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The Muppets On PCP posted:if you want an example of a candidate's gaffe leading to getting hard up for volunteers a week later there's phil bredesen Last thing I read it was less than 10 out of hundreds of volunteers that said they were done showing up. I could be incorrect, but that doesn’t seem “hard up”.
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Oct 17, 2018 02:12
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it's not that anyone will care when campaigning begins in earnest it's that if they gently caress up this bad now what are they gonna gently caress up later.
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Oct 17, 2018 02:13
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punk rebel ecks posted:White people always are proud to say that they are part (1/32) Native American. I always find it so weird. After the whole genocide thing there isn't all that many people left that would meet your blood purity requirements, a vast majority of people left have mixed ancestry by this point. The chef of the cherokee nation is 1/32nd native. Most native families are that way, extreme race purity is rare. More people are 50% or 25% or 12% or whatever than are 100%. Most people you meet with native ancestry are going to be partially native in 2018. I honestly think the stereotype of "hehehehehe all the poors trying to claim they are indian princesses" is more about trying to delegitimize the idea of native populations by making up some welfare queen esq boogyman by trying to attack people that talk about being partially native (as a vast majority of natives are).
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Oct 17, 2018 02:14
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QuoProQuid posted:can you point to gaffes by other candidates that led to a problems in finding campaign volunteers a year later? hart's womanizing came up in '84 before he dared the media to follow him in '87 e: oh or hart daring the media to follow him in '87 and then restarting his campaign in '88 to get public funds to pay off his debts Raskolnikov38 fucked around with this message at 02:17 on Oct 17, 2018 |
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Oct 17, 2018 02:15
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twodot posted:Your stance here is that when the Cherokee use the word "heritage" it really means "citizenship", but when Warren uses "heritage" it means "inherited property" where the inherited property is "arbitrarily small bits of her DNA"? When they talk specifically about tribal governments and citizens with proven heritage yes they are referencing tribal membership. Which for the Cherokee Nation is how you are able to become a member via proven lineage dating back to a known ancestor (eg one on the Dawes Roll). Warren has never claimed tribal membership nor has she tried to take on any cultural heritage. But if you can find Warren claiming to be apart of the Cherokee Nation or any other tribe I am all ears. I don't blame the Cherokee Nation for being upset though they get the raw end on a lot of things and probably rather not be associated with any of it. Warren stated she was raised being told that she had an ancient ancestor that was Native American and the DNA test seems to confirm just that (unless you're also of the mind the indigenous people of South America don't count as Native American since that is what the DNA sample was compared to). Doesn't mean it is a good political move mind you.
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Oct 17, 2018 02:31
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QuoProQuid posted:can you point to gaffes by other candidates that led to a problems in finding campaign volunteers a year later? Obviously, there's no database of "party activists", and who they choose to endorse and why. Even if there were, it'd be impossible to establish causality. But this is how this sort of thing works! There's a loosely-connected network of core party activists in each state, and as the ~invisible primary~ starts up people start chatting about the candidates, evaluating how they're doing, maybe get pitches from activists in their networks to join them on one campaign or another. Things like lacklustre launches definitely get noticed in that circle, and I'd kinda expect that in an especially crowded field the impact is magnified since people have a lot of other places to look at. I'm not saying that because of this, Warren definitely won't have a full slate of 1700 precinct captains in Iowa or whatever, but I think a lot of party activists are suddenly going to be a bit more interested in what Bernie, Gillibrand and Klobuchar have to say over the next few months.
