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Section Z
Oct 1, 2008

Wait, this is the Moon.
How did I even get here?

Pillbug

Infinite Karma posted:

Trying to balance burst damage vs. average damage is dumb, because the burst damagers will just use all of their resources and then insist on resting, while the average damagers end up being worse, except for the few times that rests get interrupted and the resource-depleted characters get to groan through a meatgrinder encounter with no useful abilities.

Champion vs. Battlemaster should be Bigger Numbers (Champion) vs. Normal Numbers plus Special Effects (Battlemaster). The fact that the superiority dice end up turning the special effects into burst damage is the bad design, on top of the superiority dice being too far between. If the Champion's niche is going all day, he should have higher AC, better saves, more HP/free healing, hit more, and do more at-will damage than the characters who have short rest/long rest resources that will do more than the Champion's at-wills. Then it's actually a meaningful choice in the party's ability balance.

I mean, the bonus damage on Battlemaster is as much a concession for the many times Martial Statistics are the enemy strong point while casters run roughshod on bad Wisdom saves or the fact they get to ignore disadvantage. "Too bad you're fighting a bunch of stuff that can easily make Strength saves, huh?"

Most maneuvers having bonus damage a lot of the time turns into "Well, gently caress. These enemies are bound to make their saves. May as well burn a maneuver so I hit slightly harder." Or simply helping your bad streak of a scrawny necromancer making three STR saves in a row not feel like a complete waste.

Not like Battlemaster gets 'half damage on a miss' either :v: they only get their "burst" if they HIT. Which reminds me, Precision Attack doesn't give you any bonus damage.

Section Z fucked around with this message at 02:02 on Oct 21, 2018

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lightrook
Nov 7, 2016

Pin 188

AlphaDog posted:

The very simplest example of an ability that switches you from consistent to bursty without using resources is one that trades +hit for +damage.

Another would be trading +hit for +critrange.

Then there are things that consume no resources but require a setup. Sneak Attack is one example.

There's a bunch of stuff you can do with situational and positioning triggers too (eg, "when you become bloodied...").

Then there's weirdo crap like "You take a -1 to hit, and an additional -1 to hit each round. When you do hit, calculate your damage X times where X is the number of times you missed before hitting" you could write if you wanted to.

Oh, I guess I had a different idea about burst, but this makes sense too.

It's kind of a shame they haven't brought make anything that interacts with the Bloodied state, or even just the Bloodied state at all; it works on the same principle as Escalation Dice of backloading certain combat interactions, because without it, it makes too much sense to come out of the gate swinging big and then closing out on a whimper, which isn't nearly as narratively satisfying.

For a really simple example, maybe something like this would give martials some tactical choices - either disengage and focus down one weakened enemy, or hold position and tie up a healthy one:

Press the Attack: For the rest of your turn, all your attacks against bloodied enemies strike their weak points of Massive Bonus Damage. Recharges once per short rest.

koreban
Apr 4, 2008

I guess we all learned that trying to get along is way better than p. . .player hatin'.
Fun Shoe

MonsterEnvy posted:

It's not super elegant but I could see that working, I was thinking of giving this a try in an upcoming game.

I gave the barbarians the champion stuff, and then all the fighters got the battlemaster maneuvers kit.

My games also play out that NPCs have classes/abilities as well, so barbarians of all types got the buff, and fighters of all humanoid types got maneuvers.

My players are much more cautious and tactical when facing a pack of bandits because they can almost be sure that one or two are classed enemies who know a thing or two.

Haven’t looked back since, and nothing but complements from the players, which includes several 5e veterans and a couple of 2e/3e devotees.

MonsterEnvy
Feb 4, 2012

Shocked I tell you

koreban posted:

My games also play out that NPCs have classes/abilities as well, so barbarians of all types got the buff, and fighters of all humanoid types got maneuvers.

My players are much more cautious and tactical when facing a pack of bandits because they can almost be sure that one or two are classed enemies who know a thing or two.

Haven’t looked back since, and nothing but complements from the players, which includes several 5e veterans and a couple of 2e/3e devotees.

Doing stuff like this can help make monsters more interesting. I remember early on there was some simple things like, "This Ogre is a Champion Fighter, so he has action surge and a higher crit range." which can make a few monsters tough without having do change them too much as there is not need to actually build them with the same system. Giving them one or two extra abilities from a class can be helpful.

lightrook posted:

Oh, I guess I had a different idea about burst, but this makes sense too.

It's kind of a shame they haven't brought make anything that interacts with the Bloodied state, or even just the Bloodied state at all; it works on the same principle as Escalation Dice of backloading certain combat interactions, because without it, it makes too much sense to come out of the gate swinging big and then closing out on a whimper, which isn't nearly as narratively satisfying.

