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https://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/345 The Mending of Isaac.
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Oct 13, 2018 21:02
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| # ? Jun 9, 2024 22:45 |
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:I think things had been kind of going off the rails for a while but the failure of the scroll to send him home was a huge red flag for me. It’s just bad storytelling: when you set up a bomb and spend so much time and effort explaining why it’s so dangerous and why it must be thwarted, then you detonate it and immediately go “lol nope didn’t matter,” it completely undermines your ability to tell a story with proper stakes. I generally agree with you, but I thought the scroll thing was perfectly fine. It was never set up as a bomb, it was set up as, well, a way to send Parson back to the real world. And I don't think anyone reading the comic thought that he'd ever really leave Erfworld til the end of the story, unless it was going to be a quick dip in the real world as an obstacle until he found a way to get back. I would have been perfectly satisfied even if it hadn't been a magic rear end-pull -- I originally thought it was because the scroll was sending Parson "home", and Parson had started to think of Gobwin Knob as his true home.
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Oct 13, 2018 21:16
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I have a lot of problems with it narratively. It’s not about whether it makes sense in universe, but it was built up for ages as this huge climax, this plan that parson would have to thwart. They spent so much on buildup that it felt like it almost had to be thwarted. Then after all that it... successfully went off, but failed for a completely unforeseen and hitherto believed impossible method, and also immediately ceased to matter. because the next thing that happened wouldn’t have any need for parson and he wouldn’t have been able to affect anything anyhow. it’s terrible pacing, not just at the individual-comic level but on the level of the story. you have rising and falling action for a reason.
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Oct 13, 2018 22:39
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The scroll should have burnt up when he tried to read it when he was stuck in the burning city and Fate dropped a beam on him. It always felt like a weak threat to me because it was too big of a threat to actually happen in the story and it was something Parson had to consciously trigger.
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Oct 14, 2018 00:31
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Using the scroll should have been the climactic end of a story arc and start of a new one. Perhaps Parson would end up trapped in limbo and would have to quest his way back. We could explore some of the themes that were introduced and dropped like Saline IV. Balder could also time jump the story, which would let him move his various pawns around to where they have to be without a bunch of tortured plot logic. Instead it was like, ploop, now back to the gripping Squabble Over Transylvito
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Oct 14, 2018 03:06
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You see the length of that Epilogue? That's how long all the text updates should basically be.
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Oct 14, 2018 03:21
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There will be no winnowing of sides THIS day.
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Oct 19, 2018 21:51
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Oh, hey, look at that. All the stuff about heirs and sides disbanding gets invalidated by some magic that we've never heard about.
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Oct 19, 2018 22:17
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Skyy has more eyes! Also schmuckers are juice units apparently. Also I am sad I never got to see Skyy in knob colors.
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Oct 19, 2018 22:30
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the art for new skyy rules almost enough for me to ignore that this is, yet again, solving a long-foreshadowed and dire problem with a last-minute rear end-pull
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Oct 19, 2018 22:44
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Hm, so, I think this gets Transylvito out of the contract altogether? They don't have any more obligations to Charlescomm, although they do have a bunch of unled Charlescomm dolls hanging around their capital. EDIT: Also, yeah, it's confirmed that Bunny is really, definitely, not-resurrectable croaked, and won't be coming back. Which is to say that she probably will be coming back in doll-form, possibly alongside a Caesar doll made out of the counterfeit that Huehue made. Rand Brittain fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Oct 19, 2018 |
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Oct 19, 2018 22:56
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Someone in the comments pointed out https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tzitzimitl.jpg
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Oct 19, 2018 23:14
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Donkringel posted:Skyy has more eyes! Skeye Appleteyeneye
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Oct 19, 2018 23:26
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Phenotype posted:Oh, hey, look at that. All the stuff about heirs and sides disbanding gets invalidated by some magic that we've never heard about. It's definitely good storytelling to introduce new rules in your epilogue that no one had ever heard of that immediately contradicts everything that happened in the conclusion of your story, yes. It's like that old saying about Chekhov's gun: if there's no gun on the mantle in act 1, a bomb will go off and murder everyone in the coda.
