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Motronic posted:You just highlighted a risk to them and if they are a well run business they will be actively working to mitigate it.
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Oct 18, 2018 15:44
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The new company sounds like it better aligns with your goals specifically with education assistance which is at least $5k in year two. Ask for 37k+ from the new company and leave regardless. It also sounds more stable. If you stay, do not train a replacement. Doing so will put you in a pretty bad spot if they need to get rid of people due to lack of clients, etc. asur fucked around with this message at 16:46 on Oct 18, 2018 |
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Oct 18, 2018 16:40
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Well, I had a call with the hiring manager from the new job. He reassured me that I wouldn't be confined to a single role at the company, so that takes that fear away. The bigger worry from me was closing a door and not getting another opportunity at a great company, but he also said they'd be receptive if I changed my mind. I should mention that they were very quick with the interview process, and I spoke to about 7 people over the course of a week and got an offer the day after the last interview, so they must've liked me. Right now, I'm leaning on staying with the intention of leaving later when I feel like I've truly exhausted my potential there and (preferably) won't leave the company in bad shape. Part of it is also having lost my dad this month, with this adding yet another life changing event and a stressful decision. My boss and the owners attended the funeral, and I couldn't bring myself to give them notice when I returned to work the next day. I also revealed this when I talked to the hiring manager, to give him some insight into my situation. Based on our conversation, I don't think I'll be burning a bridge by backing out. He seemed like a legitimately great manager who cares about allowing employees to do what's best for themselves. I think he'd would be more than happy to find out I was ready to move, even if it's not right now.
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Oct 18, 2018 16:43
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Why are you considering staying at a company that knew they were underpaying you and wouldn't give you either the raise or title equivalent to your responsibilities? They've clearly demonstrated that they have zero loyalty to you and are only giving you an increase now because it hurts them if they dont. Stop being loyal to them for no reason and go with the company that is willing to pay you what you're worth and with a manager who appears to actually care about your personal development. Just to be clear, if you want to stay for the extra 5k then that's one thing, but your posts are conveying that you feel guilty for leaving because they can't replace you and gently caress that. That's not your problem and you shouldn't feel bad about leaving, that's on them. asur fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Oct 18, 2018 |
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Oct 18, 2018 16:53
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It’s not personal for the company either. They paid market value. When they were presented new information, they changed their compensation. Don’t stay just because you feel guilty, but do stay if you’re going to have better outcomes a year from now by staying (ie better salary and position with which to negotiate your next move). Unrelated but also... full time remote is hard. Have you done it before? If not, think long and hard about whether or not it’s the right choice for you.
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Oct 18, 2018 17:07
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gandlethorpe posted:After telling my manager, she discussed it with the owner of the company. They brought me in for a meeting and offered me a $32k raise (basically 66%) with 5k immediate bonus and to adjust my title to something more appropriate (which definitely looks great on a resume). quote:I mentioned my preference for working remote, and they agreed to letting me work from home 4 days a week. I had underestimated what they were capable of offering, so this caught me by surprise. quote:Also, I've been talking to co-workers and knew that my manager has been trying to get me a raise for a while, which was confirmed today. They fully acknowledged that my skills far exceeded what I was making, mentioning that budget concerns over the past two years were the biggest reason for their slowness to act. quote:Now, I admit I'm a bit of a sap. I feel some loyalty to the company quote:because I was struggling before I started there. quote:The owner and my mom also have some history. In fact, my mom was the one mentoring me on my job search because she knows how frugal the owner can be. quote:But I'm making sure not to let guilt or personal ties be a deciding factor. quote:The biggest factor making this decision hard is the variety of work. I still enjoy the work I get to do and I get to learn a lot. If I didn't, I would've snapped months ago. I worry that at the new job, I would have a very narrow role and wouldn't really get a chance to learn different skills. quote:On the flip side, the new job probably has more financial potential in the long run. The benefits are strictly better than what I have currently, and yearly raises are pretty much a given, with the possibility of bonuses. quote:My current company doesn't do bonuses, and probably only does raises if you make a big enough fuss, which is definitely not my ideal. quote:Finally, in terms of what I want long term, I'm not really planning to stay in this industry. I eventually would like to transition toward (but maybe not exactly) software development. I really don't want to be locked