For a really simple example, maybe something like this would give martials some tactical choices - either disengage and focus down one weakened enemy, or hold position and tie up a healthy one:

Press the Attack: For the rest of your turn, all your attacks against bloodied enemies strike their weak points of Massive Bonus Damage. Recharges once per short rest.
Bloodied is kinda in the game. I think ether the DMG or PHB says that a Monster at half hp or lower is considered bloodied. (Were notable wounds from the battle actually start the show.) But nothing is really done with it, other then that a few monsters have abilities that activate at half health. Like the quaggoth who deal an extra die of damage at half hp.

koreban
Apr 4, 2008

I guess we all learned that trying to get along is way better than p. . .player hatin'.
Fun Shoe

MonsterEnvy posted:

Doing stuff like this can help make monsters more interesting. I remember early on there was some simple things like, "This Ogre is a Champion Fighter, so he has action surge and a higher crit range." which can make a few monsters tough without having do change them too much as there is not need to actually build them with the same system. Giving them one or two extra abilities from a class can be helpful.

The “early on” caveats still apply. Don’t do much of this before level 3 or so. Max your players HP per level and/or do hit die + con number for HP at level 1, etc.

To put it in LMoP terms, the goblin ambush had no class goblins, the cave had 2, one in the wolf pens, one in the room where the captive was held. The bugbear was a fighter and did knockdowns, but then moved to other player characters because he was too dumb to realize knockdown wasn’t KO’d.

It made the encounters slightly more dynamic, introduced abilities to players early so they knew to be cautious, and when they go the same options, they had already seen some of them in play already, so they were excited to be able to do the stuff that had been used on them.

By the time they got to the black spider, his guards were fighters and were coordinating his defense tactically, including knocking down the ranger and rogue so the spider could attempt an escape when things got bad for him.

Fruity20
Jul 28, 2018

Do you believe in magic, Tenno?
Okay, is a tiefling rouge easy to play? Asking for a friend.

KingKalamari
Aug 24, 2007

Fuzzy dice, bongos in the back
My ship of love is ready to attack

Fruity20 posted:

Okay, is a tiefling rouge easy to play? Asking for a friend.

Should be fine, though they may want to look into one of the variants released in Mordekainen's Tome of Foes: The Glasya or Dispater options are a bit better geared towards Rogue-ing

FactsAreUseless
Feb 16, 2011

Fruity20 posted:

Okay, is a tiefling rouge easy to play? Asking for a friend.
Thiefling

Admiral Joeslop
Jul 8, 2010




Fruity20 posted:

Okay, is a tiefling rouge easy to play? Asking for a friend.

As long as you get someone to open the case for you. Can't just leave it open or you'll float away on the wind.

Kaysette
Jan 5, 2009

~*Boston makes me*~
~*feel good*~

:wrongcity:

Fruity20 posted:

Okay, is a tiefling rouge easy to play? Asking for a friend.

You can pick your skin color at character creation so its super easy. Much more natural for a tiefling than other races.

Bogan Krkic
Oct 31, 2010

Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.

Fruity20 posted:

Okay, is a tiefling rouge easy to play? Asking for a friend.

MY WIFE plays a tiefling rogue pretty successfully and she's got no idea what she's doing most of the time, so I'd say yeah it's easy enough

TheGreatEvilKing
Mar 28, 2016





theironjef posted:

Plus all that stuff you're saying here about 3.5 charop was never intended by the designers. I mean, 3.x is still an era where the designers thought strength was the most heavily weighted stat so the half-orc had to take two penalty stats to get it. Players learning to cobble together little jenga towers of magazine feats to stay competitive was just hobos figuring out how to make mulligan stew.

This cannot be overstated. Go read the class advice in Complete Mage, a book released near the end of 3.5, and compare it to the actual characters of people who knew what they were doing. It's a common thing in D&D design for the designers to be far behind the internet in actually understanding the game. Look at the beginning/leadup to 4e, where Mearls and co were insisting that AoE damage was control and the entire internet community was rolling its eyes because the designers had no idea what they were talking about.

This is why Mearls can write articles about how grease winning fights is some kind of big insight while the rest of us just kinda cringe and hope someone buys the IP.

Liquid Communism
Mar 9, 2004

MonsterEnvy posted:

Well one reason it would not work is that you normally have to see your target.

This is why Shadowrun has complex rules about what optical enhancements a mage can cast through.

Buy a spyglass and snipe away.