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Oct 19, 2018 23:58
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the towers being able to gently caress with contracts is pretty big
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Oct 20, 2018 00:10
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It seems like he's basically able to do it because the person who signed it turned out to be a legal fabrication.
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Oct 20, 2018 00:18
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Grognan posted:the towers being able to gently caress with contracts is pretty big at this point, the list of things towers can't do to their own side and their own side's units is pretty short the number of crucial mechanics that have just been completely invalidated by towers is downright impressive
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Oct 20, 2018 01:05
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:It's definitely good storytelling to introduce new rules in your epilogue that no one had ever heard of that immediately contradicts everything that happened in the conclusion of your story, yes. It's like that old saying about Chekhov's gun: if there's no gun on the mantle in act 1, a bomb will go off and murder everyone in the coda. Not just that, but every scene should introduce a new bomb explosion, many of which somehow reverse the previous bomb explosion. The good news is, each scene takes forever, so the number of twists is limited slightly by the pacing. The new Skye art is great, admittedly, but ye gods this is the most Calvinball moment yet, hinging on a giant Aztec-oid temple having a moment of moral crisis causing it to reinterpret the person who just signed a contract, using that to justify to itself completely invalidating the contract with infinite plot magic. Towers don't even interact with the setting's systems, they just apply infinite juice to make their intent reality, completely bypassing game mechanics. And like any game, constant GM fiat makes the rules seem thin and the setting unreal.
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Oct 20, 2018 01:13
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Joe Slowboat posted:Not just that, but every scene should introduce a new bomb explosion, many of which somehow reverse the previous bomb explosion. The good news is, each scene takes forever, so the number of twists is limited slightly by the pacing. Don't forget that even without spending juice, they can also control the side's non-thinking units, have deeper insights into units' personalities and intentions than their own ruler does, and probably much more
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Oct 20, 2018 03:34
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You know what would have been a better idea? Just not going into all this detail about how heirs were important and expensive and took forever to pop and how a side would disappear without one, and then you just give the rulership to Skye as Caesar dies without needing another unpredictable magical rear end-pull.
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Oct 20, 2018 05:14
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Phenotype posted:You know what would have been a better idea? Just not going into all this detail about how heirs were important and expensive and took forever to pop and how a side would disappear without one, and then you just give the rulership to Skye as Caesar dies without needing another unpredictable magical rear end-pull. I mean I think the intent was that this would be huge and powerful because of that plot thread being cut off but instead it was just boring and much like every other huge twist.
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Oct 20, 2018 06:03
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Yeah, regardless of how otherwise well-executed these Huge Twists That Upend The Rules As We Knew Them are, when the story consists of nothing but them then they lose any impact.
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Oct 20, 2018 06:47
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Phenotype posted:You know what would have been a better idea? Just not going into all this detail about how heirs were important and expensive and took forever to pop and how a side would disappear without one, and then you just give the rulership to Skye as Caesar dies without needing another unpredictable magical rear end-pull. Eh, this was a central part of prince trammenis' drama and pathos in book 2, and that was my favorite part of the comic
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Oct 20, 2018 07:09
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Another way to fix this would be to have the Source start to run out of juice with all the abuse it is receiving, so suddenly all magic stops working. That'd be a fun twist. Parson brings peace to Erfworld by setting events in motion that leave it completely devoid of life.
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Oct 20, 2018 09:27
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Phenotype posted:You know what would have been a better idea? Just not going into all this detail about how heirs were important and expensive and took forever to pop and how a side would disappear without one, and then you just give the rulership to Skye as Caesar dies without needing another unpredictable magical rear end-pull. The thing is that heirs have been a big important plot point more than once. For example, it's the reason why Stanley is never allowed to go and help out in Parson's big battles. Aside from Charlie, just about every side that's gotten significant focus has had to deal with the limitations and requirements around heirs and ruler deaths...until now, at least!