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Oct 17, 2018 02:37
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punk rebel ecks posted:White people always are proud to say that they are part (1/32) Native American. I always find it so weird. KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:The question is whether the test result aligns proportionate to the claims about it she has previously made, which, yes it does. Which is distinct from: pospysyl posted:She claimed that she is "part Native American," and having Native American DNA does not actually make you part Native American in the estimation of anyone who matters. If her only claim was that she had a distant Native ancestor, the DNA test would prove her correct, but her website and the video put out makes claims to "heritage" which she emphatically does not have. To the broader metaconversation: Statements and spokespeople have come out since Warren's release. The unifying theme is that Warren is not a member, that DNA testing is not suitable for those purposes, that heritage is not something transferred by blood, and that the damage caused to them by both this episode and this saga could have been avoided had she never claimed what she did/does not understand-a series of acts for which they see no contrition, and as the highest profile example of an immensely degrading pattern. Many note (ITT, subforum, and in broader punditry) that the first, and most immediately newsworthy, two points connect, at best, tangentially to Warren's claim that this confirms she has a Native American ancestor. It is worth pointing out, at this stage, that the Cherokee Nation, Kim TallBear, et.al owe Warren absolutely loving nothing, which was the point of my HamNo jibe upthread. This is an immensely rare situation where the media is proactively seeking them out to center them and their concerns in a major news story. They have zero responsibility to softpedal their takes, constrain their response to what Warren would like to focus on, or to treat her with kid gloves. Instead, they've chosen to use this spotlight to call attention to a major issue that resonates beyond any single tribe or academic, which is both understandable and probably the right call. What I'll note, and others have hinted at (maybe said explicitly in Trumpthread?) is that Warren is being hammered with these statements-with strikingly similar language and rhetoric-from both the left and the right. Again, this is in no way the fault, responsibility, or act of the groups and individiuals above. And we have seen this before: A candidate perceived as insufficiently progressive being hammered both by those on the left and by rightwing sources echoing (or, when they get there first, predicting) that progressive rhetoric. That so many of the same sources who gleefully boosted the attacks of Trump and Brown are now aghast at Warren's "callous and offensive stunt" gives up the game. We saw this in 2015/2016, and as TheCut pointed out, we've already seen it this cycle with Warren, by proudly rightwing groups who've explicitly announced their intent to attack her from the left. So what does this mean? Mostly, nothing. Good points are good points, regardless of their source. That CHUD media considers it a good attack doesn't mean that the groups listed above should do a drat thing differently. But it's worth paying attention to what's happening, where/how/by who narrative is formed, the infrastructure that's been created to support and spread it, and what I'm seeing as the most interesting question of the cycle: Why do charges of inauthenticity, untrustworthiness, corruption, and cynical calculation stick so quickly and durably to some candidates (Hillary, Booker, Warren, Harris) while essentially sliding right off of others (Biden, Bernie)?
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Oct 17, 2018 02:40
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Paracaidas posted:Why do charges of inauthenticity, untrustworthiness, corruption, and cynical calculation stick so quickly and durably to some candidates (Hillary, Booker, Warren, Harris) while essentially sliding right off of others (Biden, Bernie)? Biden's history does not point to this
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Oct 17, 2018 02:47
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Paracaidas posted:Why do charges of inauthenticity, untrustworthiness, corruption, and cynical calculation stick so quickly and durably to some candidates (Hillary, Booker, Warren, Harris) while essentially sliding right off of others (Biden, Bernie)?
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Oct 17, 2018 02:47
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Biden is squarely in that first camp.
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Oct 17, 2018 02:55
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Paracaidas posted:
Because Bernie owns those other losers including sex pest biden.
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Oct 17, 2018 02:58
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:After the whole genocide thing there isn't all that many people left that would meet your blood purity requirements, a vast majority of people left have mixed ancestry by this point. This is very sad.
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Oct 17, 2018 03:09
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Because Bernie is genuine in his passion and has a degree of conviction with what he believes that gives him legitimacy and he looks like a whacky grandpa. He amuses. Biden is cool Dad bro, and how can you hate him after the memes with Obama, man? Have a beer with him. Booker, Warren, Hillary, Harris are all dull squares no one wants to hang out with and have a beer. You want to have a beer with your politicians, right?
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Oct 17, 2018 03:13
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Biden is still surrounded by the glow of Obama nostalgia and dead kid sympathy. In a serious campaign all of his many flaws as a candidate would surface.
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Oct 17, 2018 03:15
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punk rebel ecks posted:This is very sad. One of my best friends grew up on a reservation in a tar paper shack with no electricity but are “only” 1/4th native. That is basically how it works, constantly attacking people for being not racically pure enough is how you attack a group that had a century’s long campaign to make sure few people are “pure”. My friend took a college scholarship and got constantly attacked for it for being fake any time anyone found out but literally did not own a toilet growing up for the extreme poverty.
