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Because dude going in to get paperwork done for a marriage, instead getting murdered and then cut up and the body smuggled out of the country, all in an embassy is some disgusting medieval GoT House of Bolton poo poo that everyone is quite rightly flipping out over.
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Oct 16, 2018 14:22
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surf rock posted:I guess what's weird about this to me is: didn't China straight-up kidnap the head of Interpol like a week ago? What happened to that story? Is he dead? How is that not a bigger story? That seems like it ought to be EVERYWHERE.
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Oct 16, 2018 14:22
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surf rock posted:I don't mean to be callous, but why exactly is Khashoggi's death serving as such a catalyst for international backlash? I kinda thought that most countries were doing this poo poo regularly, especially a non-democracy like Saudi Arabia that already has a bad human rights record. Am I wrong and this is like the first time that a journalist has been killed outside of warzone in decades, and journalists like writing about journalists? Or has everyone been looking for a solid excuse to hold their feet to the fire? Two things. First, is that this Saudi citizen had become part of the DC in crowd. He wrote for the Washington Post. He (I assume) would have been moving around political circles there, meeting with powerful people of various sorts. When something happens to one of their own, politicians and journalists take close notice. Secondly is the fiance. If he just disappeared this probably would have been a non-story, something that shows up on page 3. But Khashoggi was aware of the danger and told his fiance to go to the authorities if he didn't come out, and she went and did just that. That meant that people started to pay attention while the affair was ongoing-- KSA was caught in the act. The Saudi's ridiculous response, and Turkey's investigation/bugging has kept it in the news.
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Oct 16, 2018 14:29
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To boot, KSA has been in the news a lot, in general, for not so positive reasons. When Senators and media are already taking note of Yemen, such a high profile event as this killing add fuel to the fire.
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Oct 16, 2018 14:35
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Another factor is that Turkey has clearly taken affront at an extra judicial killing taking place in Turkey committed by a foreign power so has been unusually open and forthcoming about what they believe took place. If Khashoggi had been silently disappeared in Saudi Arabia it wouldn't be a story that gained any traction, not least because his death wouldn't have been immediately announced and instead he would just be missing.
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Oct 16, 2018 14:46
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surf rock posted:I don't mean to be callous, but why exactly is Khashoggi's death serving as such a catalyst for international backlash? I kinda thought that most countries were doing this poo poo regularly, especially a non-democracy like Saudi Arabia that already has a bad human rights record. Am I wrong and this is like the first time that a journalist has been killed outside of warzone in decades, and journalists like writing about journalists? Or has everyone been looking for a solid excuse to hold their feet to the fire? Ambushing and murdering people in embassies or consulates is qualitatively different from bombing another country. The way countries deal with each other follow certain rules, and these rules do accommodate for war but they don't accommodate for what the Saudi did. It's stupid but it's like that. It'd have been fine if they had hired some hitmen to murder Kashoggi in his home or at a café or whatever, like the Russians do. But diplomatic real estate is supposed to be some kinda holy ground where you don't commit violent crimes so that the extraterritoriality privileges they are granted don't need to be revoked. They broke an important rule of the game, and no one wants this kind of behavior where this becomes accepted as the new standard because it'd basically be the end of embassies. Cat Mattress fucked around with this message at 14:53 on Oct 16, 2018 |
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Oct 16, 2018 14:51
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OK, thank you all for those details about the story. I can see why it would stick in the news now. Somehow, I didn't realize it had happened in Turkey and not Saudi Arabia.
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Oct 16, 2018 14:56
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Count Roland posted:Two things. Yeah the fiance is definitely something KSA didn't take into account when they decided this was a good idea.
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Oct 16, 2018 15:06
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Spacewolf posted:Do we mean survive politically, or...survive survive? https://twitter.com/iyad_elbaghdadi/status/1052200980417323008 Sooo... both, maybe. If MbS didn't manage to kill all the threats to his power in his torture hotel, then some of them might be seeing the current situation as an opportunity to oust him.
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Oct 16, 2018 15:48
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FourLeaf posted:https://twitter.com/iyad_elbaghdadi/status/1052200980417323008 Even if he did get rid of all of them, new threats to power have a way of popping up over time, especially with such a large royal family to supply them. Ruling with some level of consensus kept dynastic struggles to a minimum until recently, but MBS cutting in line and purging his opponents made it a lot more likely that future ambitious men will also contemplate taking a more ruthless path.
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Oct 16, 2018 16:27
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I think that the main thing is that this happened in the goddamned embassy. Most journalist murders are plausibly deniable, but you can't get any more state-sanctioned than that without a video of MBS personally executing the dude.
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Oct 16, 2018 16:37
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Hmmmm, the likely thing is that this is the opposition to MBS creating an elaborate way to frame that impulsive moron, rather than the impulsive moron ordering it. The way it’s been handled shows that they were spinning for time as much as possible. If it was rogue elements, the team who was sent was already identified, they and their orderer would have been trotted out already.
