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HEY GUNS posted:the relationship between those two factors is a lot murkier than it seems
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Oct 18, 2018 19:21
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Cessna posted:I gotta tell you, I'm just sick and tired of Nazi poo poo these days. Thats...ok? Don't buy the game I guess? There's a lot of latitude between "(media product) about nazi germany" and "endorsing nazi policy and actions". A lot of different media products have walked that line very well over the years. I've not seen anything from this particular game that makes me think it will excuse war crimes or offer apologia for nazism. I think a lot of the hand wringing in this thread is anticipatory of some uncouth reaction from modern day e-nazis. Allow me to remove any lingering doubts anyone has: they'll love the elements of the game that align with their world view, and they'll howl about any elements of the game that do not. That said, the feelings and actions of modern nazis should absolutely not influence an otherwise worthwhile piece of art or business venture, and shaming a company or artist because nazis might like their product is irritatingly reactionary. Note: this is all speaking generically, if the game (which I'm not going to buy either way because I hate shooty games) turns out to be a celebration of nazism I'll enjoy the publisher's abrupt downfall as much or more than anyone.
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Oct 18, 2018 19:24
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MikeCrotch posted:It's more "do you trust the triple-A games industry to make a game about WWII Germans that doesn't either glorify war crimes or perpetrate the Clean Wehrmacht myth" Here is a list of triple-AAA video games titles that included playable WWII Germans in them: Battlefield 1942 BF1943 Medal of Honor About a dozen MoH sequels Day of Defeat Call of Duty About a dozen CoD sequels Day of Defeat World War 2 Online That's just first-person shooters. Even if we include sims (SWOTL, World of Tanks, World of Warships), RTS games (Company of Heroes), tactics games (Blitzkrieg, Panzer Tactics), turn-based strategy (Panzer General, Hearts of Iron) and other genres that reduce the individual soldier to a higher or lower level of abstraction, this is a *lot* of triple-AAA titles. Which of these have either glorified war crimes or perpetuated the clean wehrmacht myth? quote:This is not true in the slightest, the far-right always gains supporters in times of economic distress. What economic distress are you talking about?
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Oct 18, 2018 19:25
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I think I'd appreciate it if the caution some of us in this thread have expressed at this thing is not just casually dismissed as 'handwringing'. Edit: quote:Which of these have either glorified war crimes or perpetuated the clean wehrmacht myth? Fangz fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Oct 18, 2018 |
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Oct 18, 2018 19:26
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Halloween Jack posted:These "race, not economic anxiety" articles always carefully scrub the fact that turnout is in the toilet and poor people, in particular, don't vote. These news outlets need to do this because they were the same ones angsting over the White Working Class as a political monolith for months.
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Oct 18, 2018 19:27
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Phanatic posted:Battlefield 1942 This list cracked me up. Call of Day of Honor Defeat Battlefield Duty II Online BUY IT TODAY
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Oct 18, 2018 19:28
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Phanatic posted:Here is a list of triple-AAA video games titles that included playable WWII Germans in them: There is a big difference between multiplayer only gameplay (most of that list) and those with a single player German narrative campaign, dude. Also Day of Defeat is apparently so good you included it twice.
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Oct 18, 2018 19:28
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Phanatic posted:Here is a list of triple-AAA video games titles that included playable WWII Germans in them: And how many of these had a German single-player campaign with storyline elements? MikeCrotch posted:It's more "do you trust the triple-A games industry to make a game about WWII Germans that doesn't either glorify war crimes or perpetrate the Clean Wehrmacht myth" Also this. Present day "gamer culture" is a cancerous cesspool and the realistic/historical FPS crowd is even worse. It'd be pretty drat stupid to think the industry won't eventually give them what they clamor for (that is, glorious Kruppstahl panzerkampf vs. perfidious asiatic red hordes).
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Oct 18, 2018 19:31
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HEY GUNS posted:the poor vote dem. the people who call themselves the "white working class" make a lot of money, comparatively. Yeah um my ex wife's extended family for example were both bona fide poor and Republican and racist as gently caress. It might be nice to believe that poor people don't vote Republican (or hold Nazi adjacent opinions about things such as race) but it isn't actually true.