into this industry, so building a wide technical skill set is really important to me. I fear that going to the new company would essentially be making a commitment to do this for several more years. I work for x amount of hours. You pay me for X amount of hours. Unless you have a contract that specifies otherwise, that is it. quote:What do? Take the other job. Edit* gandlethorpe posted:I don't want to insist that I'm special or anything, but I do think they'd have an incredibly hard time replacing me, due to the unique combination of roles I fill. That, and in the 3+ years I've been there, there's never been a high turnaround of permanent employees. They tend to keep people as long as they can. quote:My biggest concern if I stayed would be them not being able to pull in enough business. While permanent employees have been around a while, this past year saw a lot of contractors come and go. But I could definitely put in another year and observe how things are going. I'm also not above training a replacement to make the transition easier. quote:Really it boils down to staying a big fish in a small pond, or being more of a cog in a machine. Why not a big fish in a big pond? If you don't move to the bigger pond, you will never grow. Edit edit* gandlethorpe posted:Right now, I'm leaning on staying with the intention of leaving later when I feel like I've truly exhausted my potential there and (preferably) won't leave the company in bad shape. quote:Part of it is also having lost my dad this month, with this adding yet another life-changing event and a stressful decision. My boss and the owners attended the funeral, and I couldn't bring myself to give them notice when I returned to work the next day. quote:I also revealed this when I talked to the hiring manager, to give him some insight into my situation. Based on our conversation, I don't think I'll be burning a bridge by backing out. He seemed like a legitimately great manager who cares about allowing employees to do what's best for themselves. I think he'd would be more than happy to find out I was ready to move, even if it's not right now. FlapYoJacks fucked around with this message at 17:19 on Oct 18, 2018 |
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Oct 18, 2018 17:13
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I say go to the new company, as per usual. I think a counteroffer has to be overwhelmingly good AND you have to be pretty drat confident they won't replace you. It's good but I don't think it's overwhelmingly good. Having a comfortable job you like and want to stay at is solid evidence that you're underpaid and staying there is how you stay underpaid, even if they temporarily pay you more. The practice in stepping out of your comfort zone is well worth it. You've warmed my heart with the story (sorry for your loss). Given that, I won't insist that you hold them over the barrel and tell them you'll give them an extra month of "notice period" in exchange for the $5000 and 2x their proposed salary increase to help find/train a replacement. You don't have to do that, but you can. I'm not insisting. It's only $5000.
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Oct 18, 2018 17:14
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Since I won't be burning a bridge, I'm more comfortable staying with the intention of leaving eventually. It would be an intermediate step too, in terms of going remote. I'd get a chance to see what it's like, but with a smoother transition since the office is still near. With the other life changing events going on, maybe it would be better for me to hang onto some familiarity a little longer. Honestly, a few months ago, I was so desperate for a change in my life I even thought about quitting to do school full time. Now, there's too much change going on.
gandlethorpe fucked around with this message at 17:19 on Oct 18, 2018 |
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Oct 18, 2018 17:17
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OP decided to stay at his current job before writing the post, it's not going to be helpful to try to persuade him otherwise. Only help we can provide is to try to make him aware that, in all probability, his situation is not special and the company will soon be looking to replace him. He likewise needs to continue looking for his next job even after turning down this one. Almost everyone makes the mistake of turning down a better offer out of misguided feelings of loyalty once. After all, managers and executives put a lot of effort into fostering loyalty from employees while giving them none back, and less experienced people are easier to take advantage of. A lot of people make the mistake twice before they finally begin to see the business world for what it is: business. OP, good luck with your role going forward, but please continue looking for your next job and make sure you protect yourself.
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Oct 18, 2018 17:20
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gandlethorpe posted:Since I won't be burning a bridge, I'm more comfortable staying with the intention of leaving eventually. It would be an intermediate step too, in terms of going remote. I'd get a chance to see what it's like, but with a smoother transition since the office is still near. With the other life changing events going on, maybe it would be better for me to hang onto some familiarity a little longer. Honestly, a few months ago, I was so desperate for a change in my life I even thought about quitting to do school full time. Now, there's too much change going on. From everything you have said, you are working for a poorly managed company that has a tight-wadded owner who doesn't actually give a poo poo about you (or else you would have been making $32,000 more several months ago.) Stop being loyal to companies, it's a death sentence to your sanity and career as a whole. You do work, they pay you, that's who it works.