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Oct 16, 2018 16:40
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Coldwar timewarp posted:Hmmmm, the likely thing is that this is the opposition to MBS creating an elaborate way to frame that impulsive moron, rather than the impulsive moron ordering it. Nobody here was suggesting otherwise, just that his very stupid action may present his opposition with an opportunity to act against him if the heat doesn't die down soon.
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Oct 16, 2018 17:53
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Sinteres posted:Nobody here was suggesting otherwise, just that his very stupid action may present his opposition with an opportunity to act against him if the heat doesn't die down soon. I was referencing that elbaghdadi fellow from twitter. Guess I didn’t get the jist of what he was saying. Didn’t quite line up with other things he said either, if interpreted incorrectly.
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Oct 16, 2018 19:34
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surf rock posted:I don't mean to be callous, but why exactly is Khashoggi's death serving as such a catalyst for international backlash? I kinda thought that most countries were doing this poo poo regularly, especially a non-democracy like Saudi Arabia that already has a bad human rights record. Am I wrong and this is like the first time that a journalist has been killed outside of warzone in decades, and journalists like writing about journalists? Or has everyone been looking for a solid excuse to hold their feet to the fire? All those dead-eyed ghouls that have been writing favorable puff pieces for Muhammed Bin Salman were 100% willing to write off any faceless yemenis, saudis, or any other poor arabs they would never in their lives meet as 'broken eggs' needed to make MBS' wonderful reform omlette. Naturally being every bit as cowardly as they are ghoulish, this calculus changed when someone in their own professional and social circle was targetted. For the first time in their lives, editorialists for the washington post and wallstreet journal and other awful soulless rags felt a pang of empathy for one of MBS' many many many victims, and were able to see themselves in Khashoggi's shoes. This is why we see so much press coverage of this. 420 Gank Mid fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Oct 16, 2018 |
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Oct 16, 2018 20:59
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FWIW it's mostly not that cheerleaders suddenly turned around and decided they hated MBS, but more that people who were always skeptical got to point to this incident as validating their opinion and giving them a chance to share it (and forcing some of the cheerleaders to back away from their support for him). The war in Yemen has been supported by presidents from both parties, and while criticism of that war did force a tougher than usual vote on blocking arms sales to the Saudis, it's still a war the US actively assists them with, so it's a tricky issue for journalists to wade in on, particularly with the public too obsessed with the Trump show these days for most other things to break through. It's the shocking nature of this incident that helped it break through as much as the 'he was a journalist' angle. In any case, it seems like some focus on the monstrous nature of the Saudi government is better than none, so even if it's not for the reason you think it should be, just be glad it's happening at all. Dr Kool-AIDS fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Oct 16, 2018 |
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Oct 16, 2018 21:13
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Sinteres posted:FWIW it's mostly not that cheerleaders suddenly turned around and decided they hated MBS, but more that people who were always skeptical got to point to this incident as validating their opinion and giving them a chance to share it (and forcing some of the cheerleaders to back away from their support for him). I would be curious to know who exactly these people who "Were always skeptical" are because I dont think anyone in the mainstream american media fits that criteria
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Oct 16, 2018 21:24
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420 Gank Mid posted:I would be curious to know who exactly these people who "Were always skeptical" are because I dont think anyone in the mainstream american media fits that criteria I'm not going to write up an extensive list of media opinions for you, but you're wrong, and the idea that everyone in the media agrees about pretty much anything is pretty dumb. One example I thought of off the top of my head was Dan Drezner calling him the Kim Jong Un of the Persian Gulf in the Washington Post last year: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2017/11/06/meet-the-kim-jong-un-of-the-persian-gulf Drezner's not exactly a screaming radical, and Friedman was mocked by all kinds of people after his puff piece on MBS.
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Oct 16, 2018 22:12
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They make the GRU look like the Mission: Impossible Team https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1052281333806977024
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Oct 16, 2018 22:28
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420 Gank Mid posted:I would be curious to know who exactly these people who "Were always skeptical" are because I dont think anyone in the mainstream american media fits that criteria remember when Jake Tapper decided "hey, I've never bought the MBS fluff" after actively promoting that Friedman piece
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Oct 16, 2018 22:31
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:remember when Jake Tapper decided "hey, I've never bought the MBS fluff" after actively promoting that Friedman piece Yeah everyone who fell hook line and sinker for MBS is working overtime now to scrub their record but there was fairly unanimous support for him until this particular incident. It's hard to imagine how you could ignore it.
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Oct 16, 2018 22:38
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https://twitter.com/AP/status/1052318734185099269 Our Brain Genious President
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Oct 16, 2018 23:17
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This thread is crazy https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1052263447335972864 https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1052299898748588038
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Oct 16, 2018 23:25
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Brown Moses posted:This thread is crazy Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
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Oct 16, 2018 23:39
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I find myself hoping all of the worst claims are true, and that it all comes out, so as to better tarnish the reputation of MBS and KSA. Except for being dismembered while alive. I hope that isn't true.
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Oct 16, 2018 23:43
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Jesus loving Christ....
