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Kaysette posted:Faerie Fire has a cool one-shot module and the other source material + monsters are dope. Got my hardcover in today. It's neat
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Oct 23, 2018 00:18
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ReapersTouch posted:Got my hardcover in today. It's neat Oh nice! I only have the pdf but I wish I’d sprung for the physical copy.
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Oct 23, 2018 00:29
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MonsterEnvy posted:I was just trying to say that it's a technically true thing that the items are not needed. Not that it's good or anything. I agree you should have access to magic weapons and such. Like I am not trying to make an argument out of it. So if you are the correct class or have the correct classes in your party magical weapons are not required, and this means that magical weapons are not required! But if you're not the correct class or don't have the correct classes in your party.... never you mind, don't pay attention to this situation that the system does nothing to prevent, magical weapons are still not required because for other party compositions they aren't required! This is logic
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Oct 23, 2018 01:35
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Providence served up some irony today. Crawford was on DNDBeyond’s lovely weekly show and I was in need of background talking this afternoon so I put it on. Listening to Crawford talk about his approach to rules and explicit versus implicit descriptions is relevant to the recent discussions here. https://youtu.be/EG6KZLcEp4M
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Oct 23, 2018 02:02
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Darwinism posted:So if you are the correct class or have the correct classes in your party magical weapons are not required, and this means that magical weapons are not required! Yeah it's true in the technical sense. That is all I am saying. Like I feel you are not getting what I am saying. MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 03:03 on Oct 23, 2018 |
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Oct 23, 2018 03:01
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Splicer posted:Also by extension why can't a fighter or a rogue learn pack tactics. That's a good point, I'd forgotten all the NPCs with NPC-only bullshit fighting styles you can't learn. Should be able to do that honestly. However, "this one orc" is not a character class. Sure your wizard can't learn the druid spell, but Jenny's druid could.
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Oct 23, 2018 03:09
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:That's a good point, I'd forgotten all the NPCs with NPC-only bullshit fighting styles you can't learn. Should be able to do that honestly. I would say get enough training by Kobold's and you can learn pack tactics.
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Oct 23, 2018 03:24
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MonsterEnvy posted:Yeah it's true in the technical sense. That is all I am saying. Like I feel you are not getting what I am saying. Because instead of going, "Haha, man, I made a stupid statement when I said that magical items were optional," you're taking the bullshit pedant approach of, "Well you see technically I am not wrong if all of these things (that do not have to be true) are true, why does anyone have a problem with me shifting the goalposts this far, I do not understand"
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Oct 23, 2018 03:27
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Darwinism posted:Because instead of going, "Haha, man, I made a stupid statement when I said that magical items were optional," you're taking the bullshit pedant approach of, "Well you see technically I am not wrong if all of these things (that do not have to be true) are true, why does anyone have a problem with me shifting the goalposts this far, I do not understand" I am not trying to shift the goal posts. "Well you see technically I am right if all of these things (that do not have to be true) are true" Has been my stance for the whole argument. Magic Items are not needed in the strictest sense, But you should be able to get them, as not being able to get them makes everything less fun. Is all I am trying to say. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 23, 2018 03:31
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4e assumed magic items as part of its math (then brought in inherent bonuses as an alternative). 5e doesn't do that, is what i understand ME to be saying.
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Oct 23, 2018 03:47
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dreadmojo posted:4e assumed magic items as part of its math (then brought in inherent bonuses as an alternative). 5e doesn't do that, is what i understand ME to be saying. Yeah, I'm not getting why people are acting all wound up. Your +5 to hit and damage come from maxing out your main attack stat, anything other than that is gravy. It's an entirely different subject compared to the whole monsters with bullshit immunities thing. Though ME gave a clever example of getting around it that one of his players used to amazing effect. I kind of wish that immunity was countered by silvering a weapon on most if not all creatures which have it really. That suggests enough preparation to know what you're going to be dealing with.
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Oct 23, 2018 03:57
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:That's a good point, I'd forgotten all the NPCs with NPC-only bullshit fighting styles you can't learn. Should be able to do that honestly. I guess they were not confident in being the go to "Ambush players without aquatic combat friendly weapons (and command sharks like aqua man)" prank enemy already.
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Oct 23, 2018 04:04
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Arthil posted:I kind of wish that immunity was countered by silvering a weapon on most if not all creatures which have it really. That suggests enough preparation to know what you're going to be dealing with. Well there is no penalty for silvering your weapon. If you don't have a magic item, silvering some of your stuff should be done just to be safe. Section Z posted:That reminds me how Sahuagin in 5th ed straight up have advantage on every single melee attack roll on targets below max HP. Well it's cause they are sharkmen and like blood.
