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Farg posted:I dunno I know a dude doing a low magic game and it seems like they aren't having issues This weird when blatant powerful magic are the hard mechanics of like 90% of classes.
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Oct 22, 2018 19:06
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mango sentinel posted:This weird when blatant powerful magic are the hard mechanics of like 90% of classes. fighters only, final destination
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Oct 22, 2018 19:07
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MonsterEnvy posted:This is a really dumb change to AL. Like seriously you can't find magic weapons in the adventures anymore? No.
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Oct 22, 2018 19:09
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what's the point of AL again
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Oct 22, 2018 19:30
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Toshimo posted:No. Yeah that's a really dumb change.
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Oct 22, 2018 19:31
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Tetracube posted:what's the point of AL again It's a way to promote in-store events that applies some head-scratching rules to get in the way of that experience to make sure people don't cheat.
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Oct 22, 2018 19:37
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Tetracube posted:what's the point of AL again Assuming this is a good faith question, AL is supposed to provide a way for players to play in a drop-in capacity, whether you don't have a regular playgroup, or you have an inconvenient schedule, or you want to try new things. It's intended to give all players a standard play experience and keep characters in correct power bands so that you can take your dude to any AL game, whether convention, LGS, or kitchen table and have a somewhat balanced and consistent experience.
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Oct 22, 2018 19:38
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I had to cross reference three different PDFs to see what I could spend treasure points on, how to get them, and how much an item cost. It also only goes up to tier 4, whatever that is. Level? It probably works fine for AL but it's entirely useless for a regular game, unfortunately.
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Oct 22, 2018 19:43
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Admiral Joeslop posted:I had to cross reference three different PDFs to see what I could spend treasure points on, how to get them, and how much an item cost. It also only goes up to tier 4, whatever that is. Level? Tiers of Play -------------------- Tier Levels 1 1–4 2 5–10 3 11–16 4 17–20 Admiral Joeslop posted:It probably works fine for AL but it's entirely useless for a regular game, unfortunately. Yes, it is not designed for use outside its ecosystem.
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Oct 22, 2018 19:46
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koreban, thank you, I agree that the math isn't the problem, and that my post only addresses part of the larger discussion. I think the issue, if there is one at all, is mainly one where we need to carefully consider how player character classes and monsters are structured, why they're structured that way, what the expectations of play are, and what we need to adapt if we change something in those relationships. I think we agree on that. Just because OD&D did it one way doesn't mean we have to do it the same way in every other game. When I talk about dysfunctional play, I'm talking about play that fails to consider what you describe, like a lack of cognizance on the part of the DM, or the absence of multiple paths to the same goal. To add to that, I think it's important that the players also understand the ramifications of the choices they make, like choosing to play a fighter in a no-magic-item campaign with by-the-book monsters shouldn't result in a situation where the player is surprised that they may never find an opportunity to effectively engage certain monsters in combat. I don't think that's inherently a wrong way to play, but everyone at the table should be aware of it from the start if that's the case.
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Oct 22, 2018 19:49
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Admiral Joeslop posted:I had to cross reference three different PDFs to see what I could spend treasure points on, how to get them, and how much an item cost. It also only goes up to tier 4, whatever that is. Level? If it helps, it sucks rear end in AL too.
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Oct 22, 2018 19:50
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Toshimo posted:Assuming this is a good faith question, AL is supposed to provide a way for players to play in a drop-in capacity, whether you don't have a regular playgroup, or you have an inconvenient schedule, or you want to try new things. It's intended to give all players a standard play experience and keep characters in correct power bands so that you can take your dude to any AL game, whether convention, LGS, or kitchen table and have a somewhat balanced and consistent experience. okay but why do this as opposed to just like. the dm says "make a level 3 character" and then you make a level 3 character to play
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Oct 22, 2018 19:53
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Tetracube posted:okay but why do this as opposed to just like. the dm says "make a level 3 character" and then you make a level 3 character to play Because there's incredibly high variance between what players and dms feel is appropriate for a level 3 character? Like, some people will walk in decked out in a magic ring for every finger, and some will walk in with their starting stuff + 50gp. And because a lot of the UA and miscellaneous unofficial splat material is wildly unbalanced? So, having a standard of play is important if you want a consistent experience across tables and to be accessible to a broad audience.
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Oct 22, 2018 19:56
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Just go back to expected gold by level. Give a list of magic items, say you can have X amount at each character level.
