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cheetah7071 posted:I'm sympathetic to and fundamentally agree with "democrats don't go far enough" but if you still think democrats and republicans are the same, in 2018, you're probably just a moron
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Oct 12, 2018 21:54
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cheetah7071 posted:I'm sympathetic to and fundamentally agree with "democrats don't go far enough" but if you still think democrats and republicans are the same, in 2018, you're probably just a moron
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Oct 12, 2018 22:01
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its clearly the thousands upon thousands of people that vote every years fault for not falling into line instead of the few hundred candidates being incapable of not being lovely. did u hold their feet to the fire? well, what do u expect dummies
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Oct 12, 2018 22:13
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Oh good, it's the 2016 election. Again.
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Oct 12, 2018 22:29
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ElCondemn posted:When I first started caring about politics I started looking at voting records of the people in office, at all levels, and it was immediately clear to me that there's no such thing as a "left wing". Republican and Democrat are basically the same. On a good day a handful of Democrats sometimes vote progressive/liberal, but only sometimes, mostly they're just voting in line with Republicans. Independents are just Republicans who are ashamed to call themselves that. I used to think this, but at some point I started to realize it's not the politicians, it's the people who elect the politicians, and I don't mean the 'hold your nose voters' or the 'third party voters,' I mean that great giant mass of American suburban monoculture. The people who will mostly just tell you they don't follow politics or don't care, but if you corner them have a mish-mash of beliefs that seem to line up really well with the democratic party. They don't like overt racism but they're fine with not noticing it. They don't like overt cruelty (border separation/physical violence) but they don't mind systemic cruelty that they can ignore. I could go on. It's this weird political framework where they vaguely want things to be better but they don't want to be the slightest inconvenienced by making it better. You aren't changing the democratic party from the left until you figure out how to reach those people. The problem is, they are really loving hard to reach, they plead ignorance, don't even know the name of their senators despite being able to run off names of the entire coaching staff of the loving Ducks. HashtagGirlboss fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Oct 12, 2018 |
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Oct 12, 2018 22:40
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xrunner posted:I used to think this, but at some point I started to realize it's not the politicians, it's the people who elect the politicians, and I don't mean the 'hold your nose voters' or the 'third party voters,' I mean that great giant mass of American suburban monoculture. The people who will mostly just tell you they don't follow politics or don't care, but if you corner them have a mish-mash of beliefs that seem to line up really well with the democratic party. They don't like overt racism but they're fine with not noticing it. They don't like overt cruelty (border separation/physical violence) but they don't mind systemic cruelty that they can ignore. I could go on. Sure, I would agree that what's going on in this country is representative of what the average person wants. I'm just saying there's no "left party", there is no party that aligns with what I want. Even the furthest "left" parties that exist in this country aren't pushing big ideas like basic income or public housing solutions.
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Oct 12, 2018 22:45
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the republicans and democrats only differ in tactics not in goals so gently caress them both. democrats gently caress you from behind and take credit for any of the tiny amount of good you can accomplish while republicans gently caress you from the front.
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Oct 12, 2018 22:55
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ElCondemn posted:Sure, I would agree that what's going on in this country is representative of what the average person wants. I'm just saying there's no "left party", there is no party that aligns with what I want. Even the furthest "left" parties that exist in this country aren't pushing big ideas like basic income or public housing solutions. Right. There isn't anything close to that party. But that's also because those ideas have no traction with the electorate. You can push and advocate stuff all you want but if people aren't listening and are actively conditioned to ignore your advocacy what do you expect to happen? Public housing is a great example. For better or worse public housing as done in the United States mid-twentieth century was a loving disaster. It's entered the popular mindset that it was a disaster. You can't get through to these people because they're locked down on it was a disaster and no amount of talking, evidence, passion, or logic is going to sway them. It's nearly impossible to change peoples' minds on this issue. They just shut down and refuse to listen to anything that isn't "public housing projects in Chicago..." I don't know. I'm maybe hopeless. But I've started to think that the reason the democratic party doesn't move to the left is that there just aren't that many leftists. There's not a leftest version of the silent majority out there waiting for the right party to come along and tap the enthusiasm. If anything, there's a huge mass of silent center rightests ready to pounce and undo your works if you ever start to get traction.