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Oct 16, 2018 23:56
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Remind me why we are friends with SA and enemies with Iran again...? I believe it starts with "the Iranians are cruel and undemocratic".
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Oct 17, 2018 00:05
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The Iranian government have spent the last few decades bending over backwards to be America's friend and get in their good books at every turn, but are coldly rebuffed every time 
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Oct 17, 2018 00:23
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Radio Prune posted:The Iranian government have spent the last few decades bending over backwards to be America's friend and get in their good books at every turn, but are coldly rebuffed every time I thought this was a serious post until I saw the username. This thread has really gone downhill.
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Oct 17, 2018 00:35
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So uh... WHY did they do this again? Just because he was a critical journalist? This seems incredibly excessive.
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Oct 17, 2018 00:40
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thesurlyspringKAA posted:So uh... WHY did they do this again? Just because he was a critical journalist? This seems incredibly excessive. I'm starting to think that the Saudis might actually be a hilariously incompetent state run by a hereditary nobility who are utter monsters and think they can get away with whatever they want because divine right of
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Oct 17, 2018 00:57
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https://twitter.com/OnionPolitics/status/1052328630641147905/photo/1
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Oct 17, 2018 00:58
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The term here is "impunity". Absolute monarchs don't think they have to care about it.
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Oct 17, 2018 00:58
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thesurlyspringKAA posted:So uh... WHY did they do this again? Just because he was a critical journalist? This seems incredibly excessive. Dictators do poo poo like this to send the message that nobody's safe. If they'd kill a journalist who lives in the US and works for one of the most prominent news organizations on the planet, in a consulate in Turkey no less, every other expat who's critical of the government realizes they could be next. And of course any dissenters at home have even more reason to be afraid, which is why you'll probably see a lot less discussions along those lines from people living in the kingdom. I don't really buy into 12 dimensional chess theories, and think people acting like impulsive idiots mostly just are impulsive idiots, but if you do, showing everyone that the president of the United States will shamelessly cover for him could be a way for MBS to flex his muscles on the international stage too, and demonstrate that he very much thinks he's a Putin level world leader. Dr Kool-AIDS fucked around with this message at 01:07 on Oct 17, 2018 |
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Oct 17, 2018 00:58
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FourLeaf posted:https://twitter.com/iyad_elbaghdadi/status/1052200980417323008 I think MBS is hosed. i am probably wrong but i feel like MBS has to many enimies in too many places/levels of power and society and political hemespheres to last long. pro starcraft loser posted:Remind me why we are friends with SA and enemies with Iran again...? the hostage crisis mostly. People in power in both civilian and Military/Intellegence are still loving furious over loving that one up and being wrong on multiple levels with that crisis. out best period of warming relations was 9/11 which W pissed away and with Obama's deal which trump threw away. funny thing is if iran gets trump on a phone with them or some dumb visit thing. they could have him eating out of their hands. thesurlyspringKAA posted:So uh... WHY did they do this again? Just because he was a critical journalist? This seems incredibly excessive. probaly to send a message. hosed up thing is it wouldn't surprise me if it was an abduction gone bad. Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 02:15 on Oct 17, 2018 |
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Oct 17, 2018 02:13
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Dapper_Swindler posted:probaly to send a message. hosed up thing is it wouldn't surprise me if it was an abduction gone bad. If what Turkey's been leaking is true, they straight up murdered him, and there's not a lot of room for ambiguity about intent. I think that makes more sense than an abduction scenario anyway, since with him dead they present the world with a fait accompli in which everyone has to decide if they're willing to tank relations with the kingdom over something that can't be undone, whereas if he were alive they might find themselves in a situation where they'd face escalating demands to release him.
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Oct 17, 2018 02:44
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Did they feed the bits of Khashoggi to the King's pet Tiger or something?
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Oct 17, 2018 02:47
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Darth Walrus posted:Can I get context on Friedman? I’m more familiar with Milton than Thomas. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwFaSpca_3Q [Immigrant] met in a [conveyance] is evidence for a [neoliberal proposition] Also, friedman units.
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Oct 17, 2018 02:48
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Sinteres posted:If what Turkey's been leaking is true, they straight up murdered him, and there's not a lot of room for ambiguity about intent. I think that makes more sense than an abduction scenario anyway, since with him dead they present the world with a fait accompli in which everyone has to decide if they're willing to tank relations with the kingdom over something that can't be undone, whereas if he were alive they might find themselves in a situation where they'd face escalating demands to release him. Yeah but it still doesn't make sense that they sent 15 guys for a murder.
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Oct 17, 2018 02:51
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Sinteres posted:If what Turkey's been leaking is true, they straight up murdered him, and there's not a lot of room for ambiguity about intent. I think that makes more sense than an abduction scenario anyway, since with him dead they present the world with a fait accompli in which everyone has to decide if they're willing to tank relations with the kingdom over something that can't be undone, whereas if he were alive they might find themselves in a situation where they'd face escalating demands to release him. I really doubt anyone was thinking about the international reaction when they planned this. They didn't think they'd have this enormous spotlight on them.
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Oct 17, 2018 02:54
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