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WoodrowSkillson posted:Is there detail on this? It's also possible that Turkey planted the story but on balance it's probably true.
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Oct 18, 2018 15:36
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:The problem is they were all following orders. Killing people who kill on your orders because they followed orders is a bad look if you want people to kill on your orders again. "So where are all the bodies from the plane crash?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk-VK4ZRmjs&t=197s
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Oct 18, 2018 15:44
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:The problem is they were all following orders. Killing people who kill on your orders because they followed orders is a bad look if you want people to kill on your orders again. That's true, but the crown prince is still going to do anything he can to avoid personal responsibility at this point. If that means throwing useful people under a bus (literally or otherwise), so be it. That said, this particular story is extremely thinly sourced so far.
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Oct 18, 2018 15:46
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:The problem is they were all following orders. Killing people who kill on your orders because they followed orders is a bad look if you want people to kill on your orders again. In a situations where there is a massive power difference between those giving orders and those obeying them, such as between MbS and the 15 assassins or the POTUS and SEAL Team 6, it is less about the orders being followed due to willful obedience as opposed to fear. In MbS's case he can always coerce more people to do his dirty work by threatening their families if they don't comply. In the POTUS's case a dishonorable discharge will severely limit future job prospects and bring extreme shame on the family.
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Oct 18, 2018 17:14
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qkkl posted:In a situations where there is a massive power difference between those giving orders and those obeying them, such as between MbS and the 15 assassins or the POTUS and SEAL Team 6, it is less about the orders being followed due to willful obedience as opposed to fear. You're implying special forces aren't selected for their ability to rationalize war crimes.
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Oct 18, 2018 17:22
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qkkl posted:In a situations where there is a massive power difference between those giving orders and those obeying them, such as between MbS and the 15 assassins or the POTUS and SEAL Team 6, it is less about the orders being followed due to willful obedience as opposed to fear. coerced people result in results like this. you can only coast on that for so long
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Oct 18, 2018 17:25
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Conspiratiorist posted:You're implying special forces aren't selected for their ability to rationalize war crimes. Finding people who can rationalize war crimes is easy because most people would kill in a "kill or be killed" situation. I have my doubts that a doctor who's taken the Hippocratic oath would voluntarily dismember someone who they just saw was murdered.
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Oct 18, 2018 17:47
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Sen. Graham is now calling for MBS's replacement. What are MBS's power base? I mean before him the Kingship in SA depended on some sort of consent/pay off structure towards other royals right? I'm trying to remember the stuff I read about his ascent, but I think it hinged alot on the troops in the Royal Guard while sidelining the Interior Ministry. I mean, Prince Bandar "bush's best friend" is still around qkkl posted:Finding people who can rationalize war crimes is easy because most people would kill in a "kill or be killed" situation. I have my doubts that a doctor who's taken the Hippocratic oath would voluntarily dismember someone who they just saw was murdered. pretty sure this is not true and most people have to be trained to kill other people.
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Oct 18, 2018 18:02
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This seems like a huge loving deal, but I wonder if the WH will try to downplay it. Their responses to past Taliban attacks have shown that they seem desperate to avoid getting more directly involved in Afghanistan. FourLeaf fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Oct 18, 2018 |
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Oct 18, 2018 19:07
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The US is pulling out of the Saudi summit "davos in the desert", following other countries. Maybe they got the recording from the Turks. e: link https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-45904904
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Oct 18, 2018 19:30
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Mozi posted:OK, what's your previous example of them killing a US resident in their embassy? there is that time we decided to sign off on killing half of Yemen on grounds it might make them less pissy we signed a deal with Iran real knee-slapper, that one
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Oct 18, 2018 19:30
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Still looking for that example, thanks.
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Oct 18, 2018 19:32
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Buckhead posted:Won't this end with some internal Saudi investigation that points the finger at some mid-level intelligence officer who set this up on his own with consulting the chain of command? We got our guy! Although 3 stars may be a little more than mid-level.