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Oct 17, 2018 03:18
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:One of my best friends grew up on a reservation in a tar paper shack with no electricity but are “only” 1/4th native. That is basically how it works, constantly attacking people for being not racically pure enough is how you attack a group that had a century’s long campaign to make sure few people are “pure”. It seems that the race has been diluted but not the ethnicity (I hope this makes sense).
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Oct 17, 2018 03:20
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QuoProQuid posted:I seriously doubt that the Mayor of Los Angeles is going to be able to distinguish himself among an enormous crowd of better known and better funded opponents. Oh, it's hopeless for any longshotters if Biden runs. If not, I do think there's room for a third male candidate and to the extent anything matters at this stage (  , for the record), he's handling his early state work with a level of competence that national news and the punditry have found notable enough to remark on (or, cynically, that he has been able to get those stories planted, suggesting a different but still important sort of competence).B B posted:Something tells me Biden's not going to make it very far. Can't really put my finger on why though. QuoProQuid posted:can you point to gaffes by other candidates that led to a problems in finding campaign volunteers a year later? The impact of this episode with Warren will pale in comparison to the impact of Jeff Weaver accusing Bakari Sellers of sowing racial division for blasting Bernie's Obama callout in his "1,000 seats" stump speech on the anniversary of MLK's death. KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:It would be great if we could just put a nail in the implied causality here right away, because it’s just silly. Lessail posted:Biden's history does not point to this Groovelord Neato posted:Biden is squarely in that first camp. The linked Quinnipiac poll from September '15 (when a Biden run was considered a legitimate possibility, verging on likely) has Biden at 62% Yes/27% No/12% DK for trustworthiness-narrowly trailing Carson. (Hillary:32/63/5, Trump:35/57/8, Sanders:47/24/28, Jeb!:55/36/9) For "Cares about the needs and problems of people like me": Biden leads the poll at 61/32 (including a poll leading 64% with women and 60% without college degrees). Hillary 43/53, Trump 34/61, Bernie 48/31, Jeb! 47/46 Now I'd love for this to have changed and for people to see through his persona (he's got a plagiarism scandal, ffs!), but nothing from the early 2020 polls suggests that anything has.
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Oct 17, 2018 03:29
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punk rebel ecks posted:It seems that the race has been diluted but not the ethnicity (I hope this makes sense). Like, I'm sure someone somewhere is lying about their native heritage and raking in the huge praise and benefits people seem to claim people get for saying they are 1/64th native illegitimately, just like I know someone somewhere cheats on welfare. But like, the amount it happens vs the amount people just "know" it's happening and will talk endlessly about it as some epidemic issue at any chance seems like a huge gulf. Like yeah, more people are 1/8th native than people that are exactly pure blooded, which was like the whole point of a hundreds of years long campaign to make sure that happened. If you seem to only meet people with great great great great grandmas that were native and not so many people that are fully native now there is a pretty good reason for that.
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Oct 17, 2018 03:33
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Its a complicated as gently caress issue that changes depending on what nation and where they're located. A lot of the plains nations rely on the Dawes rolls to determine membership which is its own kettle of fish. Canada kept a pretty tight leash on their attempts to assimilated us so up until the mid 80s indian status was based solely on paternal lineage and there's been a lot of work trying to undo the damage done by that.
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Oct 17, 2018 03:36
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It's not even about people lying (which they probably aren't, if they're wrong it was whatever ancestor they got the story from that was lying.) Even its completely true, you don't think a white person who's family hasn't had any connection to it in living memory talking about their ancestry to make themselves seem more interesting is for example, going to contribute to the perception that any problems on the reservation are their own fault? Why, Bob over in payroll is is a 16th Cherokee and HE'S doing fine!