Arthil
Feb 17, 2012

A Beard of Constant Sorrow

Fresh Shesh Besh posted:

Well then I won't feel bad when I clamp down on this for our next session. It really killed any tension or mystery I was trying to create. Both of them have been playing D&D a lot longer than I have so I just kinda took their word for it.

I feel like they either are being buttheads and trying to confuse the new DM, or they could be getting it mixed up with the Level 7 Barbarian Ability, Feral Instinct. You don't get to walk around going "Do I sense danger?" But you can't be surprised if you aren't incapacitated and the first thing you do on your turn is Rage. It's something I've never gotten to use with my own Barbarian.

Ryuujin
Sep 26, 2007
Dragon God
Giving all Fighters the Champion abilities could work. Or you could combine Champion and Brute, maybe double up on some of the stuff that both get.

Hmm a hypothetical Champion Brute:

pre:
Brute Force
Starting at 3rd level, you’re able to strike with your weapons with especially brutal force. Whenever you hit with a weapon that you’re proficient with 
and deal damage, the weapon’s damage increases by an amount based on your level in this class, as shown on the Brute Bonus Damage table.

Brute Bonus Damage

Fighter Level

Damage Increase  (or maybe even double the dice)

3rd     1d4 (2d4)
10th   1d6  (2d6)
16th   1d8  (2d8)
20th   1d10  (2d10)

Improved Critical
Beginning when you choose this archetype at 3rd level, your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20.

Brutish Durability
Beginning at 7th level, your toughness allows you to shrug off assaults that would devastate others.

Whenever you make a saving throw, roll 1d6 and add the die to your saving throw total. If applying this bonus to a death saving throw increases the 
total to 20 or higher, you gain the benefits of rolling a 20 on the d20.

Remarkable Athlete
Starting at 7th level, you can add half your proficiency bonus (round up) to any Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution check you make that doesn’t 
already use your proficiency bonus in addition to any proficiency bonus you normally add.

In addition, when you make a running long jump, the distance you can cover increases by a number of feet equal to your Strength modifier you 
are counted as always being under the effect of the Jump spell, tripling your jumping distance

This was bad so try and make it a bit better.

Additional Fighting Style
At 10th level, you can choose a second, and a third, option from the Fighting Style class feature.  Both archetypes get this, so going to make it 
nicer  Any numerical bonuses from these fighting styles, or the one you took at 1st level, are doubled.

Archery
You gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls you make with ranged weapons.  Would become +4, this might be a bit much.

Defense
While you are wearing armor, you gain a +1 bonus to AC.  This would become +2 to AC.

Dueling
When you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with that weapon.  This would 
become +4 damage.

Great Weapon Fighting
When you roll a 1 or 2 on a damage die for an attack you make with a melee weapon that you are wielding with two hands, you can reroll the die 
and must use the new roll, even if the new roll is a 1 or a 2. The weapon must have the two-handed or versatile property for you to gain this 
benefit.  Doubling these numbers may be a bit much, maybe if they roll a 1, 2 or 3 on the die?  Or maybe give it 4e Brutal where you keep 
rerolling until the die does not come up a 1 or 2.

Protection
When a creature you can see attacks a target other than you that is within 5 feet of you, you can use your reaction to impose disadvantage on the 
attack roll. You must be wielding a shield.  Not sure how to improve this.

Two-Weapon Fighting
When you engage in two-weapon fighting, you can add your ability modifier to the damage of the second attack.  Also not sure how to improve this

Superior Critical  
Starting at 15th level, your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 18–20.  

Devastating Critical
Starting at 15th level, when you score a critical hit with a weapon attack, you gain a bonus to that weapon’s damage roll equal to your level in this class.

Survivor
At 18th level, you attain the pinnacle of resilience in battle. At the start of each of your turns, you regain hit points equal to 5 + your Constitution modifier 
if you have no more than half of your hit points left. You don’t gain this benefit if you have 0 hit points.  So both archetypes normally get this, so could 
double up to be 10 + 2x Con mod, or just 10+ Con mod HP
This would be pretty powerful, especially if doubling the Brute's damage dice, would synergize well, and wouldn't really step on the Battlemaster's toes.

MonsterEnvy
Feb 4, 2012

Shocked I tell you
Oh the Table of Contents for the Ravncia book was leaked.

Toshimo
Aug 23, 2012

He's outta line...

But he's right!
I wish Ravnica was AL legal because it's the raddest setting and I would day1 buy Ravnica HCs.

CuddlyZombie
Nov 6, 2005

I wuv your brains.