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Oct 18, 2018 17:21
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This is your fear of change made manifest, quit listening to it! You were always going to feel anxiety over leaving your comfort zone, regardless of circumstance. Even when you were miserable six months ago, when it would have come time to leave, you'd hear a little voice telling you not to because it's scary and this is comfortable. Like, you're allowed to choose to stay, but that's not a good reason to and you'd be hurting yourself by listening to it. Change is never anywhere near as bad as you think it's going to be. If you don't burn the bridge you can even potentially go back if six months passes and you hate it.
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Oct 18, 2018 17:23
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Thanks for the tips everyone. I'm gonna make the stupid decision because people usually aren't in the right mind while grieving. Maybe in a few months I'll come around.
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Oct 18, 2018 17:24
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The Negotiation Thread: GoonInTheWell.txt
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Oct 18, 2018 17:25
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How is leaving a company burning a bridge? I hate that businesses have let that mentality creep into the consciousness of the worker. Leave them, thank them for the opportunity and being concerned about your recent loss, but you need to look out for you and your career. Edit: LMAO you know you’re not thinking right and know it’s the wrong decision ultimately and you’re sticking with it. Goon in well indeed
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Oct 18, 2018 17:27
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George H.W. oval office posted:How is leaving a company burning a bridge? I hate that businesses have let that mentality creep into the consciousness of the worker. Leave them, thank them for the opportunity and being concerned about your recent loss, but you need to look out for you and your career. If leaving a company would be burning a bridge, it's a lovely company that I don't want to have a bridge with.
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Oct 18, 2018 17:28
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Probably could have negotiated the new job for a much higher salary. You shoulda done that so your decision looks even more stupid. Just kidding. Do whatever. But the thread's giving you good advice and you're not doing the rational thing, as you recognize.
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Oct 18, 2018 17:30
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Hoodwinker posted:And if they're not, it's not your problem. Really, it's not. My point was that mitigation could (will) include giving him his raise for the next 6 months while they work that out and then boot him.
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Oct 18, 2018 17:42
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Motronic posted:My point was that mitigation could (will) include giving him his raise for the next 6 months while they work that out and then boot him.
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Oct 18, 2018 17:43
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They just gave him a 66% raise. You don't give out 66% raises without doing some rethinking about your business model (i.e. replacing this expensive sob).
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Oct 18, 2018 17:47
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Motronic posted:My point was that mitigation could (will) include giving him his raise for the next 6 months while they work that out and then boot him. Exactly. Being informed by an employee you depend on heavily that he's got another offer and is about to leave can be an "Oh poo poo!" moment for management, who will respond by paying what it takes to keep the employee in place long enough to reorganize things and make him nonessential. Happens all the time. But almost all young people have to make this mistake for themselves to cure their naivete. It's one of those things young people just don't believe older people about until it happens to them. I didn't. You probably didn't either.
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Oct 18, 2018 17:59
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Eric the Mauve posted:Exactly. Being informed by an employee you depend on heavily that he's got another offer and is about to leave can be an "Oh poo poo!" moment for management, who will respond by paying what it takes to keep the employee in place long enough to reorganize things and make him nonessential. Happens all the time.
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Oct 18, 2018 18:32
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This may be a silly question, but- How much of a red flag is it that a company that you have applied to responds the next day to ask you in for an interview, gives you an offer that same day, and accepts your counteroffer (13%(yes, yes, should've asked for more)). I'm asking this for my wife, who is a bit freaked out by such a quick and positive response. Everything she has seen from the company seems concretely positive, they are in a hot job market, and are enmeshed in a government bonded contract for which although the funding is by no means invulnerable, it has been passed. Said contract has been and will continue to be extensive in scope. Goon detectives may even be able to guess what contract I'm referring to, but I digress. Unfortunately, we moved here a year and a half ago and she has not yet networked to the extent she would like, so she knows no one at the company whom she might ask for the inside scoop. Is this really a red flag at all? They really did seem to like her in the interview, had strongly positive things to say regarding her portfolio, and she does have some pretty unique, hard to get stuff in her background for someone of her experience level.
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Oct 19, 2018 03:53
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You can conclude she's drastically undervalued herself, but I'm not sure you can confidently conclude anything about the company based on that. If it's the company I'm assuming it is, who the hell even knows what their processes are from day to day. e: the main takeaway from getting an offer the same day as your interview is that the company already considered you the leading candidate before they interviewed you (else they would conduct other interviews before deciding who to bring back for another round or offer the job.) Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 04:08 on Oct 19, 2018 |
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Oct 19, 2018 03:59
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My company moves very fast on interviewees that we love. Sometimes same-day offers, otherwise always within 24-48 hours. I think it's a pretty good company in the grand scheme of things. We know what we're looking for and we know our budget, why waste time? It's a job seekers market out there right now, especially in engineering. Got to move fast or you get left behind, especially at a smaller company without big-name recognition.
