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infernal machines posted:It's in Peel, more than half the students are part of visible minority groups. Those numbers are from the TDSB study, but your second point still stands in relation to the schools that had the SROs.
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Oct 11, 2018 01:55
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Arivia posted:Statistics don't work like that dude. You can't just ignore the third to a half of students responding not sure to these questions. That's bad arguing from improper data. A majority felt safer because of the program is fine, but not a 5:1 ratio. Nowhere near that. Of students 47% wanted it to continue. 7% wanted it to end. But lets say the students are idiots and don't know whats good for them. How about a study about SROs in peel instead? Wonder what its findings were https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/2018/01/18/carlton-study-proves-tdsb-was-wrong-to-remove-cops-from-schools.html Herewith some of the key put-to-shame findings from the 258-page analysis: “All students . . . indicated that they felt significantly safer at school and less stressed and anxious” with an SRO in their midst. Those who had been victims of bullying and/or violence (16 per cent of students surveyed) reported feeling significantly safer after experiencing the SRO program for five months, both at school and in their commute to school, with fewer students skipping classes because they’d been bullied or feared they would be bullied. Both students and staff expressed feeling safer because the SROs could defuse problematic situations or stop them before they escalated. Staff benefited from police support because they spent less time on disciplinary matters and property damage. Because SROs are more likely to recommend diversion when appropriate, students were more likely to avoid criminal charges. I know it seems like a non-progressive policy to have cops in schools. But it helps these ones.
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Oct 11, 2018 01:58
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MagicCube posted:Those numbers are from the TDSB study, but your second point still stands in relation to the schools that had the SROs. The study referenced in both The Star and Natpo was of PDSB students
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Oct 11, 2018 02:00
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infernal machines posted:The study referenced in both The Star and Natpo was of PDSB students zapplez posted:edit : heres the survey. Right, but the stats we're talking about came from the TDSB survey that zapplez posted, not the PDSB study. Regardless, the situation in Peel can't be compared to Toronto. There are so many different factors at play between the SRO programs themselves, the reasons they were created, etc. for the PDSB SRO program to not meaningfully compare to the TDSB program. Here's one of the results to a question in the Peel survey:   Also: Students approving of the program is at: 53% (1st time) and 60% (2nd time) Students answer to the question if they are feeling safer due to the SRO is "half the time or more" is at: 74% (1st time) and 70% (2nd time) Students who agreed that the program is making them feeling safer: 46% (1st time) and 45% (2nd time) MagicCube fucked around with this message at 02:22 on Oct 11, 2018 |
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Oct 11, 2018 02:13
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Thanks, I missed that.
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Oct 11, 2018 02:35
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zapplez posted:I know it seems like a non-progressive policy to have cops in schools. But it helps these ones. Cops closely intertwined in the communities they serve is progressive as hell. A cop-free society just isn't practical at high population levels. If you have to have cops you want to have as many of them be good cops as possible. A fearful us-against-them culture that pits the police against the population (or a portion of the population) makes more cops into bad cops. A fearful cop is a dangerous cop. Get the cops out of their cars an into the community talking with normal people every day to remind everyone that we're all people together. Obviously you shouldn't tell Officer Friendly about all the crimes you and your friends are committing though.
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Oct 11, 2018 02:37
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Yeeeeeah...good luck with the Constitutional argument against a private corporation, genius.
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Oct 11, 2018 03:04
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Agreed, what seems to matter is the people they assign and the goals of the school resource officers. Poorly structured goals or bad cops assigned to schools does more harm then good and if the takeaway of the Toronto school resource officer program made more people distrustful and antagonistic towards police it needed to be shut down, reevaluated and made better. Peel's program from MagicCube's post seems to be having a positive impact.
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Oct 11, 2018 03:07
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Chillyrabbit posted:Agreed, what seems to matter is the people they assign and the goals of the school resource officers. "School resource officer" is 1984-level doublethink, if you're going to say such dumb things you can at least use real words
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Oct 11, 2018 03:10
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What's in a name? That which we call a cop By any other word would be a bastard
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Oct 11, 2018 03:13
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You people are loving delusional if you think the Canadian police have the best interests of the kids at these schools in mind or that they're going to be a legitimate part of the community and use their authority to genuinely help the people they pretend they're here to protect. Rich white people are the worst.