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Oct 20, 2018 13:27
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Main Paineframe posted:The thing is that heirs have been a big important plot point more than once. For example, it's the reason why Stanley is never allowed to go and help out in Parson's big battles. Aside from Charlie, just about every side that's gotten significant focus has had to deal with the limitations and requirements around heirs and ruler deaths...until now, at least! Actually that brings up a possible conflict down the line. Stanley realizes that Jed can just forcefully DECLARE an heir. With how much he has pushed against that he may need to rethink his relationship with Jed. Or even better yet, explain what the gently caress went on with King Saline and the coup. That plot thread has dangled for so long it has about withered off the vine.
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Oct 21, 2018 01:46
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While the Erfworld forums are still full of die-hard fans going "Whoah - amazing twist!!", I found out that there's an Erfworld thread on the OotS forums and they make this thread look like a friendly source of optimistic feedback:quote:Did Rob just pick a random page to slap "End of Book 4" on? We're in an epilogue, and he's just quickly resolving all the Book 4 cliffhangers with deus ex machinas? If it wasn't obvious already he clearly only cares about dragging the story for as many updates as he can get his fans to stick around and pay for, and the books are an afterthought so he can get some bonus money for selling those. quote:So now sides can literally just choose to not end when they're defeated. The rules don't matter at all anymore and every single bit of worldbuilding we've ever gotten is worthless. What a great comic. Just fantastic writing. quote:I am amused on a meta level that Balder's inability to refrain from pulling giant twists that uphold the entire world by rendering irrelevant everything we've been painstakingly exposited about previously, has caused this book's epilogue to entirely undermine this book's climax. Just sharing in case anyone else was wondering "is it just that goons are too jaded to enjoy the story, or is this comic actually broken beyond hope?" The OotS forums are basically the Great Satan according to goons, so if both kind of nerds agree on this it's a pretty strong clue.
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Oct 21, 2018 03:37
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quote:strings strings strings
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Oct 21, 2018 04:33
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I'm happy that I/we are not alone with our perhaps hate-reading of the comic. I'm somehow still interested in what happens in the story. Though I wish it was just better and more coherent.
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Oct 21, 2018 06:06
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The thing that annoys me is that we went through so many twist and turns and twist and turns and in the end I can't help but think there's an easier way to get to this point that doesn't take nearly as many twists and turns, and fits in the rules.
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Oct 21, 2018 08:11
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NihilCredo posted:While the Erfworld forums are still full of die-hard fans going "Whoah - amazing twist!!", I found out that there's an Erfworld thread on the OotS forums and they make this thread look like a friendly source of optimistic feedback: A pretty strong clue we should just end the internet.
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Oct 21, 2018 13:27
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The thing that gets me is that (other than Jillian, Charlie, and Shirley) the characters are generally all likeable and compelling. They're interesting and we want to see what they'll do next. Like, when Don King croaked and Caesar became ruler, that was cool, and we wanted to see what he would do next. We wanted to see his dynamic with Parson and Stanley, we wanted to see him fighting together with Gobwin Knob, and we wanted to see the badass warlord running Transylvito the way he'd always wanted. Parson had finally built a rapport with him, and we'd seen him struggling to do what he could for TV since Book One. On the other hand, in exchange for that rulership, he'd lost the thing he valued most in life, and the only way he could get it back was by pulling Gobwin Knob's fat out of the fire. How would that change him, what would he do? As it turned out, the answer was "declare war on Faq, and then become a useless bystander who said barely anything and did even less for the entire rest of his time on Erf". He ends up literally moping himself to death just so we can see Transylvito run by some random background character warlord whose only notable feature so far is that the tower insists she has some inherent quality that makes her better than all of TV's other warlords. And the same thing is happening with all these other great characters. They're still likeable, and we still want to see them do things, but for the most part they're just being helplessly tossed around by forces beyond their control to the point where they mostly don't even try to react to things anymore. Parson spent most of Book 4 in prison cells, and almost as soon as he gets out, he's zapped back to Gobwin Knob where the only thing he can do is get yelled at by