It would be cool to run a ravnica game, IMO

MonsterEnvy
Feb 4, 2012

Shocked I tell you

Toshimo posted:

I wish Ravnica was AL legal because it's the raddest setting and I would day1 buy Ravnica HCs.

Maybe they will do a season at some point when the book comes out.

MonsterEnvy
Feb 4, 2012

Shocked I tell you
On Amazon also leaked the first pages of character creation. Which has a really cool piece of art.



Look at that Elephant Man.

DalaranJ
Apr 15, 2008

Yosuke will now die for you.

Toshimo posted:

I wish Ravnica was AL legal because it's the raddest setting and I would day1 buy Ravnica HCs.

What happened to PHB plus 1? I guess it doesn't count because it isn't an FR setting book? That sucks.

Dinictus
Nov 26, 2005

May our CoX spray white sticky fluid at our enemies forever!
HAIL ARACHNOS!
Soiled Meat

DalaranJ posted:

What happened to PHB plus 1? I guess it doesn't count because it isn't an FR setting book? That sucks.

This makes me very leery about other future setting books. Including Eberron of all things.

MonsterEnvy
Feb 4, 2012

Shocked I tell you

DalaranJ posted:

What happened to PHB plus 1? I guess it doesn't count because it isn't an FR setting book? That sucks.
I think the player options from the book can be used.

Dinictus posted:

This makes me very leery about other future setting books. Including Eberron of all things.

Eberron is getting a season.

Elector_Nerdlingen
Sep 27, 2004



My limited understanding of AL is that any given rulebook (or content?) is forbidden unless explicitly permitted - thus unless there's an AL rule that says "Sourcebook X is permitted", you can't use Sourcebook X even if its the only thing other than the phb that you use.

Is that right?

Azza Bamboo
Apr 7, 2018


THUNDERDOME LOSER 2021
Why wouldn't WotC make DnD pay to win?

All sourcebooks are fine so long as you own the hard copy $$$

Piell
Sep 3, 2006

Grey Worm's Ken doll-like groin throbbed with the anticipatory pleasure that only a slightly warm and moist piece of lemoncake could offer


Young Orc
PHB +1 is the worst and dumbest rule

Josef bugman
Nov 17, 2011

Pictured: Poster prepares to celebrate Holy Communion (probablY)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund
Okay quick thing but why are Pact of the Chain warlocks considered so much better than the other 2?

I can't seem to work out why, all the pet seems capable of doing is some light recon and getting itself merced. I mean if you want to grab something more suitable I'd always say that the Book option is better.

Splicer
Oct 16, 2006

from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

Josef bugman posted:

Okay quick thing but why are Pact of the Chain warlocks considered so much better than the other 2?

I can't seem to work out why, all the pet seems capable of doing is some light recon and getting itself merced. I mean if you want to grab something more suitable I'd always say that the Book option is better.
All the benefits of a standard Familar, plus Imp or Qasit gives you owlvantage+, advantage on saving throws vs magic, 120 foot darkvision (including magical darkness for Imp), and see-through-walls invisible mage hand.

Kaysette
Jan 5, 2009

~*Boston makes me*~
~*feel good*~

:wrongcity:

Splicer posted:

All the benefits of a standard Familar, plus Imp or Qasit gives you owlvantage+, advantage on saving throws vs magic, 120 foot darkvision (including magical darkness for Imp), and see-through-walls invisible mage hand.

No magic resistance for the warlock:

https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/725190105451888640

Josef bugman
Nov 17, 2011

Pictured: Poster prepares to celebrate Holy Communion (probablY)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

Splicer posted:

All the benefits of a standard Familar, plus Imp or Qasit gives you owlvantage+, advantage on saving throws vs magic, 120 foot darkvision (including magical darkness for Imp), and see-through-walls invisible mage hand.

What is owlvangtage? How do they give you advantage on magic saving throws?

Splicer
Oct 16, 2006

from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸
Ughhhhh this loving game.

Undead Hippo
Jun 2, 2013

Josef bugman posted:

What is owlvangtage? How do they give you advantage on magic saving throws?

Owlvantage isn't actually relevant. It's the idea that an Owl can use the aid another action in combat to grant advantage to allies, while using flyby attack to keep itself mostly out of harms way (flyby attack means that owls don't trigger attacks when they move). Imps can still use aid another, but they don't have flyby attack. That means they can't dive in and out of combat zones nearly as easily. The Imp also has an actual attack, unlike an owl, so using it purely as an advantage generator feels kind of weak.

Advantage on magic saving throws is referring to a sidebar in the Monster Manual entry for Imps, saying that Imp familiars can share their magic resistance trait with their master if they are within 10 feet. I'm shocked that this was apparently not meant to indicate that a player with an Imp familiar could share the magic resistance trait of the Imp.