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Oct 17, 2018 03:53
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Paracaidas posted:
No one cares about this who was ever gonna give Bernie Sanders a primary vote, much less volunteer time, 'cause the entire issue was bullshit from the 8%'er twitter brainworm crew. Oh Snapple! fucked around with this message at 04:26 on Oct 17, 2018 |
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Oct 17, 2018 04:23
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reignonyourparade posted:It's not even about people lying (which they probably aren't, if they're wrong it was whatever ancestor they got the story from that was lying.) Even its completely true, you don't think a white person who's family hasn't had any connection to it in living memory talking about their ancestry to make themselves seem more interesting is for example, going to contribute to the perception that any problems on the reservation are their own fault? Why, Bob over in payroll is is a 16th Cherokee and HE'S doing fine! Again, I'm sure that exists, like I'm sure someone somewhere in the history of the world has gotten rich of welfare. But like, it sure seems like a thing everyone "knows" happens compared to how much it seems to actually happen. Like talking to that friend people absolutely 100% use her as the example of one of those cheating fakers, since she is doing fine now and went to college for free and looks very white (but literally grew up in a shack with no power). Like people that reap huge benefits from saying they are native seems like those people that you always hear about that are getting all the praise for faking rape allegations. It's a thing people claim other people claim because it gets them some huge praise but it sure seems to not actually do that. Like you sure don't seem to think bob in accounting is so impressive, you actually seem pretty scornful of him. Which seems the actual standard.
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Oct 17, 2018 04:25
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Literally no one but you is even talking about getting BENEFITS from it, except perhaps the very minor benefit of feeling slightly more interesting than they otherwise might.
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Oct 17, 2018 04:28
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"Wow, people on this politically aware, left leaning forum sure don't like cops, I dont see how they could possibly be getting acquitted of all these murders like people are saying"
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Oct 17, 2018 04:34
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reignonyourparade posted:Literally no one but you is even talking about getting BENEFITS from it, except perhaps the very minor benefit of feeling slightly more interesting than they otherwise might. Like the idea is that it's awfully convenient that a country that decimated a group down to a small number of members and intentionally broke up the population has a convenient story to tell themselves that all the people they meet that are native are just a bunch of fakers. Like the actual chief of the cherokee is 1/32nd. And the reason you hear mostly about people that had a great great great etc grandma that was native and you just weirdly don't hear much about people that are fully native themselves these days compared to that is not because of a bunch of fakers, it's for a very specific reason about things that happened between great great great etc grandma time and 2018 that made most of the people left to meet only have long ago ancestors compared to how many people survived in active communities.
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Oct 17, 2018 04:40
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Nah. People make fun of the white people who do it.
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Oct 17, 2018 04:44
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reignonyourparade posted:Nah. People make fun of the white people who do it. I commend Owlofcreamcheese for his insight, but yeah that's what my initial post was referring to. I know a lot of Trump supporters from Whitesville suburbs who hate blacks, latinos, and all other minorities and think identity politics are stupid, but then proceed to talk about how they are actually part Cherokee on their dads side from like 200 years ago. Similar to white people finding out that they are actually 5% black from 23andme, therefore they can't be racist. 
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Oct 17, 2018 04:54
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reignonyourparade posted:Nah. People make fun of the white people who do it. This is the chief of the cherokee nation. He's 1/32nd native. His name is Bill Baker.  If you saw him would you know to be super harsh and mock the dumb dumb white fakey faker or would your spidey sense tell you he was one of the good ones and that he's the one you need to be respectful to? What would stop you from making fun of my very very white looking friend who literally grew up in abject poverty on a reservation. Like maybe just don't make fun of people that are native based on some weird pureblood standard thing that you can't possibly know about any specific person by looking at them. lots of "real" natives these days are people that had a grandma or a great great grandma or whatever, That is a result of smashing up communities over and over, and the idea to attack people for being mixed race is hosed up. Or some weird idea you can just look at a person and know.
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Oct 17, 2018 05:05
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Gonna go out on a limb and guess that when Bill Baker talks about his heritage, it's not through just casually dropping his blood quantum and leaving it at that.
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Oct 17, 2018 05:14
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Right now I'm working front counter in rural chud Washington, I hear from a lot of people who hate that the local tribes actually get most of the fishing rights they're supposed to be treaty, "they don't actually count" has just never made it into the racism people assume I will appreciate as small talk.Oh Snapple! posted:Gonna go out on a limb and guess that when Bill Baker talks about his heritage, it's not through just casually dropping his blood quantum and leaving it at that.