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Oct 19, 2018 04:06
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gandlethorpe posted:Thanks for the tips everyone. I'm gonna make the stupid decision because people usually aren't in the right mind while grieving. Maybe in a few months I'll come around. I have a question, one that you may have answered but I missed. Did you ask for more money / raises / whatever before you started job searching? Eric the Mauve posted:Exactly. Being informed by an employee you depend on heavily that he's got another offer and is about to leave can be an "Oh poo poo!" moment for management, who will respond by paying what it takes to keep the employee in place long enough to reorganize things and make him nonessential. Happens all the time. Isn't necessarily a bad thing as long as you have your eyes and options open.
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Oct 21, 2018 23:51
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Currently in the final phases of an interview process that so far, has been going well. I currently make 62.5K, and was hoping for at least a small bump in pay, although I am eager to leave my current job as my boss is verbally abusive and morale here is very low (3 people have quit in the same week and one person was fired for filing a sexual harassment claim, and there are likely more on the way). When I first spoke with the recruiter, they specifically said they have 45-60k budgeted for the role. This is the first time a hard range has been offered to me so soon in the process. I simply said that I was at the top level of that range, and I'd like to learn a bit more about the role before going into more specifics about pay. Is that pretty much a sign that the figure cannot move at all? The position seems nice and is entirely remote. I want to ask for more, but I also don't want to sabotage it. It's a weird job title too, so it's hard to find specific salary info for my experience and area. Thoughts? chibi luda fucked around with this message at 15:52 on Oct 22, 2018 |
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Oct 22, 2018 15:50
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It's a sign that the company is cheap and looking to hire at under market. Either that or you're overpaid at your current job. The figure they have in mind is about $55K and if they won't go over that... well, the first thing to do is aggressively ask for nonsalary compensation (extra PTO, company pay for classes/certifications that are relevant to you, and whatnot) and the second thing to do--IF YOU'RE SURE YOU'RE NOT CURRENTLY OVERPAID--is turn it down and keep looking while toughing it out in your current job. e: I should add the standard reminder that as far as any kind of nonsalary comp goes, if it's not in writing it doesn't exist. A verbal promise to do this or that at a later date means absolutely nothing.
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Oct 22, 2018 16:07
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Definitely leave sooner than later because lol being fired for filing sexual harassment is lawsuit time and it’s not gonna be pretty
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Oct 23, 2018 16:23
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George H.W. oval office posted:Definitely leave sooner than later because lol being fired for filing sexual harassment is lawsuit time and it’s not gonna be pretty I've only heard some the details, but I'm sickened. Things are pretty grim here.
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Oct 23, 2018 19:10
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I've been a QC Chemist (MSc) for 7 years at a large company. Looking for a new job because my manager won't promote me yet will never let me go to another department either. Just started interviewing and my first few interviews have gone very well. Really appreciate all advice, because I have never negotiated before. I had a small 40-person environmental testing company tell me they plan to give me an offer for a Lab-Manager-in-training role (3 direct reports) that I interviewed for. As described, the role is perfect, except that they are just offering the title of Chemist with the verbal assurance that after training I'll be promoted to Lab Manager and the current manager will switch to part-time Chemist and gradually retire. I'm unsure how to handle negotiations because this is a transitional role. I have not gotten the formal offer yet, but it is for the Chemist level and I doubt they will specify the raise that will come with the promotion. The Chemist pay is less than I was offered elsewhere, but to be honest I hardly care because the Lab Manager title and responsibilities are a great opportunity. However, I would not take this Chemist job if it wasn't manager-in-training. I suppose the worst case is that the manager decides not to retire and I'm a Chemist looking for a better job just like I am today (with somewhat worse benefits). On the other hand starting at lower pay may hurt my ability to negotiate in a year when they've already landed me. Should I get the expected salary as manager down on paper now? More importantly, should I get something down like “If performance is satisfactory, I will be promoted to Metals Department Manager summer of 2019” (That is what we verbally agreed on). Is an email confirmation ok, or should I ask for that to be written into the offer letter? teardrop fucked around with this message at 02:58 on Oct 25, 2018 |
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Oct 25, 2018 02:51
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teardrop posted:*snip* OT, but is your avatar supposed to be a venn diagram?