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Oct 11, 2018 03:14
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ChairMaster posted:You people are loving delusional if you think the Canadian police have the best interests of the kids at these schools in mind or that they're going to be a legitimate part of the community and use their authority to genuinely help the people they pretend they're here to protect. Chill out, Canada's school systems have always done well for the marginalized. You could practically reside in them!
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Oct 11, 2018 03:20
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The Butcher posted:That's fuckin' crazy. I worked at Staples like 10 years ago and all the managers were paid ok. Nothing luxurious but enough to live off with a normal quality of life. Yea these days companies primary way to increase revenue is to have as few employees as possible and pay them as little as possible. And people with no "real skills" (because no one considered being able to deal with customers as a real skill) are desperate for jobs, they can get away with paying people peanuts. See i know how to use a computer, but I have zero programming or coding skills. I don't know how old a lot of you are, but when I was in school they seperated kids once they got to Jr High into the Good at Math class and the bad at math class. If you were in the good at math class, you were seen as having a real future, because being good at math is more important than anything. If you were in the bad at math class, welp, i guess you can become a bricklayer or pipefitter if you're lucky. Thing is, if you got stuck in the Bad At Math class, you instantly were closed off to anything other than arts stuff in University. You could do history or English, philosophy or fine arts if you had talents that way, but even if you wanted to go to another level of eduction like law school or whatever, you were hosed. Thing is, they didn't care why you were bad at math. Lazy or kids who didn't give a poo poo were in the same class as people with legitimate problems. I was diagnosted early with Dyscalcula along with Dyslexia, but lol it wasn't because I had trouble properly writing or remember numbers, it was because I wasn't trying. Have every math teacher yell at you for getting 0 on tests constantly because you transpose a 1 and a 4 constantly is really great. To expand on my Cop Band comment, we were shuttled twice in jr high to see Blue Thunder, which was about as lame as you can imagine. A bunch of middle aged cops playing Electric Slide in a gym with messages about don't do drugs and drinking age is 19! This is actually way cooler than they were https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIoMuoD-OsY
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Oct 11, 2018 03:20
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ChairMaster posted:You people are loving delusional if you think the Canadian police have the best interests of the kids at these schools in mind or that they're going to be a legitimate part of the community and use their authority to genuinely help the people they pretend they're here to protect. Thread: discusses whether having cops present in inner city schools is helpful or not to curb kids joining up with their older sibling's gangs, and also reducing violence in the schools. ChairMaster: That post above. 
The Butcher fucked around with this message at 03:26 on Oct 11, 2018 |
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Oct 11, 2018 03:22
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Hahaha yea I'm sure having cops around to harass and intimidate and actively try to ruin the lives of any kids who might have smoked weed before is definitely gonna help keep them out of trouble and not foster resentment and hostility towards the entire legal system of authority. That makes perfect sense. Rich white people are the worst.
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Oct 11, 2018 03:25
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The Butcher posted:Thread: discusses whether having cops present in inner city schools is helpful or not to curb kids joining up with their older sibling's gangs, and also reducing violence in the schools. I don't want to hear "Thread"'s take on TAVIS lmao
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Oct 11, 2018 03:28
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I guess you could ignore the posters here who went to schools with SROs, because whatever. I didn't like them then and I don't like them now, police integration with the community is critical, but I don't think uniformed armed officers in schools is the best way to do it.
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Oct 11, 2018 03:35
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xtal posted:I don't want to hear "Thread"'s take on TAVIS lmao For clarity, I'm talking about inner city schools in Surrey, BC, so we all might be talking past each other here East-West wise, is likely a different kettle of fish.
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Oct 11, 2018 03:36
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bad joke
xtal fucked around with this message at 03:44 on Oct 11, 2018 |
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Oct 11, 2018 03:40
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twistedmentat posted:Yea these days companies primary way to increase revenue is to have as few employees as possible and pay them as little as possible. And people with no "real skills" (because no one considered being able to deal with customers as a real skill) are desperate for jobs, they can get away with paying people peanuts. You could stay after school, in during recesses and lunch hours for months at a time, your working class parents could -somehow- pay for a private math tutor and after all the struggling and the effort and the raw stress they heaped upon you, the report card would come back the same: "_____ isn't applying themselves." And of course, the responsibility for all that would be placed entirely on your already overburdened little shoulders. Believe me, our experience is widely shared. It occurs to me if those fuckers could actually teach useful math in a way most people could learn, the population would be better positioned to see through the lies of repeated liberal and conservative governments.