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Oct 18, 2018 21:45
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When I said 'Will no one rid me of this meddlesome journalist' I didn't actually mean someone should rid me of this meddlesome journalist
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Oct 18, 2018 21:53
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Step 1 to a very bad ending. This signals that a death spiral is about to occur next we may see some afghanis in wealthy positions exiting the country , and the government purging minority sects turning even more authoritarian rapidly.
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Oct 18, 2018 22:32
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LeoMarr posted:Step 1 to a very bad ending. This signals that a death spiral is about to occur next we may see some afghanis in wealthy positions exiting the country , and the government purging minority sects turning even more authoritarian rapidly. High tier folks have been targetted for a while, and the constant threat of Taliban murder pretty much scared off most foreigners not on a base years ago. This boat has been sinking for awhile.
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Oct 18, 2018 22:45
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Shageletic posted:High tier folks have been targetted for a while, and the constant threat of Taliban murder pretty much scared off most foreigners not on a base years ago. Definitely. But now were really at the end. Everyones got bodyguards now. So throughout the year we went from checkpoint disguise ambushes to government bodyguards are taliban so even the president isnt safe thats a very different world to live in
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Oct 18, 2018 22:50
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LeoMarr posted:Definitely. But now were really at the end. Everyones got bodyguards now. So throughout the year we went from checkpoint disguise ambushes to government bodyguards are taliban so even the president isnt safe thats a very different world to live in A good friend of me who was out there for years came back a couple of years ago, the most optimistic and hard working person you could ever meet. And he's glad that he made it out alive. And he worked in an NGO.
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Oct 18, 2018 22:55
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Buckhead posted:We got our guy! Although 3 stars may be a little more than mid-level. Phew, glad there was a reasonable explanation for this mess. You always have those bad apples, but you can't blame him for being overzealous to please mbs. v Every morning I'm surprised he hasn't died from not knowing how to breath he's so loving stupid guidoanselmi fucked around with this message at 02:07 on Oct 19, 2018 |
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Oct 19, 2018 00:59
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https://twitter.com/camanpour/status/1052980898604273669
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Oct 19, 2018 01:22
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I don't think people were wrong to weigh the pros and cons, because the status quo was really loving bad and our ability to force an ideal outcome basically didn't exist, but fawning over him (as Friedman is pretending he didn't) and American politicans giving him a blank check because of the supposed upside (which Friedman now says was bad) genuinely did make it more likely that MBS would overreach, because he thought he had the stupid Americans right in his pocket. I mean anyone who thought he was going to be a reformer leading to a more free society in Saudi Arabia beyond some Western friendly optics was a loving joke, and Friedman still seems to believe in the kind of soft power that was supposed to make China democratic after we started trading with them, but cutting back on exporting terrorism is still a big pro even without domestic reform--it just doesn't work when MBS decides murdering an American journalist is also totally fine.
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Oct 19, 2018 01:47
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Well! Turns out Saudi Arabia has always been a friend of the YPG! https://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2018/10/pompeo-meets-erdogan-cavusoglu-khashoggi-murder.html
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Oct 19, 2018 01:56
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Throatwarbler posted:Well! Turns out Saudi Arabia has always been a friend of the YPG! Ah, so Turkey hates the KSA for one of the vanishingly rare not awful things they did with their money.
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Oct 19, 2018 01:59
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Sinteres posted:That's true, but the crown prince is still going to do anything he can to avoid personal responsibility at this point. If that means throwing useful people under a bus (literally or otherwise), so be it. That said, this particular story is extremely thinly sourced so far. It seems like a really bad idea to throw high ranking generals under the bus for following direct orders (likely). I'm sure that will turn out well for MBS though.
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Oct 19, 2018 05:10
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My cynical guess is that it won't be a general, those guys are generally half royalty or there because of patronage networks in the first place. I'm thinking they'll throw say... a colonel under the bus. One who worked his way up from being a commoner.
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Oct 19, 2018 06:15
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The King will throw himself under the bus to let MbS take the throne.
