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Relentless posted:I could see for realism having a roll under 10 but still missing not do any damage but that's just fiddley and serves no purpose other than to be asinine and gently caress over martials even more. What's "realistic" about this?
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Oct 10, 2018 21:59
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MonsterEnvy posted:Ok Thanks for clarifying that for me.
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Oct 10, 2018 22:07
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AlphaDog posted:What's "realistic" about this? My guess is that 10 is the magic number because that's a creature's base AC without any bonuses from any source, which I guess is not so much about "realism" with respect to reality as it is with respect to the game rules. I wouldn't do things this way if I were implementing a "damage on miss" rule, but I think that's the rationale. I'll comment that 4e also introduced the concept of "bloodied" which implies that someone at half health has taken some amount of injury to bleed from, but I think it's sensible for HP to be some vague and nonspecific mix of stamina, luck, and blood. And geez every day in this thread reaffirms that the worst part of D&D has always been the players.
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Oct 10, 2018 22:14
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Damage on a miss immediately gets really hard to adjudicate edge cases with and its a weird thing to get stuck on Like do i have to start tracking how many inches away my melee swings are so that its a miss vs someone out of range? Ok fine reach solves that i guess but how he hell do you deal with someone hiding behind hard cover vs a hundred archers? Bla bla bla The real solution is to combine the damage and attack rolls so youre never not doing damage
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Oct 10, 2018 22:14
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AlphaDog posted:In context, what else could it possibly mean? kidkissinger posted:Anyone got any tips on killing liches? Party is about to hit level 11 and I'm trying to optimize for this in the very likely event that Acererak tries to gank us. Might as well tell you Acererak is tougher then the average Lich. MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 22:31 on Oct 10, 2018 |
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Oct 10, 2018 22:21
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mastershakeman posted:Damage on a miss immediately gets really hard to adjudicate edge cases with and its a weird thing to get stuck on The thing that makes it tricky is that D&D only has AC as the main axis of defense, which means you'll "miss" a lot trying to hit someone weighed down by their full plate and shield. That's not to say you didn't make contact, but on a miss your attack might have been deflected by their armor or blocked by their shield or parried by their weapon, while a hit means you slipped past their defenses and cut deep where it hurts. This is kind of implied by the rules, but not really outright stated in official materials. In that sense, damage on a "miss" means your swing glancing off their armor or bouncing off their shield still hurts a bit; it's just a lot less than if you actually "hit." As for why D&D does things this way instead of separating attack evasion from damage reduction, I think it goes back to its naval wargaming roots or something dumb like that, where your shots either bounced off the enemy hull or punched through and dealt damage. By now, it's too much of a sacred cow to really change it. edit: why the hell does our fantasy role playing game use rules from a naval war simulator lightrook fucked around with this message at 22:31 on Oct 10, 2018 |
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Oct 10, 2018 22:25
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mastershakeman posted:Damage on a miss immediately gets really hard to adjudicate edge cases with and its a weird thing to get stuck on in 13th age if you attack someone and miss you do damage to them, it's straightforward (though we forget to add it half the time, and I don't think we've ever bothered fictionalising it)
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Oct 10, 2018 22:27
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MonsterEnvy posted:I imagine those that would object would be DM's that want their monsters to last longer and for the party to continue without rest for longer. Damage on a miss means that the monsters and PC's are certain to lose hp each round and that in turn means that battles have a set turn limit and some randomization is lost. I am of the opinion that Monsters and PC's don't need to get hit each round, though I am not opposed to damage on a miss, namely I think it would work well on some abilities or effects. Nobody has ever said "damage on a miss" and meant "literally every attack by every PC and every monster always reduces hit points".