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Oct 12, 2018 22:56
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ElCondemn posted:there is no party that aligns with what I want. i mean i guess thats the 2 party system. does that mean you take your ball and go home or try to push the party that's closer to where you want to be and dig in to make meaningful votes to help push the boulder? Doorknob Slobber posted:the republicans and democrats only differ in tactics not in goals so gently caress them both. democrats gently caress you from behind and take credit for any of the tiny amount of good you can accomplish while republicans gently caress you from the front. show us on the bernie doll where hillary touched you
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Oct 12, 2018 22:57
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Here in the PNW the classic example of democrats being poo poo is the seattle city council not support a $15 minimum wage until socialist activists literally forced them to.Dungeon Ecology posted:show us on the bernie doll where hillary touched you my friend, bernie ran as a democrat
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Oct 12, 2018 22:59
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Doorknob Slobber posted:Here in the PNW the classic example of democrats being poo poo is the seattle city council not support a $15 minimum wage until socialist activists literally forced them to. One weird trick to being politically relevant: voting in sufficient numbers
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Oct 12, 2018 23:01
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:One weird trick to being politically relevant: voting in sufficient numbers except the seattle city council had was all democrats and they still said no until activists got the measure on the ballot and the only reason they decided to go with it was because they were so scared of what their donors would think of a not phased in approach what was the democrat solution again? a five year phase in for $15 and by the time it phased in all the way the cost of living in seattle had risen so much the benefits of $15 an hour were vastly negated
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Oct 12, 2018 23:03
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xrunner posted:I used to think this, but at some point I started to realize it's not the politicians, it's the people who elect the politicians, and I don't mean the 'hold your nose voters' or the 'third party voters,' I mean that great giant mass of American suburban monoculture. The people who will mostly just tell you they don't follow politics or don't care, but if you corner them have a mish-mash of beliefs that seem to line up really well with the democratic party. They don't like overt racism but they're fine with not noticing it. They don't like overt cruelty (border separation/physical violence) but they don't mind systemic cruelty that they can ignore. I could go on. I blame this on the idea that it's "rude to talk about politics". Once you start having conversations, you start changing minds and solidifying better and more consistent beliefs. anthonypants posted:You're correct; a revolution would result in better outcomes than a reformation. You're smarter than this, accelerationism is never the answer. TheDeadlyShoe posted:If you are still posting poo poo like that after two years of trump i dont know what to tell you. Look at all the good poo poo that was passed in the state legislature this year once it flipped. The transparency thing was again really loving lovely but when pressed they changed it immediately. Is there more poo poo to do? Always. Do these representatives need to be kept under pressure? Yes, of course. But holy poo poo will I take the results from the past year over the obstructionism of the recent past.
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Oct 12, 2018 23:04
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Doorknob Slobber posted:except the seattle city council had was all democrats and they still said no until activists got the measure on the ballot and the only reason they decided to go with it was because they were so scared of what their donors would think of a not phased in approach Wasn't it 7 year phase in? You know what else the dems in washington passed? that loving terrible mccleary fix that didn't fix poo poo. but progress I guess! 
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Oct 12, 2018 23:09
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:One weird trick to being politically relevant: voting in sufficient numbers Solkanar512 posted:You're smarter than this, accelerationism is never the answer. Solkanar512 posted:Look at all the good poo poo that was passed in the state legislature this year once it flipped. The transparency thing was again really loving lovely but when pressed they changed it immediately. Is there more poo poo to do? Always. Do these representatives need to be kept under pressure? Yes, of course. But holy poo poo will I take the results from the past year over the obstructionism of the recent past. Teabag Dome Scandal posted:Wasn't it 7 year phase in?