Stanley. Jack hasn't had juice since Portal Park, and his only attempt to do anything more meaningful than ventriloquism was thwarted by a literal anti-mattering field. Wanda and gang have pretty much just been led around by Big Think since she got free. Marie just carried out a plan that she'd written before the book even started, and now she's in a prison cell. Stanley just does exactly what Jed tells him to do. Ansom's been stranded in the City of Faq since shortly after Parson got locked up. And so on, and so forth. The number of characters who spent some or all of Books 3 and 4 imprisoned is pretty considerable, actually. Parson, Jack, and Maggie, of course. Ansom and Marie both got locked up by Faq. Lilith went from being locked up by Charlie to being locked up in the Magic Kingdom, and Wanda spent a fair chunk of time in Magic Kingdom custody too. Issac got crammed into a doll, which might as well be a prison considering how drat useless he's been. Vanna, Bill, and even Caesar spent some time in Transylvito's dungeons. And I'm sure I'm probably forgetting a couple more. Main Paineframe fucked around with this message at 15:01 on Oct 22, 2018 |
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Oct 22, 2018 04:46
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The strangled logic that attempts to justify Huehue deciding to violate the contract and declare Skyy heir is a pretty clunky piece of writing. It feels like Balder had an endpoint in mind and had to justify Huehue doing it, against his own prior characterisation. Plus, what's the point of setting up this elaborate puzzlebox of rules if you're just going to instantly violate it?
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Oct 22, 2018 09:18
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The majority of main characters end up in jail because even Rob realizes the magic spam is getting bullshit so he has to take magic off the table. Except then they can't do anything so they get some string magic and source-power and then we're right back in bullshit territory again.
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Oct 22, 2018 10:54
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the worst part of what happened to caesar is that "spends whole life struggling to enough for TV, spends whole comic being unjustly told that he doesn't have what it takes to be TV's heir, then when he finally becomes the ruler it turns out that he actually doesn't have what it takes" is an interesting turn of events for him. however, rather than have any real struggle with the fact that he's not actually fit to be ruler, he just kinda stops being a person. then, rather than have to work out some kind of reconciliation for not being what he thought he was, he commits suicide-by-door. this was a neat arc with a potentially interesting conclusion, but instead he just got fast tracked into death asap, and then didn't even succeed at ending TV. pretty lame way to see the character go to be honest.
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Oct 22, 2018 11:45
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Thinking about this latest twist, the issue is that we're getting a cheat that seemingly removes a bunch of consequences. No need to protect leaders or pay for expensive heirs. No need to worry about Charlescomm contract chicanery when it can just be torn up. Unlimited energy from the source to power all sorts of magical rule-breaking in the future. My hope for how to salvage this is that it has major consequences for Huehue, such that no one attempts these sorts of exploits again anytime soon. Something worse than 'side disbands'.
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Oct 22, 2018 17:25
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I'm hoping for the Source to just run dry and all cheats and insane magic to end. It'd be the best for the story.
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Oct 22, 2018 23:38
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ninjewtsu posted:but instead he just got fast tracked into death Honestly that's basically TV in a nutshell. I liked Don before he decided to become Ultra-Royal based on an event we don't see in a Text Update, that was committed on a character we only see in that one Text Update. Then he died when Parson entered TV. If it wasn't for the fact that time no longer moves I'd start taking bets on when Skyy would die.
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Oct 23, 2018 05:26
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After this I hope Balder doesn't change his mind and wimp out. We're on the path of breaking down everything, he should instead double down and start to break down the structure of comic next. Maybe have a few voiceover episodes, a video of interpretative dance, a sculpture to represent the latest agreement over psychosurgery over contract over ceasefire over sides that have ceased to exist. Go super saiyan and full meta. Because farting back into kinda sorta wargame-y environment is just not possible anymore, that ship has long since sailed.
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Oct 23, 2018 12:39
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| # ? Jun 9, 2024 22:45 |
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To truly show how Towers use Language and Signs, Balder will have to create a vivid dreamscape people will have to jack into to continue the story.
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Oct 23, 2018 14:14
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