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Oct 22, 2018 20:09
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mango sentinel posted:This weird when blatant powerful magic are the hard mechanics of like 90% of classes. The vast majority of games called low magic are more like removing magic items, but full spellcasting. There also might be slow leveling. I've heard about games that were low magic that also did something like halve spell progression, but I've never come across one myself. I have, however, seen low magic games where players could only play martial characters, but usually enemies retain spellcasting. The ones I've seen referenced dark souls and lasted about a week.
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Oct 22, 2018 20:14
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Low Magic Setting™ is usually the "Magical weapons are optional(?)" of narrative. Some handle it better than others, honesty of intention seems to help. Take Battle Brothers. You can't go five feet without tripping over Goblin Shamans. Any given orc is huge enough to snap your greatest nemesis from Shadow of Mordor in half. When it's not Necromancers, it's skeleton wizards because there is so much undead they have to classify it between "Undead" and "Ancient undead" But that's okay! Because it's explicitly a disposable soldier mans simulator. Where the combatants asking "Why are we stuck fighting geists who can ignore mundane armor?.. Yes, I know they have incredibly low HP, that's beside the point" is guilt free compared to trying to justify it to a tabletop group. Which is where this old song and dance comes in. EDIT: Man, now I'm imagining a "Like DARKSOULS" game but they only steal all the cool QoL parts people take for granted. So nobody realizes you are stealing from Darksouls for ages. "Man, this hunk of petrified wood we found that leaks magical weapon buffing sap is great!" "I also like this old tea kettle that fills itself with a few uses worth of healing potion whenever we set camp" "Guys, guys! I found a black iron shield! We might not be hosed against the drake we were hired to fight." "...Wait a minute... Is this a Darksouls rip off?" "But the GM isn't actively loving with us" "Right, must be a coincidence." "Cool! An axe that turns into a halberd! Now I have a cool weapon like the Rogue's sword cane whip." "...Okay, but seriously." Section Z fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Oct 22, 2018 |
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Oct 22, 2018 20:18
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I'm considering going to a D&D Adventurer's League thing in Chicago tonight, but I've only actially played 5e like twice, and don't have any of my stuff because it's all still in boxes. Should I go, or wait until next week when I'm better prepared? Edit: I can buy dice easily enough, and I could probably theoretically print a sheet at the library and hammer out a character. I remember in Pathfinder Society games, the loaner characters always sucked.
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Oct 22, 2018 20:31
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Honestly a "low magic setting" should also have very rare monstrosities and weapon-resistant enemies. The whole point of a low magic setting is the gritty, brutal reality of a whole world of rear end in a top hat martials beating the poo poo out of each other. The odd werewolf should be a whole story arc. Of course that's not what people usually mean when they "low magic."
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Oct 22, 2018 20:32
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PMush Perfect posted:I'm considering going to a D&D Adventurer's League thing in Chicago tonight, but I've only actially played 5e like twice, and don't have any of my stuff because it's all still in boxes. Should I go, or wait until next week when I'm better prepared? Just go. The entire point is to be prepared for newbies who have never played before.
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Oct 22, 2018 20:32
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Piell posted:Just go back to expected gold by level. Give a list of magic items, say you can have X amount at each character level. They didn't realize that people were sick of the 3.5E and 4E treadmill of filling 12 slots with the Correct magic items, not magic items in general. But people LIKED being able to know what magic items they were expected to have access to and having some kind of way of buying and selling them. Having three (or whatever) as the standard, in 5E is a good feature, but they should be more character-defining and more reliable, not less. The leveled magic items from Weapons of Legacy seems to be the feel they were going for in 5E, it's a real shame that they dropped that and the Book of Nine Swords, which seem like exactly what would fit in 5E.
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Oct 22, 2018 20:33
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Toshimo posted:Just go. The entire point is to be prepared for newbies who have never played before.
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Oct 22, 2018 20:33
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PMush Perfect posted:Are there just loaner/example characters? I have concepts I'd wanna try or at least have some kind of continuity with my elfwoman or whatever. There are some pre-gens here: http://dndadventurersleague.org/tag/pregens/ I'm sure there are more but I haven't looked in a while.
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Oct 22, 2018 20:41
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I think I’d like to try a no magic all martial campaign. Well more like a mini-campaign because it would probably only be viable/fun in tier one play.
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Oct 22, 2018 20:44
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A martial only game where monster hunting is based around prep time, strategy, and one hell of a toolbox sounds like a blast, tbh.