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Oct 25, 2018 03:01
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teardrop posted:I've been a QC Chemist (MSc) for 7 years at a large company. Looking for a new job because my manager won't promote me yet will never let me go to another department either. Just started interviewing and my first few interviews have gone very well. Really appreciate all advice, because I have never negotiated before. If any of this would change your decision to take the job you should get it in writing in the offer letter. It should be specific on both the criteria for promotion and the increase in pay. Verbal promises might happen, but it's very easy for either party to have a different interpretation on what was said, forget, or just straight up lie about it. For salary specifically, getting it written down should require that it go through the same channels and approvals that would be required when you get promoted. This should help nail down what you get and limits the potential for the any sort of confusion.
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Oct 25, 2018 03:27
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Absolutely do not take a job based on promises of what will happen down the road. Take it for what is on paper in front of you.
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Oct 25, 2018 03:38
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PBS posted:OT, but is your avatar supposed to be a venn diagram? Yes, I got it by telling someone that the Venn diagram of two of the groups they mentioned was a circle.
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Oct 25, 2018 04:03
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asur posted:If any of this would change your decision to take the job you should get it in writing in the offer letter. It should be specific on both the criteria for promotion and the increase in pay. Verbal promises might happen, but it's very easy for either party to have a different interpretation on what was said, forget, or just straight up lie about it. How can I specify promotion criteria, when my “readiness” is a matter of their opinion? Saying “if satisfactory” waters it down a lot but I don’t know what else to say. And if I wasn’t satisfactory, they could fire me the day before promotion even if everything was written in stone. About the raise, this may sound weird, but I would almost be ok getting the promotion without the raise. After a few years of experience if I’m underpaid I could leave. BLS lists median pay for Lab Manager as almost double what I make now, so while I don’t want to leave money on the table, I feel like it hardly matters compared to moving up to management.
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Oct 25, 2018 04:25
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teardrop posted:How can I specify promotion criteria, when my “readiness” is a matter of their opinion? Saying “if satisfactory” waters it down a lot but I don’t know what else to say. And if I wasn’t satisfactory, they could fire me the day before promotion even if everything was written in stone. If they have a specific annual review system you could use that. In most it's rare that you get below average unless you're in the process of being fired. Another option would be the promotion is automatic upon completion of the training. At the end of the day if they want to screw you they can, but having things in writing requires that mutliple parties be onboard, HR, the guy above whoever is promising you this, etc. It also reduces the possibility of misunderstandings. asur fucked around with this message at 04:35 on Oct 25, 2018 |
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Oct 25, 2018 04:32
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Did end up receiving a sizeable raise. Not enough to make me stay long term, but enough to raise my BATNA considerably.
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Oct 25, 2018 07:13
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At what point do you ask about work hours? Is it appropriate to ask after receiving an offer?
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Oct 25, 2018 16:21
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First time negotiator, expecting a phone call with an offer next week. My most senior interviewer said “negotiate on the PTO, you deserve more than the base” so I know negotiating is expected. My BATNA is not great because this job has a big perk, written assurance of a promotion to manager. I really want that job. I do have 1 other offer but think I can do better so will negotiate hard there. This is a 40-person “employee-focused” company where everyone was super nice, so I don’t want to ruffle any feathers. I’ve written up a script for my questions and counteroffers for the offer whenever the call comes. I’d like to ask for $5-15k more depending on their offer, but what’s the nicest phrasing for my counteroffer? What do you think of: “I am very excited by the company, but less so by the salary. Is there any flexibility in the range of this offer?” What do you think of these other true statements: A. “Despite my starting title, the plan is for me to rapidly take on manager-level duties, which merits more than the usual pay for this role.” B. “Although I understand that a raise will come with the promotion, I do want to have something on paper before changing companies, and the best way to do that seems like starting salary.” C. “Based on my research and discussions with recruiters, I should be looking for a salary in the mid-to-high 70s.” D. “(if very low) Let me be clear, this is my first choice, but I do have an offer for $68 plus bonus right now that I’d love to have you match.” teardrop fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Oct 25, 2018 |
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Oct 25, 2018 18:38
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Those alternatives are better than the first one. You have it down that you want X and say as such. Do not let it be open ended by them to agree to flexibility. After reviewing the offer I would like X and Y based on duties required, competitor offers. Also make sure to get that promotion in writing with a deadline
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Oct 25, 2018 18:42
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