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Oct 12, 2018 23:15
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Teabag Dome Scandal posted:Wasn't it 7 year phase in? Holy poo poo, you found a single piece of legislation that wasn't perfect, you got me! You totally win! Of course, folks like you refuse to look at the body of legislation as a whole, and of course you forget the years of obstruction. My brother, a high school teacher, didn't forget about the years of pay freezes, but you did.
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Oct 12, 2018 23:18
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anthonypants posted:Not only does Washington state already provide the highest minimum wage in the country, which means the leap to $15 is the smallest concession out of any state to make, but within the city of Seattle it was $15 beginning on January 1, 2017. In Oregon, it won't be $15.52 in Portland until 2022. I'm so loving pissed those cowards in DC unlegislated their minimum wage increase. loving Demorats! Solkanar512 posted:Holy poo poo, you found a single piece of legislation that wasn't perfect, you got me! You totally win! lol a single piece of legislation
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Oct 12, 2018 23:21
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Solkanar512 posted:I blame this on the idea that it's "rude to talk about politics". Once you start having conversations, you start changing minds and solidifying better and more consistent beliefs. Do you? I've found mostly resistance, or sometimes placation. A good portion of the time they just listen and smile and nod and agree because they don't want to be rude or to get into a conflict with somebody they like (assuming you're using these tactics on friends/family). Then the next time you see them it's the same old poo poo. I'm not an accelerationist, accelerationism scares me because I'm not confident that the forces of good win out and shape whatever emerges, but I am hopeless. I wish we could figure this poo poo out without a major crisis well beyond 2008, but more and more I think it's pretty much impossible. This country is too rich and comfortable and confident in its worldview.
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Oct 12, 2018 23:22
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xrunner posted:wish we could figure this poo poo out without a major crisis well beyond 2008, but more and more I think it's pretty much impossible. This country is too rich and comfortable and confident in its worldview. yeah this is my belief as well.  
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Oct 12, 2018 23:30
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xrunner posted:Do you? I've found mostly resistance, or sometimes placation. A good portion of the time they just listen and smile and nod and agree because they don't want to be rude or to get into a conflict with somebody they like (assuming you're using these tactics on friends/family). Then the next time you see them it's the same old poo poo. I'm not an accelerationist, accelerationism scares me because I'm not confident that the forces of good win out and shape whatever emerges, but I am hopeless. I wish we could figure this poo poo out without a major crisis well beyond 2008, but more and more I think it's pretty much impossible. This country is too rich and comfortable and confident in its worldview. If you're feeling this hopeless, take a break. Make sure you vote, but take a break. There's no shame in ignoring the news for a bit and doing whatever you do to chill out.
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Oct 12, 2018 23:32
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Solkanar512 posted:
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Oct 12, 2018 23:34
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Solkanar512 posted:Look at all the good poo poo that was passed in the state legislature this year once it flipped. The transparency thing was again really loving lovely but when pressed they changed it immediately. Is there more poo poo to do? Always. Do these representatives need to be kept under pressure? Yes, of course. But holy poo poo will I take the results from the past year over the obstructionism of the recent past. State-level Democrats in Washington are loving garbage. National level Democrats are loving garbage. The leadership hamstrings leftists candidates in primaries whenever possible, and even when the leftists manage to win in spite of every effort made by the national party/DCCC, they pull out all their funding, support, and access, and sometimes even endorse Republicans, and then when they're done ratfucking the candidate, have the audacity to say "oh, look, leftists can't win elections!" loving Joe Crowley kept his name on the ballot, nobody from the leadership went after him for it; the leadership chose Bob Menendez over Lisa McCormick in New Jersey, when the correct choice was literally anyone other than Bob Menendez. Cory loving shitpiece Booker even loving endorsed him. They don't even bother to loving lie about it. Donna Brazile is still in the loving leadership of the party. Voting for leadership-endorsed Democrats is as bad--if not worse--than voting for Republicans; they are more effective at stopping progressive change than Republicans are. Solkanar512 posted:If you're feeling this hopeless, take a break. Make sure you vote, but take a break. There's no shame in ignoring the news for a bit and doing whatever you do to chill out.
