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Rime posted:Fly all you want, peeps, because worthless lives in the tropics are emitting more carbon than the entire EU, purely through their rampant and unstoppable deforestation efforts. So in this situation the real crime is reproduction?
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Oct 19, 2018 21:59
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Rime posted:Fly all you want, peeps, because worthless lives in the tropics are emitting more carbon than the entire EU, purely through their rampant and unstoppable deforestation efforts.  big enough for this, or you.
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Oct 19, 2018 22:48
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the real concern is that whatever change occurs will be insufficiently radical and the institutions and people who benefited from contributing the most will be mostly unaffected
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Oct 20, 2018 00:13
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StabbinHobo posted:two people trying to make poo poo up faster than the other guy. Slow your roll Savonarola, some vanities are fireproof: https://jalopnik.com/londons-heathrow-airport-sometimes-hosts-ghost-flights-1827724434
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Oct 20, 2018 06:36
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Rime posted:Fly all you want, peeps, because worthless lives in the tropics are emitting more carbon than the entire EU, purely through their rampant and unstoppable deforestation efforts. Ironic racism is still racism
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Oct 20, 2018 14:55
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Hoo boy, I guess you all can casually discuss this poo poo when it's abstracted, but throw what you're actually saying back in your face and you rush off to the report function like a child told they can't have a candy. Truly, no greater crime than hurting the sensibilities of privileged westerners. Y'all are fuckin' hypocrites, savvy? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 20, 2018 15:55
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Things that were being discussed: Voluntarily stopping flying Banning flying gently caress it, fly till catastrophe makes flying impossible Things that were not being discussed: Murdering poors so we can keep flying You disgusting disaster fetishist
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Oct 20, 2018 16:41
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Rime posted:Hoo boy, I guess you all can casually discuss this poo poo when it's abstracted, but throw what you're actually saying back in your face and you rush off to the report function like a child told they can't have a candy. The irony is that the people you're talking about will suffer the worst effects of climate change - but the the assholes who reported you still insist on the fable of the 'noble savage' narrative, where people in poverty couldn't possibly be interested in corrupt and immoral short-term gain. They're blind to the fact they are essentially subscribing to Kipling's 'White Man's Burden', with an acceptable 21st century spin. Y'all are worthless poseurs to a man.
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Oct 20, 2018 16:58
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Pudding Space posted:The irony is that the people you're talking about will suffer the worst effects of climate change - but the the assholes who reported you still insist on the fable of the 'noble savage' narrative, where people in poverty couldn't possibly be interested in corrupt and immoral short-term gain. They're blind to the fact they are essentially subscribing to Kipling's 'White Man's Burden', with an acceptable 21st century spin. Y'all are worthless poseurs to a man. I thought it was because he called their lives worthless
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Oct 20, 2018 16:59
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Pudding Space posted:The irony is that the people you're talking about will suffer the worst effects of climate change - but the the assholes who reported you still insist on the fable of the 'noble savage' narrative, where people in poverty couldn't possibly be interested in corrupt and immoral short-term gain. They're blind to the fact they are essentially subscribing to Kipling's 'White Man's Burden', with an acceptable 21st century spin. Y'all are worthless poseurs to a man. I’m still gonna blame first world capitalists for driving the demand of soy, palm oil and shrimp, and for murdering the people who try to defend the forests.
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Oct 20, 2018 17:19
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Rime posted:Hoo boy, I guess you all can casually discuss this poo poo when it's abstracted, but throw what you're actually saying back in your face and you rush off to the report function like a child told they can't have a candy. learn n grow from your mistakes instead of doubling down and throwing a tantrum.
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Oct 20, 2018 17:26
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Nobody has ever said third worlders are angels or whatever but in terms of sheer per capita unsustainable consumption wealthy first world citizens are clearly to blame by a wide margin.
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Oct 20, 2018 18:37
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Flowers For Algeria posted:I’m still gonna blame first world capitalists for driving the demand of soy, palm oil and shrimp, and for murdering the people who try to defend the forests. Definitely not you, though. You're making a difference!
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Oct 20, 2018 19:33
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Gum posted:I thought it was because he called their lives worthless Pretty much why I called him out. Sure these folks are adding to global warming on a level comparable to the whole EU, but good god, don't call people in the tropics worthless. The news sucks, and is awful and underlines the issue with systemic problems over individual actions/guilt, and I agree with all that, but gently caress off with calling people worthless. How are u posted:Definitely not you, though. You're making a difference! Hey, I planned my and my partner's living situation around not using a car. It's doable, even in Dallas Tx. Lead by example, even if it's nothing more than shifting the narrative a tiny tiny bit.