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Oct 23, 2018 04:27
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:That's a good point, I'd forgotten all the NPCs with NPC-only bullshit fighting styles you can't learn. Should be able to do that honestly. Pack Tactics is the NPC designation of Flanking.
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Oct 23, 2018 05:01
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Arthil posted:Yeah, I'm not getting why people are acting all wound up. Your +5 to hit and damage come from maxing out your main attack stat, anything other than that is gravy. Your proficiency modifier that scales to character level, not class level, is also relevant to this calculation. Arguably, it’s the more important part of the function as it’s the baseline for progression as dictated by the system’s math. The ability score and choice of attack type are wildly variable and subject to player interference. quote:It's an entirely different subject compared to the whole monsters with bullshit immunities thing. Though ME gave a clever example of getting around it that one of his players used to amazing effect.  ~Natural Language~ but basically if things have resistance *or* immunity to non-magical weapons, you can silver your weapon for 100gp to overcome that resistance or immunity. The Clay Golem example listed before is a rare exception that requires an adamantine non-magical weapon to pierce it’s immunity, however as it is a CR9 creature, it’s very likely that the players will have had ample opportunity to equip themselves appropriately for an encounter like that by 9th level. But exceptions, if rare, don’t break the system. They are interesting non-standard challenges and should be viewed as such.
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Oct 23, 2018 05:12
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koreban posted:Pack Tactics is the NPC designation of Flanking. Flanking isn't in the rules by default.
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Oct 23, 2018 05:30
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MonsterEnvy posted:I am not trying to shift the goal posts. we all get what you're saying it's just that what you're saying is stupid. yes if you follow the right conditions and circumstances then magic items are optional but if you follow the right conditions and circumstances every rule in the game is optional so it's loving pointless to say.
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Oct 23, 2018 05:37
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gradenko_2000 posted:Flanking isn't in the rules by default. . . I think that's the point he was making.
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Oct 23, 2018 05:44
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E: nope
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Oct 23, 2018 05:54
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koreban posted:Your proficiency modifier that scales to character level, not class level, is also relevant to this calculation. Arguably, it’s the more important part of the function as it’s the baseline for progression as dictated by the system’s math. The ability score and choice of attack type are wildly variable and subject to player interference. Well, while I can't read what you linked I checked in the book myself to be sure. It specifically says that some which have resistance or immunity are susceptible, and this is shown on specific monster stat blocks like all werecreatures, and maybe one or two types of undead like Wraiths. They really should have stretched that out to include others. I've not encountered anything that is weak to silver in my entire time playing.
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Oct 23, 2018 05:56
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koreban posted:The Clay Golem example listed before is a rare exception that requires an adamantine non-magical weapon to pierce it’s immunity, however as it is a CR9 creature, it’s very likely that the players will have had ample opportunity to equip themselves appropriately for an encounter like that by 9th level. Please tell me why it is very likely the players will have had opportunity to equip themselves appropriately, including pertinent page numbers for how the game encourages this preparation to happen for every group that might encounter a clay golem because somehow I missed this very likely thing in what's written!
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Oct 23, 2018 07:42
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Assume you get 1 treasure hoard at levels 1 and 2 and 3 per level thereafter, and are randomly rolling. What are the chances of a party of 4 having a single adamantium weapon by level 9?
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Oct 23, 2018 07:53
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But, you don't need an adamantine weapon? Just a magic one.
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Oct 23, 2018 08:02
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A Clay Golem is worth 5,000 XP. The earliest possible time that you could introduce a monster of that XP value against a four-person party would be level 6: a level 6 character has a Deadly encounter budget of 1,400 XP, so four of them could "buy" a Clay Golem, since the total Deadly encounter budget for the party would be 5,600 XP. _______ It would probably be more reasonable to see a Clay Golem at around level 11: a level 11 character has a Medium encounter budget of 1,600 XP, so four of them could "buy" a Clay Golem, since the total Medium encounter budget for the party would be 6,400 XP. (a level 10 party would be a little too low, with a total encounter budget of 4,800 XP for Medium encounters) _______ A "Weapon +1" is classified as an "uncommon" item. In the Starting Equipment sub-table in page 38 of the DMG, you can start with a single uncommon magic item if you're starting at the level 11 to 16 range, and it's a "Low Magic" or "Standard" campaign. If it's a "High Magic" campaign, you start with one uncommon magic item as early as the level 5 to 10 range. _______ Alternatively, one might say that since a Weapon +1 shows up in Magic Table F, and since Magic Table F will show up in the treasure tables by as early as the first possible encounters, that over the course of however many encounters it takes to get to level 6 (or level 11), that you'll have rolled on the treasure tables enough times to get the Table F results, and for the Table F results to yield a Weapon +1. 12% chance to get a Table F result on the CR 0 to 4 treasure tables 14% chance to get a Table F result on the CR 5 to 10 treasure tables 15% chance to get a Weapon +1 result on Table F itself. It's going to take a bit more math to check how likely a party is going to beat those odds before reaching level 6 or so.