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Oct 11, 2018 04:12
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Tighclops posted:You could stay after school, in during recesses and lunch hours for months at a time, your working class parents could -somehow- pay for a private math tutor and after all the struggling and the effort and the raw stress they heaped upon you, the report card would come back the same: "_____ isn't applying themselves." And of course, the responsibility for all that would be placed entirely on your already overburdened little shoulders. Believe me, our experience is widely shared. It occurs to me if those fuckers could actually teach useful math in a way most people could learn, the population would be better positioned to see through the lies of repeated liberal and conservative governments. Exactly. I worked my rear end off trying to pass grade 11 math, and got a 49.5%. Had to repeat it, with the same teacher and got the same mark. And yea, teaching math by making you memorize rather than applying is a terrible way to go for a lot of people, not to mention math is an easy way to gauge someone because its a right or wrong thing.
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Oct 11, 2018 04:26
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twistedmentat posted:Exactly. I worked my rear end off trying to pass grade 11 math, and got a 49.5%. Had to repeat it, with the same teacher and got the same mark. Sounds like you might've dodged a bullet cause the next step is you get to university comp sci / math and get a guy with the thickest chinese or indian accent they could find who doesn't give a poo poo about teaching a class of 500 morons. I love ragging on pre-secondary math teachers but their only saving grace is that they get you a bit ready for having to learn a lot of that on your own.
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Oct 11, 2018 04:42
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Postess with the Mostest posted:Sounds like you might've dodged a bullet cause the next step is you get to university comp sci / math and get a guy with the thickest chinese or indian accent they could find who doesn't give a poo poo about teaching a class of 500 morons. I love ragging on pre-secondary math teachers but their only saving grace is that they get you a bit ready for having to learn a lot of that on your own. If you are lucky you get the grad student who hasn't been crushed yet and it's eager to teach.
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Oct 11, 2018 05:21
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xtal posted:bad joke If it was about Surrey, there's no such thing as "Too Far". Prince George: #3 on my "Places in B.C. That Need To Be Purged With Fire" list. Imagine substituing "dilbit" for "natural gas" in the above article. It wouldn't be inconveniencing 70% of the natural gas consumers in B.C., but the environment would have a few more problems than a giant crater and scorch marks. Cerepol posted:If you are lucky you get the grad student who hasn't been crushed yet and it's eager to teach. Yeah, that's how I finally twigged that calculus is cool and good, after failing with the high-priced staff.
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Oct 11, 2018 05:46
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Hi everyone there's a methodological problem with that Peel study that everyone's talking about and that is that they don't give you the data on what minorities think about the school cops. When they talk about demographics, they say slightly over 1 in 4 students self-identified as a minority. But when they do their crosstabs breakdown, they don't bother to tell us if those students' views differ from the majority. They give us four breakdowns of smaller groups:
So we get a little hint that minorities who have had interactions with the police are not pleased about having one in their school, but they don't give us the full data. It's also telling that one of the negative adjectives they say was associated with the police by those who answered with negative feelings about the police was "racist". We also get a hint that people who don't fit into the gender binary are less comfortable having police around, which is also unsurprising but unexamined. To be frank, this is a huge methodological flaw and if I were peer-reviewing this paper I would tell them it was not publishable without including that data. Police have a long history of oppressing minorities in our society and it's not good enough to say "a majority of people like having police in schools" when a majority of people are white. No poo poo white people love having police around, the police's role in our society is often to violently maintain white supremacy. Without knowing what proportion of the people who felt uncomfortable having police in their schools were minorities, we absolutely cannot accurately assess the outcome of this program. By not including that particular crosstab, they've delegitimized a lot of the positive things they say because we can't say who is benefiting from those positive outcomes. It's possible that the positives and negatives are evenly spread across the school's racial makeup and the project is in fact having more of a positive than a negative impact, but it's also possible that the school cop was making minorities feel uncomfortable and less welcome in what's supposed to be a safe place of learning and development. We just don't know because they didn't tell us. And there's no way in hell I'm reading a Christie Blatchford article on the subject, but I'm betting she didn't raise this as an issue because as long as the white people are doing better that's fine with her.