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Oct 22, 2018 20:59
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koreban posted:I can appreciate a well-thought and well-researched post like this, but I’ll point out that you completely missed the point and scope of the original post. I’d be interested to see whether that’s actually the case, especially once you get into monsters appropriate for Tier 2 characters (i.e., when they would typically start having access to magic weapons). I’m aware of the table of resistances, immunities, and vulnerabilities, but that breaks down on a by-damage-type basis, not a by-monster basis. It’d be interesting to see one that broke things down like “A out of X CR 1-5 creatures have mundane resist/invulnerability, B out of Y CR 6-10, C out of Z CR 11-15” etc. I also don’t have a DMG handy, but I’d also be interested what, if any, guidance it gives DMs on this. It’s all well and good to note that bounded accuracy means magic weapons are optional to keep up on to-hit, but you tell DMs that “magic weapons are optional in this system,” and if most higher level enemies have resistance/immunity to mundane damage, then the DMG really needs to clearly explain the implications and adjustments DMs should consider if they decide not to include magic weapons in their game. Again, I’m genuinely curious. I don’t know how the numbers break out, nor can I look up right now what, if any, guidance the DMG gives on forgoing magical weapons.
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Oct 22, 2018 21:05
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Gharbad the Weak posted:The vast majority of games called low magic are more like removing magic items, but full spellcasting. There also might be slow leveling. i've been building a setting where the players are taken from an extremely high magic world and thrown through a one way portal into a series of antimagical prison caves (inspired by the exile/avernum series of games) i didnt want to mess with actual progression, but instead the players choose their domain or patron or whatever like normal and upon being thrown into the prison they lose contact with the source of their powers and are given a new temporary kit and spell slot recovery (and sorc point recovery) is halved. instead of those penalties, wizards get a different restrictions (no starting spellbook, no spells on level other than cantrips, and scrolls are hard to find), but can benefit from single use magical residues and organs and whatnot which can be used to add at least one spell to the wizard's spellbook (or just used as a single shot magic item). they also exclusively get some of the new spells i'm throwing together also since nobody's pushing wagonloads of proper military equipment to fantasy cave jail, i also recalibrated the curve so the terrible stone tipped spears that are ubiquitous down there are +0 PHB spears and proper surface steel is equivalent to nonmagical +3. getting back to the PHB 'baseline' power curve is an overarching goal for all classes
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Oct 22, 2018 21:10
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The Bee posted:A martial only game where monster hunting is based around prep time, strategy, and one hell of a toolbox sounds like a blast, tbh. So, The Witcher?
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Oct 22, 2018 21:12
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Network42 posted:So, The Witcher? I was thinking Monster Hunter.
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Oct 22, 2018 21:14
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Toshimo posted:There are some pre-gens here: http://dndadventurersleague.org/tag/pregens/
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Oct 22, 2018 21:23
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PMush Perfect posted:I guess I can use one and then make it my own somehow? I dunno, I just wanna be able to emotionally invest in my elfgame. Yeah. You can also just use it as a base and edit it.
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Oct 22, 2018 21:42
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MonsterEnvy posted:I was thinking Monster Hunter. If you can stat out a charge blade I'll play this game
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Oct 22, 2018 21:50
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MonsterEnvy posted:I was thinking Monster Hunter. Both? Both.
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Oct 22, 2018 21:55
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fog boar posted:I think we can safely state that at least +1 magic weapons were fairly common, and that they were intended as a sort of class feature of fighting-men in the form of treasure, in the same way that scrolls, spell books, and wands were class features of magic-users in the form of treasure. I've come to believe this is an element of the "arsenal" phase of OD&D play, where the PCs accumulate a collection of magical items that changes the nature of the game. This arsenal phase lies in the middle of campaigning, between the earliest dungeon delving by normal types, and the later investment of treasure into strongholds and domain play. Importantly, the monsters that are most typically invulnerable to normal types, or to normal weapons, are those that are present usually in the deeper levels of megadungeons, and in the wilderness. The notion that the arsenal of the arsenal phase is somehow purely optional seems entirely foreign both from the perspective of the text and from reports of play during that era. fog boar posted:When we consider that a monster might be invulnerable to normal weapons, we should also consider that those monsters ought to have some comparably mundane vulnerability that the PCs can discover through environmental clues, experimentation, investigation, and rumor. Further, the notion that monsters that are invulnerable to mundane weapons are at the same time vulnerable to the weaker spells should be questioned. There simply isn't the equivalent of a level 1 magic-user in Chainmail, and the more potent combat spells carry with them the risk of destroying treasure (a fireball melts gold and ignites tapestries, etc. and it presents a hazard of spreading in a confined space to damage you and your allies, or a lightning bolt can rebound; it's an overkill option that's supposed to involve risk in application). Chainmail and OD&D suggest a kind of level-gating of engagement through combat, creating a strategic pressure to avoid, trick, or negotiate with the monster, or entice another NPC or monster to deal with it for you at some cost. Invulnerability to normal types or normal weapons also means the DM can use a monster as an obstacle that can't be overrun by a train of mundane hirelings (provided you could lead them to the fight, and that they don't break and run, don't get nabbed by lurking monsters on the way, and so on). The idea that overkill might destroy the treasure, and that in-world investigation might be necessary for a character to learn about the nature of an obstacle both seem to have fallen aside with WotC's drive to do whatever they thought they were doing with 3e. The Bee posted:A martial only game where monster hunting is based around prep time, strategy, and one hell of a toolbox sounds like a blast, tbh.