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Oct 23, 2018 08:06
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Darwinism posted:Please tell me why it is very likely the players will have had opportunity to equip themselves appropriately, including pertinent page numbers for how the game encourages this preparation to happen for every group that might encounter a clay golem because somehow I missed this very likely thing in what's written! Your understanding and expectations of 5e as a specific and explicit game structure that provides a choreographed progression for players to follow given exacting disbursement of equipment at exacting intervals is not one shared by the rules writers. I highly recommend you watch the interview with Crawford I liked earlier today for insights on his design intent and framework methodology because I think you’re expecting something that 5e was designed specifically not to be. Probably why you’re so angsty about it.
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Oct 23, 2018 08:17
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Toshimo posted:But, you don't need an adamantine weapon? Just a magic one. I just read koreban's post. That's what they said was needed. Didn't check it myself.
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Oct 23, 2018 08:21
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Also consider that it needn't be a +1 weapon, so the math would be a little higher for the possibility of things like a Weapon of Warning/Trident of Fish Command/Javelin of Lightning etc. On the topic of magical items. Are there any tables made, whether official or likely unofficial, which pools all the available items together? The one issue with using the random tables from the DMG and Xanathar's is that you don't have stuff from any of the adventures or other resources included which you might want if doing a homebrew game. And man... yikes, I can kinda see why the arguments went on so long when a bit in Xanathar's for the magical item list says "if you have no casters, no monks, and no NPCs that can cast magic weapon".
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Oct 23, 2018 08:22
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AlphaDog posted:I just read koreban's post. That's what they said was needed. Didn't check it myself. I'll admit his wording wasn't entirely clear, but his statement was actually "things with mundane resistance can be hurt by silver, except clay golems that require adamantine". Of course, all of the above can be hurt by magic weapons.
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Oct 23, 2018 08:29
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koreban posted:Your understanding and expectations of 5e as a specific and explicit game structure that provides a choreographed progression for players to follow given exacting disbursement of equipment at exacting intervals is not one shared by the rules writers. Please, just for me, elaborate what you think my understanding and expectations of 5E are. I mean you think I think it's a 'choreographed progression' because... I criticize the game for including impossible-to-kill monsters unless the players know to do the right things? So I'm just fascinated here. Tell me what you think I'm thinking.
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Oct 23, 2018 08:55
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Toshimo posted:I'll admit his wording wasn't entirely clear, but his statement was actually "things with mundane resistance can be hurt by silver, except clay golems that require adamantine". Of course, all of the above can be hurt by magic weapons. koreban posted:Your understanding and expectations of 5e as a specific and explicit game structure that provides a choreographed progression for players to follow given exacting disbursement of equipment at exacting intervals is not one shared by the rules writers. This is not being said as a "Wizards!  " rant, it's an example of the tunnel vision design present throughout 5e. The complaint isn't that 5e is a game without reliable item distribution, the complaint is that if 5e is intended to be a game without reliable item distribution it's extremely bad at it. It includes many features that only make sense in the either the context of assumed reliable item distribution or the context of a system with a much stronger narrative toolset. Jeremy Crawford didn't design a game that does not assume reliable item distribution, they designed a game that assumes reliable item distribution, took the reliable item distribution out, then said "job done" and moved on.See also their approach to theatre of the mind combat.
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Oct 23, 2018 09:17
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Follow-up: An average encounter for a level 1 party is four monsters of CR 1/8 each, and each player will earn 25 XP from that one encounter. Getting to level 2 requires 300 XP, so it's going to take 12 encounters to get to level 2 Applying this method: * Getting from level 2 to level 3: Average encounter is four monsters of CR 1/4 each, yielding 50 XP per encounter, needing 12 encounters to level up * Getting from level 3 to level 4: Average encounter is four monsters of CR 1/2 each, yielding 100 XP per encounter, needing 18 encounters to level up * Getting from level 4 to level 5: Average encounter is four monsters of CR 1/2 each, yielding 100 XP per encounter, needing 38 encounters to level up * Getting from level 5 to level 6: Average encounter is four monsters of CR 1 each, yielding 200 XP per encounter, needing 37.5 encounters to level up All told, that's 117 (rounded-down) encounters before hitting level 6. All of these encounters would be using the CR 0 to 5 treasure tables, which have a 12% chance of yielding loot from the Magic Item Table F, so on average, we can expect Table F to be rolled-on some 14 times over the course of all of these encounters. Table F itself has a 15% chance of yielding a Weapon +1, so we can then expect that a Weapon +1 would come up twice in the course of the 14 Table F rolls. The chances are a little higher if you start including things like a Javelin of Lightning or a Trident of Fish Command. The chances are going to be lower if you start using higher-level encounters against the party, because they're going to level-up faster, but your treasure tables aren't going to be any better until/unless you start dipping into the CR 5+ tables.