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Oct 12, 2018 23:37
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I think the best way to feel like you're accomplishing something right now is organizing outside the system like the various city assemblies are doing. All sorts of cool poo poo is happening that you won't hear about unless you're organizing like them. The dream of building a new society in the dying corpse of the old is happening in a bunch of ways and its the only thing that gives me any hope. Where I live one of the democrats on city council owns with his family a realty company and through that company they hired a private security firm to harass homeless people at night. Democrats are so progressive. Doorknob Slobber fucked around with this message at 23:52 on Oct 12, 2018 |
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Oct 12, 2018 23:45
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anthonypants posted:Would you like to start? You can start by discussing why you disagree with the points in this post: quote:Also as a reminder, just like all those idiots who voted in trump are responsible for all the terrible poo poo he and the rest of his lovely party does, when you vote in democrats you're responsible for deporting more people than any president previously and drone striking american citizens without a trial. every election cycle the left has to deal with the liberal guilt trip of, 'but the other guy is SO bad you will be responsible for all that bad' but they(liberals) never hold themselves meaningfully accountable for voting in their own candidate(s) that are also so bad idk, maybe because it's idiocy? Anyone who's spent 10 seconds googling the deporting thing knows better than that. Not a good start if anyone's trying to have a good faith argument. Politics is a struggle for control between interests and that's not just between the D and R but within the parties at every level. To get literally anywhere you need to make alliances with people you disagree with. To win you will need to make alliances with people you really disagree with. That's what both the Democrats and Republicans are - a bunch of people who disagree with eachother less than the other party - and if you refuse to accept that you arn't beating the system. You're just not in the game. You have to deal with the liberal guilt trip every election cycle because it's fact. If you refuse to join in you are tacitly responsible for the results, and at the very least signaling you're okay with it. And the people most free to be purity ponies are almost without fail people whose lives won't actually be materially impacted by Trumpism or the Republican agenda. Doorknob Slobber posted:I think the best way to feel like you're accomplishing something right now is organizing outside the system like the various city assemblies are doing. All sorts of cool poo poo is happening that you won't hear about unless you're organizing like them. The dream of building a new society in the dying corpse of the old is happening in a bunch of ways and its the only thing that gives me any hope. oh wow huge slam did you know that there are selfish assholes in politics and some of them are democrats? True story. Surely in a leftist society (that someone else will build, I'm too busy) there will be no selfish assholes in politics. TheDeadlyShoe fucked around with this message at 00:44 on Oct 13, 2018 |
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Oct 13, 2018 00:16
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:oh wow huge slam did you know that there are selfish assholes in politics and some of them are democrats? True story. Surely in a leftist society (that someone else will build, I'm too busy) there will be no selfish assholes in politics. the problem is that that kind of hypocrisy is the norm among democrats. Claiming to be progressive mainly to get into a position of power to protect their own interests. I'm just bringing up examples that I specifically know about from first hand experience with in the places I've participated in politics. Letting Trump appoint 15 more lifetimes judges without a fight so that they can instead go home and campaign on an issue they will never be able to win with like gun control is another current good example of how garbage democrats are.
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Oct 13, 2018 00:20
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:idk, maybe because it's idiocy? Anyone who's spent 10 seconds googling the deporting thing knows better than that. Not a good start if anyone's trying to have a good faith argument.
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Oct 13, 2018 00:22
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anthonypants posted:Ten seconds of googling would lead to figuring out that the immigrant child prisons started under Obama's term, and that the Obama administration deported more people than any previous administration up to that point. It would be fair to say that post-9/11, post-GWB, that's just the direction the country was headed in, but that would seem to prove the point that Democrats and Republicans are the same. The sad thing is that the attitude he has concerning democrats is exactly the same attitude republicans have with trump and its exactly what I meant when I said that liberals refuse to take any meaningful responsibility for how lovely their candidates are. Republicans have straight up proven that no you do not need to work with the other side to get poo poo done and in fact being an unrepentant rear end in a top hat with strong convictions is probably the best way to win elections.