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Oct 18, 2018 19:32
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bewbies posted:I find the pearl clutching about Wehrmacht video game characters to be very confusing and logically inconsistent. Do people here protest against genocide simulators like Europa Universalis or Victoria?
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Oct 18, 2018 19:41
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feedmegin posted:There is a big difference between multiplayer only gameplay (most of that list) and those with a single player German narrative campaign, dude. WW2 multiplayer shooters are essentially e-reenactment including the weird nazi dude that makes everyone uncomfortable. Very few FPS games have a Nazi Germany themed campaign but quite a few older post hex RTS games from the late nineties to the middle of the last decade do.
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Oct 18, 2018 19:41
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World of Tanks and War Thunder players whine nonstop about German tanks not being the invincible death machines they want them to be, so the best case scenario would be to make the Tiger terrible. Bonus points for having it break down in the opening cutscene and then the crew gets pressed into fighting as infantry.
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Oct 18, 2018 19:43
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Ensign Expendable posted:World of Tanks and War Thunder players whine nonstop about German tanks not being the invincible death machines they want them to be, so the best case scenario would be to make the Tiger terrible. Bonus points for having it break down in the opening cutscene and then the crew gets pressed into fighting as infantry. It'd be a hilarious move if for the first ten minutes after build up the tank just breaks down and the SS then get made at you for it and hunt the player for the rest of the campaign.
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Oct 18, 2018 19:45
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I mean the way I would do it would be to have the tiger commander guy recount all those stories about killing hundreds of shermans, and have the main character slowly realise he's making all that poo poo up.
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Oct 18, 2018 19:48
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ChubbyChecker posted:Do people here protest against genocide simulators like Europa Universalis or Victoria? If the current political climate saw a drastic increase in the number of angry young men marching in the streets wearing pith helmets and calling for a bloody return of the Raj, you're drat right I'd be angry. But that's not what's happening, so...
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Oct 18, 2018 19:49
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feedmegin posted:There is a big difference between multiplayer only gameplay (most of that list) and those with a single player German narrative campaign, dude. This is special pleading. Panzer General is a single-player game with the narrative that you are playing as an officer in command of the Nazi state’s army units, trying to achieve victory in battle against the Allies. Hell, Axis and Allies does that. Is it okay because the narrative is superficial?
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Oct 18, 2018 19:50
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SeanBeansShako posted:It'd be a hilarious move if for the first ten minutes after build up the tank just breaks down and the SS then get made at you for it and hunt the player for the rest of the campaign. Executed by Feldjagers after a drumhead trial. Press "F" to pay respects.
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Oct 18, 2018 19:50
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I feel like we really need a Historical Media/Pop Culture discussion thread now.
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Oct 18, 2018 19:50
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SeanBeansShako posted:I feel like we really need a Historical Media/Pop Culture discussion thread now. Aren't there like a dozen different forums and sub-forums for video games on this site?
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Oct 18, 2018 19:52
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Phanatic posted:This is special pleading. Panzer General is a single-player game with the narrative that you are playing as an officer in command of the Nazi state’s army units, trying to achieve victory in battle against the Allies. Hell, Axis and Allies does that. Is it okay because the narrative is superficial? Yes. Also because those games are pretty niche, appeal to an older crowd, and from a genre point of view are less capable of being persuasive and engaging.
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Oct 18, 2018 19:52
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What I'm saying is that gamers should go to those forums to discuss their video games.