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Oct 11, 2018 05:56
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A good post. This is one of those cases where if a particular minority has serious problems with a policy, you should make drat sure you know why that is, rather than just 'the majority likes it, it's fine.' Let alone the simplest indicator: if you're on the same side as a Christie Blatchford or Margaret Wente column, you're probably on the wrong side.
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Oct 11, 2018 06:11
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Postess with the Mostest posted:Sounds like you might've dodged a bullet cause the next step is you get to university comp sci / math and get a guy with the thickest chinese or indian accent they could find who doesn't give a poo poo about teaching a class of 500 morons. I love ragging on pre-secondary math teachers but their only saving grace is that they get you a bit ready for having to learn a lot of that on your own. That’s some real world experience lesson being taught right there, if you make it out of the class successfully you can thrive in the workplace with individuals from Asia, SE-Asia, Russia, post-Soviet countries, and sometimes Israelis. Unless you’re at a startup in which case this doesn’t apply. They really did segregate good and math and bad at math people in HS.
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Oct 11, 2018 09:59
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vyelkin posted:Police have a long history of oppressing minorities in our society and it's not good enough to say "a majority of people like having police in schools" when a majority of people are white. infernal machines posted:It's in Peel, more than half the students are part of visible minority groups. vyelkin posted:Without knowing what proportion of the people who felt uncomfortable having police in their schools were minorities, we absolutely cannot accurately assess the outcome of this program. By not including that particular crosstab, they've delegitimized a lot of the positive things they say because we can't say who is benefiting from those positive outcomes. It's possible that the positives and negatives are evenly spread across the school's racial makeup and the project is in fact having more of a positive than a negative impact, but it's also possible that the school cop was making minorities feel uncomfortable and less welcome in what's supposed to be a safe place of learning and development. We just don't know because they didn't tell us. I'd be especially suspicious of information gathered from first-generation immigrants because of how they'd become accustomed to dealing with authority before coming here. (Also that reminded me of a recent immigrant YP I diverted, and if his social media's to be believed it seems like he's doing pretty all right now  )Another problem I have with the survey is that it's only gathering info from one side. How do the cops getting rotated through those positions feel about their community before and after? Are they more engaged? Trustworthy? Are they more likely to want to engage people to find solutions that don't involve charges? Are they less likely to be accused of misconduct? When in Peel, why not bring back Peelism? Why was the program really instituted in the first place? To make students feel more comfortable seeing Officer Friendly around, priming them for disappointment and a lifetime of ignored NDP votes when they hit the real world and run into the sort of weaponized assholery that the whole system seems set up to encourage? flakeloaf fucked around with this message at 14:03 on Oct 11, 2018 |
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Oct 11, 2018 13:50
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littleorv posted:I’m probably going to live in Manitoba until the day I die. Same but Alberta. I’d say we both lose, friendo. :[
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Oct 11, 2018 14:01
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Vintersorg posted:Oh no, you get to live a somewhat affordable life. Whatever will you do. Yeah I feel a lot different about my post today. Sorry for throwing that lovely attitude in your faces.
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Oct 11, 2018 14:03
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flakeloaf posted:I'd be especially suspicious of information gathered from first-generation immigrants because of how they'd become accustomed to dealing with authority before coming here. In the survey only a quarter of kids identified as a minority, well below "more than half".
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Oct 11, 2018 14:14
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madmatt112 posted:Yeah I feel a lot different about my post today. Sorry for throwing that lovely attitude in your faces. I don't think you said anything. It was aimed at the sad sack lamenting living in Winnipeg/Manitoba their entire life.
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Oct 11, 2018 14:26
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And of course the responses weren't broken down by ethnicity so we can only make (fairly educated) guesses about the makeup of the students and how they reacted to a cop in the school, whose race also isn't important for some reason. Seems to me like an easier way to put minority students at ease with cops is to get cops to not show up in the news as often for being rabid assholes to members of minority groups, but that's just my mooneyed idealism talking.
