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Won't complain that at least it agrees the Great Purge was necessary for fighting a legitimate fifth column of Trotskyites.
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Oct 18, 2018 18:59
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Koramei posted:I don't think they should put in the holocaust, I think they shouldn't have put in the allied atrocities in the first place. "It's okay because we don't model it affecting civilians" seems like an incredibly artificial justification considering we all know the implications behind what's going on. They really didn’t model any allied atrocities that I’ve seen. Unless you have like a really loose definition of atrocities? Nukes I guess? Though anyone can use them.
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Oct 18, 2018 19:01
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apparently you haven't seen
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Oct 18, 2018 19:02
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CharlestheHammer posted:They really didn’t model any allied atrocities that I’ve seen. Are you suggesting that the Bengal Famine and Apartheid were not atrocities? Or are you just selectively not reading half of the posts in this discussion?
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Oct 18, 2018 19:07
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In order to avoid any accidental revisionism, you need to complete a test like in Leisure Suit Larry 3 before you are allowed to select any country, demonstrating that when you lead the Nazis to victory in the East, you will be somber enough after your "hell yeah I beat the game" to append "but really was it worth it?"
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Oct 18, 2018 19:08
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:Are you suggesting that the Bengal Famine and Apartheid were not atrocities? Or are you just selectively not reading half of the posts in this discussion? Apartheid is a government it’s akin to saying the Nazis being a thing is an atrocity in itself. Which is technically true I guess but kind of undermines the point. The Bengal famine is a thing but one example isn’t a great counterpoint.
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Oct 18, 2018 19:09
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Won't complain that at least it agrees the Great Purge was necessary for fighting a legitimate fifth column of Trotskyites. Tell us your opinions on armored vehicles and Czechoslovakia next.
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Oct 18, 2018 19:10
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I can totally see why it isn't there, but honestly, if it were me, I'd include an event chain with possibly some mechanical effects for both the Holocaust and Generalplan Ost. I wouldn't give the players any direct input in it, other than tying it Germany being ruled by the nazis and occupying Poland, Belarus and Ukraine for a while (and the Western Soviet Union with possibly the Soviets being at a certain surrender progress for Generalplan Ost), because yeah if you are the Nazis and you launch WWII and occupy those countries, you will have caused those things to happen. I'm out. Seriously this is a dangeorus and unproductive rabbithole. zedprime posted:In order to avoid any accidental revisionism, you need to complete a test like in Leisure Suit Larry 3 before you are allowed to select any country, demonstrating that when you lead the Nazis to victory in the East, you will be somber enough after your "hell yeah I beat the game" to append "but really was it worth it?" I'm very interested in the details of this.
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Oct 18, 2018 19:11
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i think it is good to have allied atrocities in the game, because they aren't well-known and people should know about them - games like HoI are a major vector for historical knowledge. but if you're going to simultaneously shy away from the monstrous nature of the axis governments... i don't think it's good to have more atrocity events for britain than germany (i have no idea if this is the case currently or not btw) even if the british were also racist imperialists. there's a pretty clear moral high ground in WW2, unlike most wars. i'm of the opinion that the game should really do its best to make you feel bad if you play as nazi germany, now that there are alternate paths to take as germany, but i understand why paradox doesn't really do that, too Jazerus fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Oct 18, 2018 |
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Oct 18, 2018 19:13
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StealthArcher posted:Tell us your opinions on armored vehicles and Czechoslovakia next. Tanks are good, crushing the Hungarian uprising and ending the pogroms was one of the only good things Khrushchev did. And members of the Czech government asked for Soviet and Warsaw pact intervention.
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Oct 18, 2018 19:19
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I think it's entirely sustainable to say that this is a game about pushing counters around a map with a historical setting for the theme, rather than a game that's trying to simulate and actual war. WW2 brings the clearest examples of moral issues to the forefront, but you could make the same arguments about a Total War game, or Civilisation, or any number of other games you choose. I suppose HOI is a bit more vulnerable because there's a conscious choice to heavily include politics in the game but not that sort of politics.
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Oct 18, 2018 19:20
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Randarkman posted:I'm very interested in the details of this. You were asked questions at startup to verify that you were an adult. http://allowe.com/games/larry/tips-manuals/lsl3-age-quiz.html Here's an example video from the original. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nhp7nWZkMZQ
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Oct 18, 2018 19:46
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ulmont posted:You were asked questions at startup to verify that you were an adult. We need this but for playing the Byzantine Empire in EU4. Question 1: You realize even the amount of power we've given this country at game start is unbelievably optimistic given the dire situation they found themselves in, correct?
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Oct 18, 2018 19:52
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Is something broken or Vassals in EU4 are unable to attack overseas? I declared war and I am losing hand over fist as my vassals refuse to take part in the war.
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Oct 18, 2018 20:02
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:Are you suggesting that the Bengal Famine and Apartheid were not atrocities? Or are you just selectively not reading half of the posts in this discussion?