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Oct 18, 2018 19:54
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Phanatic posted:This is special pleading. Panzer General is a single-player game with the narrative that you are playing as an officer in command of the Nazi state’s army units, trying to achieve victory in battle against the Allies. Hell, Axis and Allies does that. Is it okay because the narrative is superficial? Yes, they're not personal stories about war criminals they're abstract counter-pushing, of course they have less impact on what people think. Also, a game that's practically a household name in the US which is going to be played by millions and millions of people all around the planet has slightly more impact and cultural relevance than some groggy wargame (or literal boardgame in the case of A&A) that has maybe 1% of the audience that Battlefield does. Crazycryodude fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Oct 18, 2018 |
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Oct 18, 2018 19:55
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ChubbyChecker posted:Aren't there like a dozen different forums and sub-forums for video games on this site? Considering games are only a tiny bit of how history can be projected and explored via other mediums perhaps, but a thread that focuses on things like movies, books, music and even plays would be drat interesting. Plus we had this discussion thirty pages back in this thread.
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Oct 18, 2018 19:55
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I think we can all agree that the German campaign in Battlefield 5 would be infinitely better if it featured a tank destroyer instead of a Tiger.
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Oct 18, 2018 19:58
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SeanBeansShako posted:Considering games are only a tiny bit of how history can be projected and explored via other mediums perhaps, but a thread that focuses on things like movies, books, music and even plays would be drat interesting. And will have it again the next time some retard starts posting about video games in this thread. Ban video games from this thread. Hell, in real life too.
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Oct 18, 2018 19:58
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Coldwar timewarp posted:Perhaps if you read and weren’t a snarky moron, you would have noticed I said “Germans” and “Battlefield 1”. That was in reference to it being weird that there weren’t Germans in BF1 war stories. Which by any metric should be a playable group, considering a belligerent power bent on territorial conquest is playable, in the form of Italy. That describes every major combatant if we're being honest. PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Oct 18, 2018 |
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Oct 18, 2018 19:58
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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ChubbyChecker posted:Do people here protest against genocide simulators like Europa Universalis or Victoria? No. People also don't seem to care much about games that present WWII Germany in a strategic or tactical capacity, nor are they particularly concerned that games featuring Red Army soldiers might be an endorsement of Stalinism or an attempt to whitewash Red Army war crimes. I mean, I get why so many of you are hypervigilant about nazi stuff but the logic there seems to be applied in a wildly inconsistent way. Ensign Expendable posted:World of Tanks and War Thunder players whine nonstop about German tanks not being the invincible death machines they want them to be, so the best case scenario would be to make the Tiger terrible. Bonus points for having it break down in the opening cutscene and then the crew gets pressed into fighting as infantry. I remember some of the first over the top internet arguments I ever saw were on the "Air Warrior" boards back in the mid 90s that featured a pro-German mafia of sorts howling -- and eventually threatening to boycott -- because the 109 and 190 were insufficiently dominant against pitiful allied aircraft. Ironically enough the P-51 has its own mafia that seems to follow it around from game to game. bewbies fucked around with this message at 20:04 on Oct 18, 2018 |
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Oct 18, 2018 20:00
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ChubbyChecker posted:And will have it again the next time some retard starts posting about video games in this thread. Ban video games from this thread. Hell, in real life too. Maybe but with a thread we can steer them towards it instead of doing this same old song dance every time a Triple A video game does a world war.
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Oct 18, 2018 20:00
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Phanatic posted:This is special pleading. Panzer General is a single-player game with the narrative that you are playing as an officer in command of the Nazi state’s army units, trying to achieve victory in battle against the Allies. Hell, Axis and Allies does that. Is it okay because the narrative is superficial?
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Oct 18, 2018 20:01
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bewbies posted:I mean, I get why so many of you are hypervigilant about nazi stuff but the logic there seems to be applied in a wildly inconsistent way. Describe for me, if you would, a completely logical framework whereby pro-Nazi media is rejected.
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Oct 18, 2018 20:03
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Oct 18, 2018 20:04
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SeanBeansShako posted:Maybe but with a thread we can steer them towards it instead of doing this same old song dance every time a Triple A video game does a world war. It's not just video games. Look, if my posts about how I dislike the increasing social acceptance of the far right are out of place in a military history thread, I apologize. But a lot of military history - especially that of WWII - revolves around that sort of thing. You can't talk about the biggest war in history without bumping into Nazis at some point. Video games based on these events are going to have to address these issues somehow. The fact is that most people get their history exposure through movies, TV, and video games as opposed to academic texts, so here we are. If it's the video games that are a problem, well, maybe I can talk about how Nazi fabric production and tailoring is a good example for how crappy their whole system was...