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Oct 20, 2018 19:38
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Pudding Space posted:The irony is that the people you're talking about will suffer the worst effects of climate change - but the the assholes who reported you still insist on the fable of the 'noble savage' narrative, where people in poverty couldn't possibly be interested in corrupt and immoral short-term gain. They're blind to the fact they are essentially subscribing to Kipling's 'White Man's Burden', with an acceptable 21st century spin. Y'all are worthless poseurs to a man. Wealthy elites in third world countries are little different from wealthy elites in first world countries. Humanity is fundamentally evil. People everywhere are assholes. These are somehow unique insights? Get it straight: systemic oppression of developing countries exists at the international level, and while it's undeniable people in poorer countries have their share of responsibility in getting their poo poo straightened out internally, the citizens of wealthier countries have a moral duty to hold their own governments and corporations accountable for this exploitation. That's the crux of it. Like other forms of exploitation, Climate Change is fundamentally a problem caused by abstracting and offloading the negative economic/ecologic/social impact of human activity elsewhere and to future generations. It only stands to reason that the greatest share - mind you not the only share, but certainly the greatest share - of responsibility in finding a solution lies on the heads of both those who wield the most socioeconomic power and those who benefit the most from this exploitation. And what a surprise, these two qualities go hand in hand! And this goes down to even the bottom quintile of wealthy countries, because for all their troubles - which I'm not trying to diminish, they are real troubles, especially in the US - they still have sociopolitical power in their own countries that even their economic betters in poorer nations just do not have. I'm relatively well off. I own my home, I'm currently living rather pay-check to pay-check but don't have any crippling debts. I inform myself and others, and due to family circumstances I have some political connections which I use to push for positive climate policy at a local and even national level. But I'm not an American citizen. I live in a tributary state. I have no voice in the policy decisions of the so-called Greatest Country in the World. And I understand there are people in this very thread who are facing worse economic adversity than myself, yet, simply by virtue of their birth they're far more capable of pushing for effective systemic action than I could ever hope to be in any practical terms. So gently caress yeah, there's some real White Man's Burden here. I'll continue to work to sort poo poo out from my end as best I can, and I'm not gonna let any G7 types pull a karma Houdini on their share of this loving mess by diffusing responsibility with sadbrains and solipsistic rationalizations.
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Oct 20, 2018 19:45
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Conspiratiorist posted:Wealthy elites in third world countries are little different from wealthy elites in first world countries. Humanity is fundamentally evil. People everywhere are assholes. These are somehow unique insights? OK. Cool. It's not as if anyone was actually expecting you to take on some sort of loss, or any material inconvenience. Keep on postin'!
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Oct 20, 2018 20:11
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Rime posted:Hoo boy, I guess you all can casually discuss this poo poo when it's abstracted, but throw what you're actually saying back in your face and you rush off to the report function like a child told they can't have a candy. man you're poison pilling this insight so I'm going to link your article again: https://news.mongabay.com/2018/10/tropical-deforestation-now-emits-more-co2-than-the-eu/ quote:So while, under current trends, tropical forests are currently contributing 8 percent of the problem every year, Global Forest Watch estimates that they could potentially provide 23 percent of the climate change mitigation needed to keep warming under 2 degrees by 2030. Tropical forests have the potential to mitigate about 7.1 billion metric tons of carbon dioxide annually, more than the total carbon dioxide-equivalent emissions of the U.S. in 2014. i hadn't considered this (edit: obviously I know trees=good, but the actual figures are crazy) and i don't think anyone in this thread has brought it up in the past few months. it's like, EXHIBIT A in the "horror that consumption-through-capitalism is inflicting on the environment via climate change" trial. im depressed lol fucked around with this message at 20:29 on Oct 20, 2018 |
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Oct 20, 2018 20:25
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Pudding Space posted:Y'all are worthless poseurs to a man. Oh I see, you and rime think everyone is worthless, so it was just an accident he seemed to be advocating inflicting further atrocities on the third world. Is it too white mans burden of me to wonder if theres some organization i can send money to, that will help build infrastructure for communities in the tropics? Or otherwise look for avenues to help the situation, not just be Conspiratiorist posted:diffusing responsibility with sadbrains and solipsistic rationalizations.
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Oct 20, 2018 23:05
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I was making a deeply sarcastic comment on the nature of endlessly debating the relatively pitiful carbon cost of airline travel in here, while blithely engaging in a daily lifestyle of consumption which is inherently destroying the planet. You can sit high on a horse and proudly declare You aren't racist, but as long as you're still hitting the 9-5, buying poo poo, eating from a grocery store, and generally living within the system of western largest; rather than actively working to overthrow global capitalism - you're wholly contributing to poor bastards in the undeveloped world destroying their environment in an attempt to not starve to death. Declaring, through your actions, that you don't give a poo poo if the world burns and millions die so long as You aren't impacted. This was, obviously, a subtext which either hit so close to home that it triggered the gently caress out of the lot of ya, or just too subtle for your superior right-thinking minds to grasp.