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Oct 18, 2018 20:04
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Won't complain that at least it agrees the Great Purge was necessary for fighting a legitimate fifth column of Trotskyites. loving trots get the bullet Strudel Man posted:Unless I'm misremembering, the famine isn't in as something anybody "does." It's a background threat that you, as India, can take steps to avoid, but there's no actions on the part of anyone in the game to make it worse. Given that, it seems inaccurate to say that the game is modeling it as an atrocity. yeah it's just completely glossing over British complicity in the effects (Churchill directly denied a bunch of request for food and supplies) indigi fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Oct 18, 2018 |
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Oct 18, 2018 20:07
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Really the only time war crimes have been addressed well in a wargame was in DG's Barbarossa, where you were not only a field marshal who had to actually come up with war plans and a bureaucrat who had to keep his underlings happy, but also would be faced with how much to cooperate with the ever-increasing number of genocides under your command, or refuse to cooperate and take the in-game political penalty for angering your Nazi peers/overlords. It is entirely possible to "win" the game but then be killed as the result of a war crimes tribunal. Or you can ignore all that and live the dream of A Clean Wehrmacht. It works in Barbarossa precisely because you're not set as the architect of genocide, but the middle manager forced to work around it. There's really no ethical way to give people a "choice" to kill millions of people in a fit of racist psychosis. Lum_ fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Oct 18, 2018 |
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Oct 18, 2018 20:09
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indigi posted:yeah it's just completely glossing over British complicity in the effects (Churchill directly denied a bunch of request for food and supplies)
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Oct 18, 2018 20:19
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Strudel Man posted:I would say that glossing over the "atrocity" part of it is consistent with not including Nazi atrocities.
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Oct 18, 2018 20:36
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Oh whoops, nevermind they didn't have any boats for some reason. Better take the L then.
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Oct 18, 2018 20:42
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Making it a thing that sorta just happened makes it way worse though - it's not even ignoring it, but casting it as an accidental thing rather than a deliberate genocide. Imagine if the Holocaust was treated similarly... Fun fact: claiming the deaths of the holocaust were just the result of war torn Germany not having the resources to properly feed all of its people is actually one of the talking points of holocaust deniers. The problem with WW2 as a setting is that separated from politics, it's a very interesting time period for warfare. It's basically the last example of conventional warfare between superpowers we'll ever have, so it's the most modern example of military doctrine and technology in action at large scale. But it's also a setting where you can't really separate it from politics because the politics are what caused so many of the things that happened to happen (including the whole war itself).
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Oct 18, 2018 20:43
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give Germany a modifier called like "die neues Recht" as long as they have Hitler that gives a malus to research, recruitable pop,if possible a 5% resistance level in all core provinces, and some huge bonus to resistance growth in occupied territories
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Oct 18, 2018 20:58
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Strudel Man posted:I would say that glossing over the "atrocity" part of it is consistent with not including Nazi atrocities. the problem is that they include it, but divorce it wholly from the political and military realities of the Allies' decisions, as if it was incidental and not the result of evil calculus. it's a Fisher Price Playskool version of genocide
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Oct 18, 2018 21:08
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Raskolnikov38 posted:if possible a 5% resistance level in all core provinces Was there internal resistance in germany during ww2? My knowledge of ww2 is pretty lacking
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Oct 18, 2018 21:10
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Senor Dog posted:Was there internal resistance in germany during ww2? My knowledge of ww2 is pretty lacking there was the white rose and the krensau circle but I was aiming more to model the suffering of living under fascism
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Oct 18, 2018 21:12
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Raskolnikov38 posted:there was the white rose and the krensau circle but I was aiming more to model the suffering of living under fascism Actually the nazis very conspicuously tried to avoid any reduction in German living standards to further the war effort during the war, to a large part accomplished by looting the occupied countries and employing slave labor. They also in theory maintained an expansive welfare state, so long as you were "Aryan", though many of the measures connected through this were never properly enacted mostly due to the war. It might be interesting (if a bit hosed up) if there was some way to force or "encourage" the Germans to employ the harshest occupation policies in order to keep their own country afloat, as the systematic looting of occupied countries (both in Western and Eastern Europe, though a lot more violent in Eastern Europe and with the aim of emptying the countries for German colonization) was essential to the German war effort and economy. Until the strategic bombing campaign really picked up towards the end of 1943, the ordinary German probably was much less materially affected by the war than ordinary British people (and Soviet people goes without saying). Most Germans either supported Hitler or quietly acquiesced. The only truly substantive German resistance to the Nazis was from the military establishment, and that was really born out of aristocratic disdain for those brutish upstarts than anything else, the fact that Hitler and many other Nazis despite the aristocrats as a class also probably played a part. Either way even that resistance only really began midlly manifesting itself once things weren't going that well any more (and by that time, most of the military, particularly non-aristocratic and younger soldiers and officers were firm supporters of Hitler). ulmont posted:You were asked questions at startup to verify that you were an adult. That's a lot of questions. Woudl it ask all of them? This one is a bit strange or misleading. quote:In the Spanish Civil War, the Fascists defeated the With Libertarians being the correct answer given. Which is technically correct as that was what the Anarcists at the time often called themselves, but also Republicans would be correct, I would say more correct as the Anarchists weren't the only faction on the Republican side during the Civil War.