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Oct 10, 2018 22:29
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AlphaDog posted:Nobody has ever said "damage on a miss" and meant "literally every attack by every PC and every monster always reduces hit points". That's exactly how I interpret it and if they mean something else they should say that I think the key to movkng away from two rolls with shield + armor is treating that ac as damage reduction. So a stupid goblin always rolls d6, but a shield is -1 , chain -2 and plate -4. But adventures would get +1 damage per level or whatever, and a giant would have 10 damage reduction naturally
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Oct 10, 2018 22:33
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mastershakeman posted:Damage on a miss immediately gets really hard to adjudicate edge cases with and its a weird thing to get stuck on For the archers, do they have a chance to hit you? If not, they're not rolling to hit so there's no miss so there's no damage. If they do have a chance to hit then yeah, 100 guys all shooting arrows at you are indeed going to loving murder some guy hiding behind a barrel. Even without DOAM 100 guys means 5 nat 20s means 5x2d8 + mod + regular hits a round.
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Oct 10, 2018 22:33
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AlphaDog posted:Nobody has ever said "damage on a miss" and meant "literally every attack by every PC and every monster always reduces hit points". True. But that is one path it can go and how some people interpret it, I think 13th Age does it that way as well. (Could be wrong I have not seen a ton of 13th Age, though I have seen a lot of Damage on a miss stuff in it.) I personally prefer the systems were it is just certain abilities that do it. mastershakeman posted:Damage on a miss immediately gets really hard to adjudicate edge cases with and its a weird thing to get stuck on I don't think Damage on a miss in 4e worked like that. Some abilites just stated that even if the attacked failed, the enemy still took like quarter or half damage. Something like (I made up this ability on the spot no idea if this is already a thing.) "Unavoidable Strike. Hit:The fighter does 4d8 + Str Mod Damage to the target creature. Miss: The target takes 2d8 damage." MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Oct 10, 2018 |
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Oct 10, 2018 22:34
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AlphaDog posted:Nobody has ever said "damage on a miss" and meant "literally every attack by every PC and every monster always reduces hit points". Yeah it's a player facing mechanic, to make misses sting less. Though some threatening monsters could do it, just like with the escalation dice in (again) 13th age.
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Oct 10, 2018 22:34
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It's also worth pointing out that damage on a miss is one of those things that breaks the brains of the simulationists. Butbutbut if damage on a miss peasant can take level of fightman and theoretically kill Orcus with a feather. PCs are trivially killed by enemy PCs (ignoring entirely that the rules shouldn't allow for PvP at all because PvP is horribly broken in basically every D&D system). Like... a: no, for SO many reasons. And b: if we take that premise as read... how awesome is that? This is a world where no god is safe from an army of angry peasants. Work with it. Make your world function within the mechanics.
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Oct 10, 2018 22:41
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thespaceinvader posted:...no god is safe from an army of angry peasants. Literally the premise of the best game of 5th ed I played in.
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Oct 10, 2018 22:45
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Reach heaven through violence.
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Oct 10, 2018 22:57
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If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him with chip damage
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Oct 10, 2018 23:02
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Conspiratiorist posted:What's a diviner cleric? I'd been playing Halfling cleric of Ptah for nearly a year, and while I wonder whether the grass is greener re: Divination Wizards the kit came with enough tricks to keep the party alive and surprise the DM now and then.
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Oct 10, 2018 23:16
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thespaceinvader posted:It's also worth pointing out that damage on a miss is one of those things that breaks the brains of the simulationists. Like the other said, that's great though. A level of Fightman isn't just being a peasant who can wield a sword kinda well, it's immediate qualification for being one of Sparta's 300 royal bodyguards. And if even Ares is looking at those motherfuckers and goes, "Eh, maybe not mess around with those guys", then that's ok with me.
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Oct 10, 2018 23:19
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Yah the whole 'peasant fighter' thing is one of the 'so many reasons'. But this all falls into the whole 'D&D brain damage' thing where people simply *cannot process* the idea that there's something that can be done by entirely mundane people that can't be done by LITERALLY EVERY MUNDANE PERSON. Is it possibel for a 20th level fighter with no magical abilities to chokeslam a dragon? EVERY PEASANT CAN CHOKELSAM DRAGONS U SAY?!!! RIDICULOUUUUUUUUUUS But even though in some systems literally anyone can learn to shitfinger, it's somehow not a problem for a mage to be able to throw fireballs.