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Oct 22, 2018 21:57
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Anyone know a fun feywild one shot other than Into the Feywild or that recent monk one that's weird with onis and poo poo? I'll probably do one myself but if there's quality out there, I'd look
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Oct 22, 2018 22:01
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Nehru the Damaja posted:Anyone know a fun feywild one shot other than Into the Feywild or that recent monk one that's weird with onis and poo poo? Faerie Fire has a cool one-shot module and the other source material + monsters are dope.
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Oct 22, 2018 22:08
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Hah I should have specified that one too. I'm gonna fold that into a larger campaign but want a short one off thing as like an interest check
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Oct 22, 2018 22:10
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The idea that the system math only encompasses the literal +1/-1 bits of actual mathematical comparison is weird. There are many tangible things that can be mathematically represented in the system that aren't literal 'math' (jfc would you argue that damage resistance/immunities aren't part of the system math? a fireball's gonna do the same thing, mathematically, to something with fire immunity as it would without? or does this change the math?) and that's the cop-out MonsterEnvy and co seem to be using to go, "Ah-ha! But it's not technically this one definition of math, so my assertion that the system math doesn't require magical items to interface with the magical item requirements of certain parts of the system is technically true in some way!" And that's really annoying. And it's just wrong, because the statement being defended wasn't "The literal mathematical equations do not require the existence of magical weapons." Even if MonsterEnvy said (after being unable to defend his first point) that it was his point later. No one cares if the calculation to hit an AC doesn't require magic weapons to exist because that's a dumb misdirection of the argument. And even if that was the actual argument, it's a stupid one like I mentioned above because things besides calculations are part of system math - and immunities are right there in the system 'math' the same way resistances and vulnerabilities are. These are things the system math encompasses because they influence the system math! Your math is altered by them being there, they're part of the system! How is this a difficult concept?
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Oct 22, 2018 22:42
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MonsterEnvy posted:I was thinking Monster Hunter. Now's a good a time as any to post this: https://www.reddit.com/r/MonsterHunter/comments/884k57/144_page_dd_monster_hunter_monster_manual/
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Oct 22, 2018 22:47
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CuddlyZombie posted:Now's a good a time as any to post this: https://www.reddit.com/r/MonsterHunter/comments/884k57/144_page_dd_monster_hunter_monster_manual/ Ha this rules. It's surprisingly well done mastershakeman fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Oct 22, 2018 |
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Oct 22, 2018 22:51
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Darwinism posted:The idea that the system math only encompasses the literal +1/-1 bits of actual mathematical comparison is weird. There are many tangible things that can be mathematically represented in the system that aren't literal 'math' (jfc would you argue that damage resistance/immunities aren't part of the system math? a fireball's gonna do the same thing, mathematically, to something with fire immunity as it would without? or does this change the math?) and that's the cop-out MonsterEnvy and co seem to be using to go, "Ah-ha! But it's not technically this one definition of math, so my assertion that the system math doesn't require magical items to interface with the magical item requirements of certain parts of the system is technically true in some way!" I was just trying to say that it's a technically true thing that the items are not needed. Not that it's good or anything. I agree you should have access to magic weapons and such. Like I am not trying to make an argument out of it. It's also technically true that you don't need weapons to deal with creatures with immunites to mundane weapons. There are a handful of other ways to deal with them, but those way tend to obtuse and or leave some of the other players out of the fun, so it's much better just to let them have magic weapons. CuddlyZombie posted:Now's a good a time as any to post this: https://www.reddit.com/r/MonsterHunter/comments/884k57/144_page_dd_monster_hunter_monster_manual/ This is indeed cool. MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 23:05 on Oct 22, 2018 |
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Oct 22, 2018 22:59
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