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Oct 18, 2018 20:11
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Cessna posted:If the current political climate saw a drastic increase in the number of angry young men marching in the streets wearing pith helmets and calling for a bloody return of the Raj, you're drat right I'd be angry. To be fair, there were serious discussions among the Tory brexiteer crowd about Brexit being an opportunity for 'Empire 2.0'.
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Oct 18, 2018 20:13
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Cessna posted:Describe for me, if you would, a completely logical framework whereby pro-Nazi media is rejected. I read this several times and couldn't figure out exactly what you're asking...could you rephrase?
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Oct 18, 2018 20:14
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PittTheElder posted:That describes every major combatant if we're being honest. Not the US! Maybe Britain, but I’m sure they were happy to have more colonies. It wasn’t their war aim though. If it was it was really not worth it. Coldwar timewarp fucked around with this message at 20:18 on Oct 18, 2018 |
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Oct 18, 2018 20:15
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Coldwar timewarp posted:Not the US! Maybe Britain, but I’m sure they were happy to have more colonies. It wasn’t their was aim though. If it was it was really not worth it. IIRC, one of Britain's major motivations for WWI was that the High Seas Fleet posed a potential threat to British naval dominance, and thus jeopardized Britain's colonial empire. The US had little territorial interest, but it is really a stretch to call the US a "Major Combatant" in WW1.
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Oct 18, 2018 20:20
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bewbies posted:I read this several times and couldn't figure out exactly what you're asking...could you rephrase? Sure! You said "I get why so many of you are hypervigilant about nazi stuff but the logic there seems to be applied in a wildly inconsistent way." What would it take to be logically consistent to you? I think my logic is pretty straightforward: gently caress Nazis. They want to degrade, hurt, and murder innocent people, so I don't want them or their viewpoints to be accepted. I don't like entertainment media that - even inadvertently, even through ignorance - makes their views more mainstream or commonplace.
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Oct 18, 2018 20:21
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Gnoman posted:IIRC, one of Britain's major motivations for WWI was that the High Seas Fleet posed a potential threat to British naval dominance, and thus jeopardized Britain's colonial empire. Defending the empire is not the same as seeking territorial gains. I think you have to count the US as their potential in addition to their contribution. With US troops arriving at eventually 10000 per day and Germany running low on men, the fact of the shifting balance of power can’t be underestimated. They had 2 million men in France by the time of the Armistice. The Kaiserschlacht needed to be launched as soon as possible, and the arrival of Americans was one of the reasons.
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Oct 18, 2018 20:30
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Ensign Expendable posted:World of Tanks and War Thunder players whine nonstop about German tanks not being the invincible death machines they want them to be, so the best case scenario would be to make the Tiger terrible. Bonus points for having it break down in the opening cutscene and then the crew gets pressed into fighting as infantry. Well to be honest, War Thunder is a total Russian cheer fest. They reduced the armour on the Panzers in class 5 and 6 down so low it was silly. There were times playing you watched a Tiger I get holed thru the front mantlet by a T-50. Uh... no. Not even with the most advanced Soviet ammo could that happen even at a range of 100 meters... But as a counterpoint, the Panzer fanbois are oft out of control. Just look at the comments in the Fury Tiger vs. Sheman clip on YouTube. The Tiger fan club is totally out of clue.
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Oct 18, 2018 20:30
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Cessna posted:Sure! Your concern is that featuring Wehrmacht characters in video games normalizes nazism, or constitutes apologism for nazis, or whitewashes wehrmacht war crimes, correct? On the previous page you endorsed a game scenario that featured a cool red army person (which I agree would be a cool game). Why does that video game scenario elicit excitement from you, instead of concern about normalizing stalinism or Soviet communism, or whitewashing red army war crimes? If the answer is "gently caress nazis" that's fine, but that isn't logically consistent.
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Oct 18, 2018 20:34
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