNebulosa posted:https://twitter.com/epyoncf/status/1049969608407552000?s=19 its ok we like rouge gaem. make more rouge gaem.
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Oct 10, 2018 11:49
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My take on Jupiter Hell is that the art style isn't to my taste, but I like the 90s aesthetic they're aiming for. If the gameplay can get even slightly close to how good DoomRL is, it'll be fun to play...and even if it fails, hell. Like rchandra said, I was happy to throw money at the KS as thanks for DoomRL. Also there still aren't enough sci-fi roguelikes. There are like, four of them and I want more.
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Oct 10, 2018 11:52
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I have confidence Jupiter Hell will get there in the fullness of time, especially as they get into the real visceral meat of the game and systems beyond the current macabre skeletal framework.
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Oct 10, 2018 13:06
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StrixNebulosa posted:Also there still aren't enough sci-fi roguelikes. There are like, four of them and I want more. So, the entire output of Arcen Games? 
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Oct 10, 2018 15:19
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:So, the entire output of Arcen Games? God I wish Arcen would go back and polish their one roguelike Off the top of my head, good/interesting sci-fi roguelikes - Cogmind - AuroraRL - DoomRL - that old one, privateer? what was it called, you're kirk, you fly around and land on planets - Bionic Dues And like, that's it! From there on you get edge cases like Caves of Qud, or garbage like Sword of the Stars: The Pit. There's unfinished stuff like Aliens RL, or that XCOM RL Cogmind dude was working on, and just... I want me more sci-fi themed roguelikes, a girl has needs that aren't being met.
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Oct 10, 2018 15:38
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StrixNebulosa posted:God I wish Arcen would go back and polish their one roguelike Prospector? Privateer was the disappointing Elite-inspired Wing Commander spinoff. Also, Caves of Qud isn't an "edge case" and deserves to be in that list.  Your main point is right, though, there aren't nearly enough. There's Gearhead 1/2, I guess. If you include roguelites that lets you bring in Transcendence and Everspace. ToxicFrog fucked around with this message at 15:59 on Oct 10, 2018 |
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Oct 10, 2018 15:55
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FTL, and if you're accepting roguelites then Starward Rogue is decent enough (if a bit shortlived). Hell, I guess the old Mac game Rescue! counts as a sci-fi roguelite, kind of. Procgen universe with permadeath, you fly around in the ST:TNG Enterprise saving colonies from Romulans, and if you choose the right mission settings then you can fight a Borg cube. I haven't played the game in decades, but apparently it still exists.
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Oct 10, 2018 16:04
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StrixNebulosa posted:God I wish Arcen would go back and polish their one roguelike -PRIME -The Slimy Lichmummy is apparently good though I haven't played it. -There are some coffee-break 7drl-ish ones like MassEffectRL too
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Oct 10, 2018 16:09
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StrixNebulosa posted:https://twitter.com/epyoncf/status/1049969608407552000?s=19 if he's still reading here and there, i mostly just want to say that my posts come from a place of wanting it to succeed because i like seeing roguelikes do well. i'm just afraid that it might not stick out well enough in the crowd given how packed it can be these days, but i'm fully ready to admit that i could be wrong about my assessment.
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Oct 10, 2018 16:18
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ToxicFrog posted:Prospector? Privateer was the disappointing Elite-inspired Wing Commander spinoff. There's also a Privateer semi-roguelike. I think it's just called Privateer? It was cool as gently caress while it lasted, with realtime space combat and boarding actions and music and everything, but I believe it eventually got abandoned. e: ASCII Sector! Angry Diplomat fucked around with this message at 16:45 on Oct 10, 2018 |
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Oct 10, 2018 16:27
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ToxicFrog posted:Prospector? Privateer was the disappointing Elite-inspired Wing Commander spinoff. I remember playing Transcendence a decade ago and liking it, is it still any good? I know there's a paid version on Steam now.
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Oct 10, 2018 16:30
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C-Euro posted:I remember playing Transcendence a decade ago and liking it, is it still any good? I know there's a paid version on Steam now. It's been seeing steady-but-slow development effort and is considerably more polished now than it used to be.
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Oct 10, 2018 16:40
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Angry Diplomat posted:There's also a Privateer semi-roguelike. I think it's just called Privateer? It was cool as gently caress while it lasted, with realtime space combat and boarding actions and music and everything, but I believe it eventually got abandoned. Yeah, this game was excellent. Even unfinished, it's still worth playing. The trading/econ side of things is so much stronger than it was in Privateer, as is the mission variety. Like DoomRL, it's much better than its source material (Strike Commander/Privateer were among my favourite DOS games) - and it does that without even really changing genre (DoomRL moving to turn-based)!
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Oct 10, 2018 16:56
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Claiming DoomRL is "much better" than Doom is a spicy take.
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Oct 10, 2018 17:07
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What do you all make of Bionic Dues? I played a few maps but it never clicked for me, but the party concept is very cool. I like the overworld map too.