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Oct 10, 2018 23:23
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MonsterEnvy posted:The Starspawn are pretty cool, they have a lot of synergy together, and can make for very interesting and tough encounters. They are pretty strong though, if you are low level in Dragon Heist only like the Grues and maybe Manglers will be usable without risking party death. Oh no I was more wanting them to take the fight to them as a secondary thing after the main campaign. As in "Play through Dragon Heist" and by that time my players seems fairly set on setting up cultic headquarters in the city, so I thought about having a fight between them and another cult, except in this case it turns out to be Star Spawn who are attempting to summon The Hungering Earth to inhabit one of the 12 guardian statues and also to kill off any demonic cults in the city. That way there can be a big fight between them and everyone else, culminating in (hopefully) a fight between the star spawn and many of the cultist leadership. I am still learning how to weight encounters though, so I wanted to check here first.
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Oct 10, 2018 23:26
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Josef bugman posted:Oh no I was more wanting them to take the fight to them as a secondary thing after the main campaign. Do you have Xanathar's Guide to Everything. The encounter builder there is pretty good.
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Oct 10, 2018 23:44
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I appreciate how 5e has already needed to revise and publish new encounter design rules to reach the level of "mediocre", a grand improvement from "completely unplayable." GOOD JOB MEARLS
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Oct 10, 2018 23:46
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the xanathar one is pretty good yea
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Oct 10, 2018 23:48
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Arivia posted:I appreciate how 5e has already needed to revise and publish new encounter design rules to reach the level of "mediocre", a grand improvement from "completely unplayable." GOOD JOB MEARLS Crawford made the Encounter Builders. And it was agreed the first one was pretty bad and confusing. To the point the devolpers did not use it. Also this is not the first game to revise it's encounter design rules. And I would say actually trying to fix a bad encounter design system is better then just leaving it as is.
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Oct 10, 2018 23:51
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MonsterEnvy posted:Crawford made the Encounter Builders. And it was agreed the first one was pretty bad and confusing. To the point the devolpers did not use it. When you cannot publish a useable set of benchmarks for challenges in your high production values core rulebooks your game is poo poo, hth
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Oct 10, 2018 23:52
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Arivia posted:When you cannot publish a useable set of benchmarks for challenges in your high production values core rulebooks your game is poo poo, hth The original one is no worse then Pathfinder or 3.5 encounter building system.
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Oct 10, 2018 23:57
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Arivia posted:When you cannot publish a useable set of benchmarks for challenges in your high production values core rulebooks your game is poo poo, hth I dunno I like the game I think it's good
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Oct 10, 2018 23:58
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MonsterEnvy posted:The original one is no worse then Pathfinder or 3.5 encounter building system. Those were usable dude. Those didn’t have the developers going “yeah this sucks” and producing revised rules in a supplement. By the way, do you know whose job it is to examine the work of the people below him and make absolutely sure the end product is playable? The lead designer, aka Mearls.
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Oct 11, 2018 00:00
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Arivia posted:Those were usable dude. Those didn’t have the developers going “yeah this sucks” and producing revised rules in a supplement. By the way, do you know whose job it is to examine the work of the people below him and make absolutely sure the end product is playable? The lead designer, aka Mearls. Yes those were usable. Not great but usable. The 5e original system was usable too, but they felt it was not up to task and made a better alternate system. Which works well and I am not going to complain about getting a better system. I would rather bugs and mistakes be patched then simply left the way they are. Mearls is not a great designer for encounter. He relies more on feel, it's why Crawford is the rules guy. The fact that he is not great at rules development seems to be why he has taken more of a back seat manager position, and has little to do with the books.
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Oct 11, 2018 00:07
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MonsterEnvy posted:The original one is no worse then Pathfinder or 3.5 encounter building system. It's a shame d&d has never had a solid, easy to use, and reliable encounter builder they could have built off. Ah well.