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Oct 18, 2018 22:35
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Lum_ posted:It works in Barbarossa precisely because you're not set as the architect of genocide, but the middle manager forced to work around it. There's really no ethical way to give people a "choice" to kill millions of people in a fit of racist psychosis. HOI4 could do something similar in that being fascist is the only decision or trigger. It already has a similar model in Carol II's carousing, for example. HOI already moved away from "playing as Hitler" in 4; there's no reason you couldn't adopt even more of a EU/CK-style angle of "Hitler does things whether you like it or not."
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Oct 18, 2018 22:52
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Randarkman posted:Actually the nazis very conspicuously tried to avoid any reduction in German living standards to further the war effort during the war, to a large part accomplished by looting the occupied countries and employing slave labor. They also in theory maintained an expansive welfare state, so long as you were "Aryan", though many of the measures connected through this were never properly enacted mostly due to the war. It might be interesting (if a bit hosed up) if there was some way to force or "encourage" the Germans to employ the harshest occupation policies in order to keep their own country afloat, as the systematic looting of occupied countries (both in Western and Eastern Europe, though a lot more violent in Eastern Europe and with the aim of emptying the countries for German colonization) was essential to the German war effort and economy. my idea was more of a roundabout way to represent the suffering of the ethnic groups not promoted under fascism
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Oct 18, 2018 23:11
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Koramei posted:I don't think they should put in the holocaust, I think they shouldn't have put in the allied atrocities in the first place. "It's okay because we don't model it affecting civilians" seems like an incredibly artificial justification considering we all know the implications behind what's going on. Quoting this because this page needs it and this whole discussion should have ended with the post I'm quoting.
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Oct 19, 2018 00:13
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ExtraNoise posted:Quoting this because this page needs it and this whole discussion should have ended with the post I'm quoting. Well I mean they didn’t really put in allied atrocities as the discussion showed so it’s a bad post to end a discussion as it’s factually wrong.
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Oct 19, 2018 00:30
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Given that they whitewashed the atrocities they DID include, I'm not sure I actually want to see their take on including the holocaust.CharlestheHammer posted:Well I mean they didn’t really put in allied atrocities as the discussion showed so it’s a bad post to end a discussion as it’s factually wrong. They include the great purge... in the form of "stalin did nothing wrong." They include the bengal famine but completely remove the deliberate choice context.
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Oct 19, 2018 00:49
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I think is a case of non-facists being more willing to accept and discuss allied atrocities while at the same not wanting to give recognition or acknowledgement to the facists and their deeds. The problem is that contemporary facists think they did nothing wrong and argue in bad faith so this kinda fuels their narrative; Popper's Paradox, etc. I would go with the Mel Brooks route of presenting the facists as barely competent but dangerous clowns that ruined their countries but I don't think that would mix well in a wargame when all the major nations need to be equally playable/engaging/fun instead of a Grand Strategy game were going literally full nazi can be modeled as a "yeah, this is a bad choice"
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Oct 19, 2018 01:21
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Randarkman posted:That's a lot of questions. Woudl it ask all of them? It would pick one at random on startup.
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Oct 19, 2018 04:17
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Well I think Paradox should settle this issue by getting rid of all atrocities and making it a game purely about military strategy. But then they should make another separate game that's only about atrocities. It would be great!
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Oct 19, 2018 04:22
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Ivan Shitskin posted:But then they should make another separate game that's only about atrocities. It would be great! It could be a digital card game like War but where each card represents a historical atrocity more worse than the last!
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Oct 19, 2018 17:57
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ExtraNoise posted:It could be a digital card game like War but where each card represents a historical atrocity more worse than the last! My rwandan genocide beats your milosevic? That kind of war?
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Oct 19, 2018 19:28
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Then you get deeply conflicted Nazis as they think the holocaust is the best and should be a powerful card but it also didn’t happen.
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Oct 19, 2018 20:16
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Stalin wasn't all bad, in the sense that at least most of his fellow criminals eventually got their turn and ended up in the gulags and/or mass graves themselves. Imagine being a non-Russian Stalinist though, that's a level of stupidity almost on par with being a Jewish Nazi. A foreign communist living in the 1930's Soviet Union had maybe a 2% chance of surviving the purges unscathed and a 0% chance of not living in constant terror.
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Oct 19, 2018 20:41
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One day Paradox titles will enable us to enact every imaginable depravity. From crucifixions along the Appian Way (-5% revolt risk) to planet killers (+150 minerals).
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Oct 19, 2018 21:46
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Phlegmish posted:Stalin wasn't all bad, in the sense that at least most of his fellow criminals eventually got their turn and ended up in the gulags and/or mass graves themselves. As bad as it is now to look back at the failings of history I can only imagine how poo poo it was to be someone who lived through the Russian Revolution and then got to see it quickly turn into a slightly different type of autocracy
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Oct 19, 2018 21:47
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