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Oct 10, 2018 17:45
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From what I remember of discussion here, it devolves into rocket tag where the entity that outranges the other wins. Unless I'm thinking of a similarly named game.
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Oct 10, 2018 18:00
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Sage Grimm posted:From what I remember of discussion here, it devolves into rocket tag where the entity that outranges the other wins. Unless I'm thinking of a similarly named game. Nope, that's basically accurate. Early on you can afford to take a hit or two from specific enemy bots, but in general you should be emphasizing weapons with the range, AOE, and/or damage to one-shot bots before they're able to get a shot off. The ninja exo which can attack from stealth also counts for this, as do traps and turrets; an exo with high trapskill can make ridiculously effective use of turrets. It's a decently fun game once you understand that, but it's still plagued by too much loot with way too many affixes (it's Diablo-style loot), and the standard campaign is really too long even if you make use of the "taunt the robots into launching their final attack early" missions.
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Oct 10, 2018 18:12
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:It's a decently fun game once you understand that, but it's still plagued by too much loot with way too many affixes (it's Diablo-style loot), and the standard campaign is really too long even if you make use of the "taunt the robots into launching their final attack early" missions. Diablo style randomized loot is the bane of my existence. It's the one thing I hate about ToME, a game which I otherwise adore. I hate having to parse mountains of trash to try and find the gold, I hate that I can't plan out my runs to get specific gear for specific builds, and I hate how bland procgen loot always is. At least ToME has interesting uniques that I can store for later builds but that poo poo ruined Nioh for me (an otherwise awesome game) and it makes me groan every time I see it.
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Oct 10, 2018 18:44
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tome 4 is really cool for a few reasons, one of the main ones being how entirely unique all the multitude of classes are and how they can shape the way you play, but holy gently caress do i not care for the mountain of stats that have to be waded through every time something drops
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Oct 10, 2018 18:47
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Resistances specifically are annoying as poo poo. Stats could be condensed a fair bit and resistances by at least half without losing anything of value except full-screen item tooltips.
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Oct 10, 2018 18:55
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Bionic Dues is interesting. Because of the 'rocket tag' nature of combat, it's more about remembering the specific quirks of each enemy type and how best to use your 4 Exos to engage them safely. Almost every enemy has weird AI quirks about how they'll engage and attack you, and of course the tricky part is how multiple enemy types mix with each other and how to make a safe engagement out of that. Loot is very important of course, because if you can take an enemy out in 2 shots instead of 3, that's more ammo for later, and surviving a hit is very useful as well. I always felt it was a bit more tactical than most roguelikes, though.
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Oct 10, 2018 19:34
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ToxicFrog posted:Prospector? Privateer was the disappointing Elite-inspired Wing Commander spinoff. Caves of Qud is too an edge-case, you spend a good chunk of that game in caves, fighting things with swords or bows. (also yeah yeah I know it has robots and it's post-apocalyptic, but it's more like it's off being weird than being strictly sci-fi. Which is not to say that it's not cool as hell, it's just not what I want here.)Prospector, that's the one! Thank you! I also completely forgot about Gearhead. As I understand it tho, the dev is making Gearhead Caramel and I see him posting about it on twitter, which is cool. I... should look up Transcendence and Everspace, but from a cursory look they already look like they're not going to hit that itch of roguelike sci-fi that I want. There's lots of sci-fi in other genres, but not enough in the turn-based tactical puzzle maze death that is roguelikes. TooMuchAbstraction posted:FTL, and if you're accepting roguelites then Starward Rogue is decent enough (if a bit shortlived). The problem with FTL is that it makes me very angry when I play it, so I don't let myself play it anymore. It can be the best or whatever, but god drat it's a game that I do not click with. I'm gonna try Rescue though, that sounds baller as hell. Thanks! Angry Diplomat posted:There's also a Privateer semi-roguelike. I think it's just called Privateer? It was cool as gently caress while it lasted, with realtime space combat and boarding actions and music and everything, but I believe it eventually got abandoned. Thank you! RPATDO_LAMD posted:-PRIME Thank you!  Yay a bunch of stuff to look up this afternoon.e: I firmly believe that Bionic Dues could have been one of the really goods if not greats in the genre if Arcen had given it as much love and care as they did to AI War. Its graphic and audio design would still have been divisive, but it's a genuinely interesting little game that does interesting things with the traditional roguelike mechanics. StrixNebulosa fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Oct 10, 2018 |
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Oct 10, 2018 19:49
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Johnny Joestar posted:tome 4 is really cool for a few reasons, one of the main ones being how entirely unique all the multitude of classes are and how they can shape the way you play, but holy gently caress do i not care for the mountain of stats that have to be waded through every time something drops Klaus Kinski posted:Resistances specifically are annoying as poo poo. Stats could be condensed a fair bit and resistances by at least half without losing anything of value except full-screen item tooltips. Yeah, hard agree. I'll still keep coming back because the rest of the game is so great and I love DarkGod in all his 90's uber-nerd glory (I can't hate anybody that unironically begins every post with "Hello my minions") but just uggh every time a non-unique drops and I have to sit there for three whole minutes parsing the drat thing.