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Oct 21, 2018 00:03
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It's important to note that countries like the Democratic Republic of the Congo are still de facto colonial states, as in any decisions their government makes have to side with EU interests. If they don't, the FFL is sent in to kill the leaders and replace them with greedy local "rebels" who will gladly sign a "legitimate" trade agreement to sell off the countries resources for a little skim off the top.
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Oct 21, 2018 00:19
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Rime posted:This was, obviously, a subtext which either hit so close to home that it triggered the gently caress out of the lot of ya, or just too subtle for your superior right-thinking minds to grasp. You should probably stare at a galaxy brain meme until that thought goes away. What part of "individual behavior is the gateway to collective behavior" is difficult for fuckwits like you and OOCC to grasp? Is it because "we don't have time"? If 1.5-2 C of warming is the thing we're trying to avoid, sure. That ship has sailed. There are always worse scenarios we can avoid, though. Hello Sailor fucked around with this message at 01:01 on Oct 21, 2018 |
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Oct 21, 2018 00:58
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Unless you are actively dismantling the system, there are billions of other people without self awareness who are happy to keep eating McD's in your place and feeding the economic steamroller which is engaged in the industrial destruction of our biosphere. You not flying or switching to a (agriculturally intensive and responsible for tropical deforestation) vegan diet means jack poo poo. You moving to a mud hut in the woods and going primitive means Jack. poo poo. There is no individual winning play here except for one. Get it? We have at best a decade left before processes ensure our climate is guaranteed to kill off most sentient life present on the planet, and as far as we've been able to determine, our galaxy. I could give two shits if some dude is flying around petting cats, because this is a thread full of privileged westerners who aren't willing to actually sacrifice to change the world. Rime fucked around with this message at 01:38 on Oct 21, 2018 |
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Oct 21, 2018 01:34
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Rime posted:Unless you are actively dismantling the system, there are billions of other people without self awareness who are happy to keep eating McD's in your place and feeding the economic steamroller which is engaged in the industrial destruction of our biosphere. No, this is just sadbrains poo poo that you believe. Cite your sources for these two things: Stupid and wrong thing you and OOCC believe #1: individual action never inspires collective action. My rebuttal? The civil rights and gay rights movements. Stupid and wrong thing you (and possibly OOCC) believe #2: climate change, if left unmitigated for no more than a decade, will lead to the net human population going below half of what it is now. That's not in the IPCC report, you just want to believe it. e: ChairMaster posted:It's straight up farcical to pretend like there's any individual action (that we're allowed to talk about) can make an actual difference in the eventual fate of the world's climate. Anyone who thinks that the reduction of their own carbon footprint is in any way meaningful has no idea what the actual scope of the problem we face is. Cite your sources for #1, please. Hello Sailor fucked around with this message at 01:52 on Oct 21, 2018 |
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Oct 21, 2018 01:47
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It's straight up farcical to pretend like there's any individual action (that we're allowed to talk about) can make an actual difference in the eventual fate of the world's climate. Anyone who thinks that the reduction of their own carbon footprint is in any way meaningful has no idea what the actual scope of the problem we face is.
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Oct 21, 2018 01:51
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every ton matters, no matter how much you wish it didnt (me too!)
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Oct 21, 2018 01:54
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Rime posted:Unless you are actively dismantling the system, there are billions of other people without self awareness who are happy to keep eating McD's in your place and feeding the economic steamroller which is engaged in the industrial destruction of our biosphere. Wrong, a single individual performing an action could eventually cause millions or even billions to do that action as well by emulating that action. For example if I go to the grocery store and buy some tofu plus a bunch of other ingredients to make tofu taste better, and then go to the checkout aisle and neatly arrange the tofu and ingredients on the belt, then other customers near me would see the tofu and ingredients and think to themselves "hmm, this guy seems to be eating tofu, maybe I should give it a shot." Then they too buy tofu to try it out and other customers see them buying tofu. This way the number of people buying tofu instead of meat increases exponentially until meat consumption and hence CO2 production is greatly decreased. I tried that tofu trick and it ended up not working because I ended up not liking the taste of tofu, so when I bought meat again customers saw me buying meat and agreed that meat was better.
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Oct 21, 2018 01:55
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On a completely unrelated note, the only reason black people got rights was because the government was faced with a choice between violent revolutionaries ala Malcom X and peaceful protestors ala MLK jr. The erasure of Malcom X and the Black Panther's influence on the course of American History is one of the most frustrating things about the modern American ignorance of history, and the pathetic and worthless obsession with decorum that resulted from it will most likely literally destroy global human civilization.