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Oct 17, 2018 05:19
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This deserves posting https://medium.com/the-shocker/2020-in-20-20-a-look-back-at-the-upcoming-election-eba9e6258144
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Oct 17, 2018 05:56
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:This is the chief of the cherokee nation. He's 1/32nd native. His name is Bill Baker. TGRS’s Native American thread might be a better place for discussion of this outside of Warren’s presumable campaign’s disasters as enlightening as it is, this is the 2020 primary thread and a deep dive into this is most likely going to get lost when we’re discussing who next shoots their presidential ambitions in the foot three weeks from now my money is on it being whichever Castro brother looked ascendant getting caught for something, personally Party Plane Jones fucked around with this message at 06:09 on Oct 17, 2018 |
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Oct 17, 2018 06:07
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:This is the chief of the cherokee nation. He's 1/32nd native. His name is Bill Baker.  he literally looks like jeb bush jesis christ
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Oct 17, 2018 06:10
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^^^ Those men do not look similar at all, lolOwlofcreamcheese posted:One of my best friends grew up on a reservation in a tar paper shack with no electricity but are “only” 1/4th native. That is basically how it works, constantly attacking people for being not racically pure enough is how you attack a group that had a century’s long campaign to make sure few people are “pure”. Owlofcreamcheese posted:Like the idea is that it's awfully convenient that a country that decimated a group down to a small number of members and intentionally broke up the population has a convenient story to tell themselves that all the people they meet that are native are just a bunch of fakers. Like the actual chief of the cherokee is 1/32nd. And the reason you hear mostly about people that had a great great great etc grandma that was native and you just weirdly don't hear much about people that are fully native themselves these days compared to that is not because of a bunch of fakers, it's for a very specific reason about things that happened between great great great etc grandma time and 2018 that made most of the people left to meet only have long ago ancestors compared to how many people survived in active communities. There are not remotely analogous situations, because Warren is not accepted as part of a Native nation/community. The correct reason to condemn her (and other people that make these claims in similar situations) is not because of the low (inherently questionable due to issues with testing) genetic match (though that does make the fact she brought it up even goofier), but rather that she (and other similar people) are not actually part of a community. The Native communities themselves should have the power to decide these things, not random people who heard a story about their great great great grandparent being Native or whatever (unless they've been accepted by a tribe). Paracaidas posted:What I'll note, and others have hinted at (maybe said explicitly in Trumpthread?) is that Warren is being hammered with these statements-with strikingly similar language and rhetoric-from both the left and the right. Again, this is in no way the fault, responsibility, or act of the groups and individiuals above. And we have seen this before: A candidate perceived as insufficiently progressive being hammered both by those on the left and by rightwing sources echoing (or, when they get there first, predicting) that progressive rhetoric. That so many of the same sources who gleefully boosted the attacks of Trump and Brown are now aghast at Warren's "callous and offensive stunt" gives up the game. We saw this in 2015/2016, and as TheCut pointed out, we've already seen it this cycle with Warren, by proudly rightwing groups who've explicitly announced their intent to attack her from the left. lol this post could basically be next the dictionary entry for "just asking questions" Just say what you mean, dude. Even if you're not sure about it, just say "it seems to me like X might be happening" instead of just vaguely alluding to a bunch of things. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 06:16 on Oct 17, 2018 |
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Oct 17, 2018 06:12
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Party Plane Jones posted:
Can we just make the thread Clue, but with guessing who, where, and with what someone will shoot themselves in the foot over
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Oct 17, 2018 06:13
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this was a stupid decision for warren. I mean no one is going to go lookup the leader of the cherokee nation to see his cherokiness who's a mainstream voter this subf thrives on all of us collectively digging through articles and cross examining each other. they will solely see the fact that she posted that stupid loving "proof"
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Oct 17, 2018 06:15
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Oh Snapple! posted:Can we just make the thread Clue, but with guessing who, where, and with what someone will shoot themselves in the foot over biden, a delaware public pool, segregation
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Oct 17, 2018 06:20
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Oh Snapple! posted:Can we just make the thread Clue, but with guessing who, where, and with what someone will shoot themselves in the foot over Cory Booker, at the Iowa State Fair, with a veggie corn dog.
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Oct 17, 2018 06:39
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e: gonna take it to the Native American thread per PPJ's request
KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD fucked around with this message at 07:08 on Oct 17, 2018 |
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Oct 17, 2018 06:48
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Cory Booker, reaching out to the younger folks with Joementum: https://twitter.com/libcasey/status/1052662865411416064 https://www.twitch.tv/washingtonpost
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Oct 17, 2018 21:52
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