Toshimo
Aug 23, 2012

He's outta line...

But he's right!

Undead Hippo posted:

Owlvantage isn't actually relevant. It's the idea that an Owl can use the aid another action in combat to grant advantage to allies, while using flyby attack to keep itself mostly out of harms way (flyby attack means that owls don't trigger attacks when they move). Imps can still use aid another, but they don't have flyby attack. That means they can't dive in and out of combat zones nearly as easily. The Imp also has an actual attack, unlike an owl, so using it purely as an advantage generator feels kind of weak.

Pretty sure Quasits and Imps only break invisibility when attacking, so they can help action without breaking. This is arguably as good or better than owlvantage.

Splicer
Oct 16, 2006

from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

Undead Hippo posted:

Owlvantage isn't actually relevant. It's the idea that an Owl can use the aid another action in combat to grant advantage to allies, while using flyby attack to keep itself mostly out of harms way (flyby attack means that owls don't trigger attacks when they move). Imps can still use aid another, but they don't have flyby attack. That means they can't dive in and out of combat zones nearly as easily. The Imp also has an actual attack, unlike an owl, so using it purely as an advantage generator feels kind of weak.
Imps and quasits can turn invisible, and movement only provokes opportunity attacks if they can see you. It's better than flyby attack, as long as you're not fighting blindsight enemies.

Their base attack also being decent just means you get to pick and choose based on circumstances.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015

17th Separate Kryvyi Rih Tank Brigade named after Konstantin Pestushko
Look to my coming on the first light of the fifth sixth some day

Josef bugman posted:

Okay quick thing but why are Pact of the Chain warlocks considered so much better than the other 2?

I can't seem to work out why, all the pet seems capable of doing is some light recon and getting itself merced. I mean if you want to grab something more suitable I'd always say that the Book option is better.

Invisible familiar.

That's it.

Imp shared Magic Resistance doesn't work, because it's not a real MM Imp you're making a contract with - much like standard familiars, it's a critter-shaped spirit that copies a creature's statblock, and sharing MR isn't part of the Imp's statblock.

So it's all about the invisible familiar and no, it's not actually significantly better. You can just get Tome + Book of Ancient Secrets invocation for extra cantrips and all the rituals including standard Find Familiar for an owl. If you don't have anyone else in the party capable of getting Wizard Rituals, that's the vastly superior option.

Josef bugman
Nov 17, 2011

Pictured: Poster prepares to celebrate Holy Communion (probablY)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund
I, personally, am playing a Hexlock. I was more asking for a friend who is going to be playing a Gra'azt worshipping Genasi and was wondering which of the options was best for them.

I will tell them to stick with their current idea of having the Book as their additional. We do have a Wizard in the group but he is kind of playing a mad scientist rather than the more traditional mage.

Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 16:01 on Oct 21, 2018

TheGreatEvilKing
Mar 28, 2016






I don't know why they keep doing the NPCs>you thing so drat much. Now, having a rule buried in the Monster Manual is stupid (but works for the 2e nostalgia they're desperately trying to capture) but "ha ha actually that rule applies to NPCs only" is just really infuriating.

Nehru the Damaja
May 20, 2005

I've tried to homebrew a fighter in the style of action heroes before and it's tricky as hell to make an interesting/good martial thing. Ideally he'd be moving through a fight disarming people, throwing their weapons, picking up other ones, improvising weapons from the area around him, etc. Somewhere between a John Woo hero throwing away his guns for more on the ground and Jackie Chan beating the gently caress out of everyone with whatever he can find.

I think the concept is sort of core to a fighter power fantasy but God it doesn't mesh with existing mechanics great

Splicer
Oct 16, 2006

from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

TheGreatEvilKing posted:

I don't know why they keep doing the NPCs>you thing so drat much. Now, having a rule buried in the Monster Manual is stupid (but works for the 2e nostalgia they're desperately trying to capture) but "ha ha actually that rule applies to NPCs only" is just really infuriating.
Nah, NPCs and PCs being different is a good thing, the problem is that 5E dithers back and forth between NPCs working like PCs but with specific exceptions and won't commit either way.

I tried to due diligance before posting but got caught by Roll20s Pact of the Chain hyperlinking to the full MM Quasit entry :negative:

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Gharbad the Weak
Feb 23, 2008

This too good for you.

TheGreatEvilKing posted:

I don't know why they keep doing the NPCs>you thing so drat much.

I'm very, very strongly on the side that NPCs and PCs should be built in different ways. But normally I think in terms of PCs being able to do things that an NPC can't.

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