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Oct 21, 2018 01:55
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Individual action has to happen before collective action. Recycling, changing your diet, flying less, ect will all have only a small impact on emissions, but all of that primes people into the mindset of struggling to make changes. Before the public will accept the big changes of restructuring the transportation grid and cities, building nuclear, and revamping industrial farming, the culture has to change. You change the culture by focusing on individual actions. Again, while the small changes don't meaningfully impact emissions, they change the culture by getting people into the mindset of caring.
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Oct 21, 2018 02:00
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Jesus christ, immediately after my last post they post that. You cannot honestly believe that that ridiculous idea has any relevance in a reasonable timeframe. Comparing gay rights to climate change is one of the most ridiculously hosed up and obscene things I've ever had to listen to. Do you have any idea how loving long it took for gay marriage to be legal in America? Giving gay people the right to marry each other has absolutely zero impact on the lives of anyone else and it took decades. Giving up a poo poo load of the hilariously exorbitant luxuries that we use every day to destroy the environment is an exponentially larger ask, and you seriously believe that it's going to happen in anything resembling a relevant time frame? Seriously?
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Oct 21, 2018 02:11
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Bishounen Bonanza posted:Individual action has to happen before collective action. Recycling, changing your diet, flying less, ect will all have only a small impact on emissions, but all of that primes people into the mindset of struggling to make changes. Before the public will accept the big changes of restructuring the transportation grid and cities, building nuclear, and revamping industrial farming, the culture has to change. You change the culture by focusing on individual actions.  like, do you live in America, dude?
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Oct 21, 2018 02:17
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Bishounen Bonanza posted:Individual action has to happen before collective action. Recycling, changing your diet, flying less, ect will all have only a small impact on emissions, but all of that primes people into the mindset of struggling to make changes. Before the public will accept the big changes of restructuring the transportation grid and cities, building nuclear, and revamping industrial farming, the culture has to change. You change the culture by focusing on individual actions. Or you just regulate the harmful practices and/or industries out of existence at a government level. ChairMaster's point is super relevant here, because it's a hilarious misconception that things get done in democracies only when everyone agrees that they should be done. You will probably never convince anywhere near a majority of people to agree to do the right thing, so you need to trust elected officials to make the correct decision when presented with an objectively right and objectively wrong course of action. Civil rights examples in particular are loving horrible because those policies were literally zero cost for the people not directly affected by them and they still took forever. People were willing to kill just to stop someone else from having some semblance of equal rights, and yet somehow you think that a similar mechanism is the best way to tackle a problem that is both legitimately costly and that now needs to be addressed in less than a decade? I'm beginning to think democracy really was a mistake if this is the kind of thought process it pushes people into.
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Oct 21, 2018 02:19
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I’m ok starting the ecorevolution by driving bulldozers through banks and/or payday loan centers (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 21, 2018 02:27
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Rime posted:Unless you are actively dismantling the system, there are billions of other people without self awareness who are happy to keep eating McD's in your place and feeding the economic steamroller which is engaged in the industrial destruction of our biosphere. All talk and no action from you. Get busy blowing up pipelines coward (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 21, 2018 02:37
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ChairMaster posted:It's straight up farcical to pretend like there's any individual action (that we're allowed to talk about) can make an actual difference in the eventual fate of the world's climate. Anyone who thinks that the reduction of their own carbon footprint is in any way meaningful has no idea what the actual scope of the problem we face is. Stopping the current mass dying can in fact be done by you personally and you're a loving monster for not doing it. 
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Oct 21, 2018 02:42
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Notorious R.I.M. posted:All talk and no action from you. Get busy blowing up pipelines coward Wouldn't this cause a major ecological disaster? You're better off just barricading the entrances to a busy diner in a blood red county and just setting that fucker on fire.
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Oct 21, 2018 02:43
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qkkl posted:Wrong, a single individual performing an action could eventually cause millions or even billions to do that action as well by emulating that action. How many of your grocery buying decisions are influenced by what the person ahead of you in line is purchasing and how stylishly they're staging the packaged food on the checkout belt?
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Oct 21, 2018 02:48
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Papal Infallibility posted:Wouldn't this cause a major ecological disaster? You're better off just barricading the entrances to a busy diner in a blood red county and just setting that fucker on fire. This post exhibits a fundamental misunderstanding of the function and purpose of terrorism.
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Oct 21, 2018 02:48
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Blanketspace posted:How many of your grocery buying decisions are influenced by what the person ahead of you in line is purchasing and how stylishly they're staging the packaged food on the checkout belt? 
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Oct 21, 2018 02:49
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ChairMaster posted:This post exhibits a fundamental misunderstanding of the function and purpose of terrorism. It is not terrorism, it's climate mitigation you loving retard. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 21, 2018 02:50
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Papal Infallibility posted:It is not terrorism, it's climate mitigation you loving retard. ..... It is incredible to me that someone can so completely and fundamentally understand the point of what I am implying here.
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Oct 21, 2018 02:55
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