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Oct 10, 2018 20:03
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Diablo-style loot is extremely good and the biggest problem with ToME's itemization is that a couple of specific fixedarts are way better than randarts have any chance of being. Which ironically is a problem in most Diablo games too, despite "Diablo-style" being shorthand for randarts with lots of random affixes. e: Well, also that 99% of low-level affixes suck and you really only care about HP at the very beginning, and HP, Armor, Stun Resist, and Confusion Resist for the early-middle. But that's more of a math issue than a conceptual one. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Oct 10, 2018 |
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Oct 10, 2018 20:09
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StrixNebulosa posted:The problem with FTL is that it makes me very angry when I play it, so I don't let myself play it anymore. It can be the best or whatever, but god drat it's a game that I do not click with. I 100% know what you mean, and it's why I only play FTL on easy. I can't play it on harder difficulties because they make me too mad, but on easy it's a fun little Star Trek simulator. Tuxedo Catfish posted:Diablo-style loot is extremely good and the biggest problem with ToME's itemization is that a couple of specific fixedarts are way better than randarts have any chance of being. The difficulty with diablo-style loot in my experience is that you have to make a ton of weird comparisons, like, is +36% range better than +6% global damage resist? Would I rather be able to see enemies from further away, or be better at disarming traps? Is this item that has a whole bunch of crappy affixes better than this item that has a single good affix? The problem gets exacerbated when (as in Bionic Dues) both the quantity of loot generated and the amount of equipment slots you have is large. There's space for games that are primarily about equipment optimization, but most roguelikes are not intended to be that kind of game, and they often don't do it well. I feel like the problems introduced by Diablo-style loot can be surprisingly subtle and a lot of devs don't give it the degree of attention it requires to really shine. Diablo 2 (I haven't played 3) mostly makes it work by having any given item either a) have only two affixes, b) be hand-coded, or c) be rare enough that you aren't often having to decide if it's worth using. That means comparisons tend to be easy or infrequent.
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Oct 10, 2018 20:38
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Diablo 2 (I haven't played 3) mostly makes it work by having any given item either a) have only two affixes, b) be hand-coded, or c) be rare enough that you aren't often having to decide if it's worth using. That means comparisons tend to be easy or infrequent. Ehh. Rares and Crafted items are pretty significant in high-level Diablo 2 (in a few specific slots) and those have significantly more than 2 affixes. The fact that rares and crafted items are rare and expensive (respectively) and thus you're rarely making comparisons between them isn't really a good thing, it just means that blue items are meaningless vendor trash. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 20:44 on Oct 10, 2018 |
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Oct 10, 2018 20:41
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The biggest problem I have with Diablo-loots is that you spend so much time sorting through and dealing with trash. Tome4 at least makes it tolerably simple to dispose of the piles and piles of garbage loot but hoping eternally for that one broken item roll can be tiresome when you have to search 300 containers* to get something the right color and tier to even consider seriously. I'm also in the "FTL makes me mad" club, though mostly the last boss, which is just bullshit. Mostly it is bullshit because you must spend the entire game building carefully towards the limited number of available strats for dealing with the boss, and not trying to explore cool stuff or trying different ship configurations. I mean to try that rework mod, the Captain's Edition or whatever and see if it at least improves the quest chaining. *elite monsters count as mobile, weaponized loot containers for this exercise
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Oct 10, 2018 20:45
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:I feel like the problems introduced by Diablo-style loot can be surprisingly subtle and a lot of devs don't give it the degree of attention it requires to really shine. This right here is the key for me. As with all procgen, it can be excellent, sure. But it can also be an easy excuse to make a giant list, put literally every idea that pops into your head on it, and then shrug and call it a day 'cause the randomization will fix everything, right? And thus you get pages of crappy weapons, in types you can only technically equip, each one stuffed with pages of meaningless nickel-and-dime bonuses to random stats you don't use and skills you don't have and resistances that show up rarely enough that it's not worth stacking them and on and on and on. Just generate everything and let the player waste their life sorting through the pile. If you're going to have affixes, they should all be big and impactful (which means aggressively curating the lists you pick from), each item should have 2-3 at most, and if an item is blatantly useless it should either not drop or get auto-quashed (e. g. by auto-selling it or making the name grey or something).
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Oct 10, 2018 21:52
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dead cells has a fairly alright compromise where every item will have a small set of buffs/whatever, but they're all very easy to contextualize things and there's not a million stats thrown around in minute values because all the stats scale based on the actual level of the item and not because of really shoddy and haphazardly-implemented random dice rolling not that i find everything about dead cells perfect by any stretch, but if a game is going to have generated modifiers on items i want them to actually be meaningful and not a bunch of word and number garbage. there's outright no situation where anyone would be able to tell me it's actually good in tome4. because it's incredibly not, in any form. some people enjoy that kind of thing but it actively gets in the way of the rest of playing the game, especially when the stats behind which abilities and skills to level up is way more interesting and important.
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Oct 10, 2018 22:05
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i think jupiter hell looks rad
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