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Oct 13, 2018 00:34
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Doorknob Slobber posted:The sad thing is that the attitude he has concerning democrats is exactly the same attitude republicans have with trump and its exactly what I meant when I said that liberals refuse to take any meaningful responsibility for how lovely their candidates are. Republicans have straight up proven that no you do not need to work with the other side to get poo poo done and in fact being an unrepentant rear end in a top hat with strong convictions is probably the best way to win elections.
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Oct 13, 2018 00:50
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Thanatosian posted:Can you list some things? Because other than the McCleary fix... I got nothin'. In fact, the first thing they tried to do (and very nearly succeeded at) was gutting ST3, either forcing it to take its funding from much more regressive sources than car tab fees, or just flat cutting its funding. They just barely failed. I'm not going to defend the DCCC and related orgs because they're poo poo, this is the PNW thread so I figured we're talking about fairly local stuff when I made my other posts. As far as this year, there was net neutrality, bump stock ban (yeah, I know it's useless), gender pay equity, voting rights act (allows 16 and 17 yr olds to register to vote), three different bills making it easier for employees to be protected against harassment on the job (one prevents employees from being blocked from publicly speaking about what happened, another secured the right to file claims while the third developed model practices to prevent sexual harassment in the first place) and outlawed housing bias from landlords based on source of income. Not to mention that we have a fairly consumer protecting AG that also sue the Trump administration for pretty much every loving thing they can. And as I said before, you don't stop pushing, and you don't stop primarying. But if you think a deadlocked or Republican legislature would be doing this, you're sadly mistaken.
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Oct 13, 2018 01:36
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I got the Voters' Pamphlet for Washington in the mail today. The initiative on taxing pollution seems good. Initiative 1634, which bans new local taxes on food seems to be a bald-faced attempt to disallow local taxation on soda... 1639 is a gun control one that I'm categorically against, but I bet most in the thread would be keen on. 940 is to make cops learn deescalation, good. Anyone else get theirs yet/know which way they're going to vote?
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Oct 13, 2018 04:28
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Solkanar512 posted:If you're feeling this hopeless, take a break. Make sure you vote, but take a break. There's no shame in ignoring the news for a bit and doing whatever you do to chill out. You understand that the causes people are talking about aren’t something you can “take a break from”, right? People can’t take a break from making too little per hour to cover their ever increasing cost of living, or from their uncovered medical expenses sending them further into crippling debt? Housing, wages, and healthcare aren’t some poo poo leftists just care about on principle, for too many people it’s literally all they can see. Maybe you’re privileged enough to just shut that out, but for plenty it’s what they have to face whether they want to or not.
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Oct 13, 2018 04:51
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can we at least agree that anyone that voted green party/jill stein or god forbid libertarian is a god drat idiot regardless of anything about splitting the vote
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Oct 13, 2018 04:57
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Solkanar512 posted:If you're feeling this hopeless, take a break. Make sure you vote, but take a break. There's no shame in ignoring the news for a bit and doing whatever you do to chill out. just take a break from all the bills you gotta pay that works right poo poo now im homeless
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Oct 13, 2018 06:17
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Reene posted:can we at least agree that anyone that voted green party/jill stein or god forbid libertarian is a god drat idiot regardless of anything about splitting the vote Jill was literally the least bad candidate
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Oct 13, 2018 06:18
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im on the net me boys posted:Jill was literally the least bad candidate lol
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Oct 13, 2018 06:37
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im on the net me boys posted:Jill was literally the least bad candidate Yowza that's a spicy one.
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Oct 13, 2018 06:49
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Question: so I'm in Oregon and I'm on the home confinement leg of a federal prison sentence. Technically, I am still in federal custody (I switch to normal probation in December). Can I vote?
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Oct 13, 2018 06:53
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im on the net me boys posted:Jill was literally the least bad candidate 
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Oct 13, 2018 07:17
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im on the net me boys posted:Jill was literally the least bad candidate 
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Oct 13, 2018 07:22
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Didn't expect this reaction but I respect it
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Oct 13, 2018 07:57
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