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Oct 11, 2018 14:27
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Hey finally there's a poll about Vancouver council candidate slates! https://twitter.com/mario_canseco/status/1050402328841457664 quote:Vancouver, BC [October 11, 2018] – Voters in Vancouver continue to take a serious look at candidates from the Green Party and Independents as they contemplate their options in the election to City Council, a new Research Co. poll has found. Looks like a GREEN/COPE/NPA council is possible. Welp sorry YIMBYs 
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Oct 11, 2018 16:21
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Femtosecond posted:Hey finally there's a poll about Vancouver council candidate slates! At least loving Wai Young doesn't have a chance
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Oct 11, 2018 16:22
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odiv posted:We had a wildlife officer come in to talk about bears and other animals a few times. Then one day he came in to talk about gun safety and handed around a shotgun for us pass around. The plan was that after we had all handled it he would unload it in front of the class to show it was actually loaded (*gasp!*) and that you should always treat a gun as loaded!!! (I guess it had no firing pins or something). This fell apart when a kid unloaded it instead and the shells fell on the floor. "Always treat it like it's loaded" is an iron-clad rule, but the way to demonstrate that rule is not (in my opinion) to hand around a disabled, loaded firearm to a room full of teenagers. As you saw, any semi-competent individual there (e.g. a student who had taken the PAL-for-minors course, or who just had good habits imparted to them by relatives) would rapidly expose the officer's "clever" plan by dumping the mag from the shotgun. The standard practice at the Churchill Northern Studies Centre when returning a predator-deterent (12-ga pump-action shotgun if you had a PAL, starter pistol if you didn't) was to pump it half-a-dozen times before and after handing it to another person. If any cartridges fell out, you weren't allowed to sign out any guns for a period of time. Cerepol posted:If you are lucky you get the grad student who hasn't been crushed yet and it's eager to teach.
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Oct 11, 2018 16:45
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madmatt112 posted:Yeah I feel a lot different about my post today. Sorry for throwing that lovely attitude in your faces. Having lived in both places Winnipeg and Edmonton are essentially the exact same city. The only differences are Edmonton has a bigger mall, more pickup trucks and more assholes (albertans)
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Oct 11, 2018 16:47
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Vintersorg posted:I don't think you said anything. It was aimed at the sad sack lamenting living in Winnipeg/Manitoba their entire life. Yeah, the way I see it is that I can actually afford to do or have nice things and maybe even save for retirement on a mid-five-figure salary while still having comfortable living arrangements. I had some friends visit from Vancouver and they couldn't believe what I'm paying for my place, and that I can live there without needing roommates.
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Oct 11, 2018 17:29
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Winnipeg is pretty great. I mean I wish it weren't flat as a board and full of meth fueled bike thieves and homicidal drivers now that I make a living selling bikes and compete in the local racing scene but other than that it's pretty great. Better than being broke despite making more than the median income and not doing anything due to crowds and commute duration.
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Oct 11, 2018 17:32
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I've lived in Calgary, Victoria, Vancouver, Guelph, Saskatoon, Waterloo, Quebec, and now Sudbury. There are things I've liked about all of the places, and things I didn't like. Some of those things are due to the province (e.g. Quebec and Ontario have quite different approaches to owning and driving a car, especially one brought in from another province), most are due to the municipality (Quebec and Vancouver have public-transit systems that are head-and-shoulders above anywhere else I've lived). There are assholes everywhere, in great abundance and the tiny differences in proportions and assholes-specifically-about-specific-issues are meaningless; do you really care if it's actually 74% instead of 76% of the people you talk to on any given day that are total shitheads about funding for public services? There are climate-trashing numbers of climate-trashing full-size and lifted/oversize pickups everywhere. I had thought that was an Alberta thing or a prairie thing but southern Ontario and Quebec are nearly as in love with big, black, loud brodozers as everywhere else. And there are (thankfully not many) right-wing shitheads who will loudly proclaim their love for Trump and fervent desire for His Exhaulted Cheeto to annex Canada everywhere. Cost of living is the only thing that seems to vary in a systematic way among the cities I've lived in. Rent has been pretty stable for me from Saskatoon to Sudbury, and the cost of food hasn't changed much. Quebec has cheaper and more easily-obtained beer, which is great, but otherwise I don't see a whole lot of differences beyond the obviously-higher rents in Vancouver and the joys of having one's nearest airport be a commuter-feeder that only flies to the three nearest big cities.
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Oct 11, 2018 18:05
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