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Oct 19, 2018 06:19
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Scaramouche posted:My cynical guess is that it won't be a general, those guys are generally half royalty or there because of patronage networks in the first place. I'm thinking they'll throw say... a colonel under the bus. One who worked his way up from being a commoner. Even so, it doesn't seem like a good long term move to do that to people following orders (again, presumably)
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Oct 19, 2018 06:19
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Spergin Morlock posted:Even so, it doesn't seem like a good long term move to do that to people following orders (again, presumably) I mean, they should be punish for butchering the job and let Turkey recorded the whole thing.
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Oct 19, 2018 06:28
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Borzou is always great but he's really been on point through this whole process. The latest from him introduces the possibility of Turkish police finding the body. https://mobile.twitter.com/borzou/status/1052923709474914304 He's also got an article out now that will either give you some background or tie up some loose ends depending on how closely you've followed the story. A lot has been made of Khashoggi being a journalist who was critical of MbS, but he's not exactly an activist. He advocated for reform, not for revolution, he comes from an affluent family in Saudi Arabia, and he was in the government himself for a time. Borzou makes the case that this wasn't a matter of silencing a message. It was more rooted in internal rivalries in the kingdom. Khashoggi was not in MbS' corner in the current power struggle, and he found himself vulnerable. Not a good combo. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...t.co/9IsHHoJXGP
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Oct 19, 2018 06:37
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tino posted:I mean, they should be punish for butchering the job and let Turkey recorded the whole thing. I wouldn't be sad if all 15 identified individuals got theirs, tbh.
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Oct 19, 2018 06:37
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Well MBS had Khashoggi re-formed quite a bit, soo
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Oct 19, 2018 07:11
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Yeah the Yemen war is a "downside", thank you Tom, hope you get a "minor disease" like Ebola or the Marburg virus. 
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Oct 19, 2018 13:40
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Leprosy, to match his morals.
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Oct 19, 2018 13:42
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Toplowtech posted:Yeah the Yemen war is a "downside", thank you Tom, hope you get a "minor disease" like Ebola or the Marburg virus. Yeah, there is a bizarre double standard where something like the Yemen War is so downplayed compared to other regional conflicts. There is some type of f'ed up Beltway logic that allowing women in movie theatres can some wiped out the sins of starving millions of Yemeni. It is predictable that Friedman would say this but you also see in the US media at large. (Also, it is quite turn around on MbS considering the poo poo he has been pulling for years and the media has largely condoned.)
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Oct 19, 2018 13:43
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"There are upsides and there are downsides and I just hoped the upsides were more than the downsides and sometimes you try to make the downsides smaller and the upsides larger, and I argued we'd get more upsides than downsides but the downsides and the upsides are are two sides of the same issue and these sides--" -A Serious Writer
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Oct 19, 2018 13:48
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Ardennes posted:Yeah, there is a bizarre double standard where something like the Yemen War is so downplayed compared to other regional conflicts. There is some type of f'ed up Beltway logic that allowing women in movie theatres can some wiped out the sins of starving millions of Yemeni. It is predictable that Friedman would say this but you also see in the US media at large. Bipartisan support from Obama and Trump means it's hard to write a domestic political story blaming someone, which means US media have no interest in covering it. Of course the fact that it's our putative allies doing the war crimes also gives them incentives to ignore it--just look at how Turkey's various campaigns of ethnic cleansing against Kurdish people have been swept under the rug for decades. This is also true for why nobody in particular is getting blamed for losing Afghanistan. It's just going to be a can that gets kicked down the road until nobody remembers there was a war we lost anymore. Dr Kool-AIDS fucked around with this message at 14:08 on Oct 19, 2018 |
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Oct 19, 2018 13:53
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Sinteres posted:This is also true for why nobody in particular is getting blamed for losing Afghanistan. It's just going to be a can that gets kicked down the road until nobody remembers there was a war we lost anymore.
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Oct 19, 2018 14:42
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I’d somehow missed this video. https://twitter.com/shane_bauer/status/1053007171481362432?s=21
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Oct 19, 2018 14:56
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Just pathetic... Thread: https://twitter.com/joshrogin/status/1053408289504063488
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Oct 20, 2018 00:22
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Best part is the King put MBS in charge of investigating the murder. The one that he ordered.
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Oct 20, 2018 00:27
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