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Oct 23, 2018 09:19
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gradenko_2000 posted:Table F itself has a 15% chance of yielding a Weapon +1, so we can then expect that a Weapon +1 would come up twice in the course of the 14 Table F rolls. One of the reasons I asked is that when "but the party will definitely have the right stuff" comes up, all I think about is the time i played in a game from levels 1-8 where we openly rolled random treasures, and not one single time did anyone get a magic weapon. We did get more than 1 +1 armour each though. Looks like that's not as horribly unlucky as we all thought it was. I mean, it's obviously unlucky, but it's way more likely to happen than rolling an 18 on 3d6, right?
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Oct 23, 2018 09:37
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AlphaDog posted:One of the reasons I asked is that when "but the party will definitely have the right stuff" comes up, all I think about is the time i played in a game from levels 1-8 where we openly rolled random treasures, and not one single time did anyone get a magic weapon. We did get more than 1 +1 armour each though. The main obstacle is (perhaps obviously) going to be whether people play-out the 117 encounters at all, since I would expect that most people play much more abbreviated games for practicality's sake. But I would agree that it's not quite that bad even if you did everything by the book, especially since you're probably not going to encounter the CR 9 Clay Golem until much much later (level 11), which skews the probabilities even harder towards having the right weapons by the time that you need them.
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Oct 23, 2018 09:43
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gradenko_2000 posted:Follow-up: they roll treasure on the individual encounter table, not hoard treasure table
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Oct 23, 2018 12:26
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I'm jumping into a tomb of annihilation campaign. I'm deciding between a level 3 oath of devotion or ancients paladin and a level 3 moon druid. Our party comp is 2 fighters(dwarf and lizardman), high elf wizard, and halfling rogue. Which do you folk think would be a better fit? RC Cola fucked around with this message at 15:11 on Oct 23, 2018 |
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Oct 23, 2018 13:55
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RC Cola posted:I'm jumping into a tomb of annihilation campaign. I'm deciding between a level 3 oath of devotion or ancients paladin and a level 3 moon druid. I don't know how far that campaign goes, but if it goes a few levels past 6 I think a paladin is pretty important to a party because the +cha mod to saves messes with the system math provided you pump it up. It's also possibly the best overall stabby class bar homebrewed stuff.
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Oct 23, 2018 15:41
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Has anyone played any of the MtG/D&D crossovers for NEXT? Do you generally need a DMG and PHB as well to run those campaigns well? A friend wants me to run a campaign of the upcoming Ravnica book, and I haven't DM'd 5e yet at all.
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Oct 23, 2018 15:58
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Skyl3lazer posted:Has anyone played any of the MtG/D&D crossovers for NEXT? Do you generally need a DMG and PHB as well to run those campaigns well? A friend wants me to run a campaign of the upcoming Ravnica book, and I haven't DM'd 5e yet at all. The MTG crossovers are setting books, so you still need the PHB for the rules. You don't really need the DMG to play, because it's mostly for content generation and variant rules. You might still want the Monster Manual. You can try running the game with just the free Basic Rules PDFs, if you don't mind only having one (and usually the worst) archetypes per class. You can even tap d20srd for all the other classes, but again only with one archetype available.
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Oct 23, 2018 16:07
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RC Cola posted:I'm jumping into a tomb of annihilation campaign. I'm deciding between a level 3 oath of devotion or ancients paladin and a level 3 moon druid. Zeal's right in that a paladin will go a very long way in utility because of all the saves you'll be responsible for your party members suddenly making. Later in the campaign, failing saves will outright kill you with no recourse.
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Oct 23, 2018 16:43
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SettingSun posted:Zeal's right in that a paladin will go a very long way in utility because of all the saves you'll be responsible for your party members suddenly making. Later in the campaign, failing saves will outright kill you with no recourse. Okay, I'm sticking with my paladin. Any advice on which oath to go with? I've never played a paladin before so this is all pretty new for me.
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Oct 23, 2018 16:53
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