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Oct 11, 2018 00:07
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Splicer posted:A bar so low it's basically on the ground. Yeah. Which was my point. But the Xanathar's system works pretty well. And I heard 4e's system was pretty good.
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Oct 11, 2018 00:09
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I must admit I don't understand what the numbers "really" mean in the sections of the monster manual and there certainly seems to be some discrepancy in them, but I resolve that by running through a couple of rounds with the characters sheets and seeing what comes out the other side!
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Oct 11, 2018 00:10
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Josef bugman posted:I must admit I don't understand what the numbers "really" mean in the sections of the monster manual and there certainly seems to be some discrepancy in them, but I resolve that by running through a couple of rounds with the characters sheets and seeing what comes out the other side! Which numbers?
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Oct 11, 2018 00:11
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MonsterEnvy posted:Crawford made the Encounter Builders. And it was agreed the first one was pretty bad and confusing. To the point the devolpers did not use it. And yet you spent years claiming that there was nothing wrong with it, and getting worked up when people would criticize it.
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Oct 11, 2018 00:11
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AlphaDog posted:And yet you spent years claiming that there was nothing wrong with it, and getting worked up when people would criticize it. Look, he's swallowed the party line so far it comes out the other end! @MonsterEnvy: The developers not trusting their own system at all is not "usable." That's pretty much the definition of unusable actually, when you produce something you cannot or will not use yourself. Also good job swallowing some more delusions and ignoring Mearls' responsibility for his own game.
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Oct 11, 2018 00:16
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You teleport the sun in front of you, and your death comes mercifully swift for one who has committed such a heinous crime, as everyone on the planet also is nearly instantly dead. Also, the surrounding planets, full of types of life beyond your simple comprehension also die rather quickly due to the sudden gravity shift. Others across the galaxy's deaths would not be so quick, as the subtle shift in gravity had effects beyond prediction of your dull mind, leading to planets thousands of milles away undergoing subtle climate shifts that would lead to long, torturous deaths, not to mention all the asteroids thrown towards places of population throughout the universe. You would be remembered as the plane's biggest monster, however no one knew your name or why you did this, or that you even did it, as not even the gods are exactly sure why the sun suddenly changed positions in the solar system. Roll a new character.
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Oct 11, 2018 00:17
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AlphaDog posted:And yet you spent years claiming that there was nothing wrong with it, and getting worked up when people would criticize it. Kobold Fight Club helped a ton with the confusion aspect. https://kobold.club/fight/#/encounter-builder And I found myself figuring out the system pretty well and it working for me. But I eventually agreed that the average player would have issues figuring it out. As unless you use something like the above encounter builder, it's a pretty long and confusing process to do from the book.
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Oct 11, 2018 00:18
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Bell_ posted:I strongly suspect he means a Knowledge Domain cleric. It rather depends on the level. Wizard provides exceptional campaign utility through Mage Hand, Find Familiar, Detect Magic, Identify, Alarm, and Tiny Hut, which are all rituals and thus leave room for all the other goodies in the list. Still they're not as good at sustained damage dealing as Clerics, and don't get Healing Word or the decent sustain heal that is Prayer of Healing, but at 5 they get the clutch Counterspell, Fireball as a nuke, Hypnotic Pattern as CC, and Haste as a tremendous buff. Then at 9 they get Wall of Force and the game just starts breaking down under the grip of a savvy wizard from then on. Clerics on the other hand pretty much peak at 10.
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Oct 11, 2018 00:19
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MonsterEnvy posted:Which numbers? Encounter levels, I think that is what they are called... the ones at the bottom that seem to go up to 23 at the most.
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Oct 11, 2018 00:22
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Arivia posted:Look, he's swallowed the party line so far it comes out the other end! Are you incapable of making a post without sounding like an overly aggressive rear end?
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Oct 11, 2018 00:24
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