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GreyjoyBastard posted:this is, incidentally, part of why Guyovich decided to permit some level of USPOLchat in Trump thread What the hell is wrong with you
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Oct 24, 2018 12:12
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VitalSigns posted:The Centre Party in Weimar Germany voted to give Hitler the power to ban political parties because they thought once the Social Democrats and Communists were outlawed the Centre would get all the votes. While it's true for that guy, a lot of the Centre leaders didn't make it through the night of long knives. I guess every Democrat believes they are a Kaas who is allowed to leave and not the people left behind to get killed.
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Oct 24, 2018 13:07
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Radish posted:Apparently Cruz is ripping off Trump's greatest hits and saying we need to lock Beto up at his lame rally but yeah it's the voters that are the problem. They think it's all a game. They think that the GOP leaders, at least, are just saying that poo poo to get elected and have no intention of actually doing it. Don't forget Hillary with her "public position" and "private position" remarks. And so far, "lock her up" hasn't amounted to anything, so they're probably thinking that they were right and that Trump never had any intention of actually doing it.
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Oct 24, 2018 17:15
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I feel like a paranoid old man, but I'm genuinely fearful of what the Republicans might do if the Democrats do well this election. Trump has already been working on de-legitimizing any election he doesn't win, and the Republicans are very, very clearly along for the ride on whatever he wants to do. It's loving terrifying.
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Oct 24, 2018 17:32
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Thanatosian posted:I feel like a paranoid old man, but I'm genuinely fearful of what the Republicans might do if the Democrats do well this election. It's not like the Dems have exactly been graceful losers. It's kind of rich to worry about the other side delegitimizing elections when the Dems are insisting the election was rigged by the Russians, which is just the latest in a long line of hairbrained schemes to dethrone a fairly elected president.
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Oct 24, 2018 17:43
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Main Paineframe posted:It's not like the Dems have exactly been graceful losers. It's kind of rich to worry about the other side delegitimizing elections when the Dems are insisting the election was rigged by the Russians, which is just the latest in a long line of hairbrained schemes to dethrone a fairly elected president. I mean Donald Trump isn’t a fairly elected president, but that has more to do with the Electoral College than the Russian government.
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Oct 24, 2018 17:46
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Main Paineframe posted:It's not like the Dems have exactly been graceful losers. It's kind of rich to worry about the other side delegitimizing elections when the Dems are insisting the election was rigged by the Russians, which is just the latest in a long line of hairbrained schemes to dethrone a fairly elected president. Sounds like those guys could use a little more decorum
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Oct 24, 2018 17:57
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Flavahbeast posted:Sounds like those guys could use a little more decorum more like they should stop cooking up half-baked conspiracy theories to explain their losses, and actually try to connect with voters instead
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Oct 24, 2018 17:59
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i mean, dems could probably continue with their "russia hacked the minds of the populace" bs, but they should at least be consistent when they are doing it. saying trump's a russian stooge and then voting to give him more surveillance power, more money to fight whatever wars he wants, and offering to build his wall is just really dissonant
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Oct 24, 2018 18:03
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Condiv posted:more like they should stop cooking up half-baked conspiracy theories to explain their losses, and actually try to connect with voters instead All they have to do is vote for the Democrats and they’ll see that the party apparatus will finally notice them!
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Oct 24, 2018 18:03
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Unfortunately the Dem leadership is boomers and they are absolutely unable to see the reality of the modern world, it's eternally 1979 and the drat taxes are too high!
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Oct 24, 2018 18:10
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Condiv posted:more like they should stop cooking up half-baked conspiracy theories to explain their losses, and actually try to connect with voters instead Is it really a conspiracy theory at this point? https://twitter.com/BernieSanders/status/966457373111005184 Obviously it's not the only reason Trump won, and I think it's crass to blame Russia as a whole when most of them couldn't care less about US politics, but there are absolutely people in the Russian adminstration who are working to bolster right wing groups in the US and elsewhere. It's not nothing
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Oct 24, 2018 18:22
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Thanatosian posted:I feel like a paranoid old man, but I'm genuinely fearful of what the Republicans might do if the Democrats do well this election. I’m much more fearful of what they would do if the Dems don’t do well.
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Oct 24, 2018 18:22
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The Kingfish posted:I’m much more fearful of what they would do if the Dems don’t do well. The ultimate nightmare scenario is that Dems do well but fail to govern, again.
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Oct 24, 2018 18:27
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I’m fully expecting Ted Cruz to defeat Beto and the media cycle getting distracted about this for 3 months while whoever controls the house deregulated more and cuts more taxes.
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Oct 24, 2018 18:31
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Flavahbeast posted:Obviously it's not the only reason Trump won, and I think it's crass to blame Russia as a whole when most of them couldn't care less about US politics, but there are absolutely people in the Russian adminstration who are working to bolster right wing groups in the US and elsewhere. It's not nothing The problem, by my estimation, is not that it’s nothing or that Trump isn’t in bed with the Russian mob at bare minimum. It’s something and he manifestly is, everyone in real estate at his level is. It’s that the way it’s contextualized and deployed as an attack is deflective and used to further a milquetoast liberal agenda of “Trump is uniquely bad and an Other” rather than any kind of systemic leftist critique.
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Oct 24, 2018 18:31
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:The ultimate nightmare scenario is that Dems do well but fail to govern, again. Honestly all they have to do in the House is NOT work with Trump to do any stupid austerity bullshit for two years and get their names in "Pelosi voted to SLASH YOUR MEDICARE!!" attack ads that aren't lying but they are stupid as hell so I figure they can't help themselves.
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Oct 24, 2018 18:34
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Frightening Knight posted:The problem, by my estimation, is not that it’s nothing or that Trump isn’t in bed with the Russian mob at bare minimum. It’s something and he manifestly is, everyone in real estate at his level is. America doesn’t have a left wing large enough to truly challenge the economic status quo. Anyone serious about that stuff gets drowned out by the cavalcade of pussy hats and whatever other flavour of IDpol is in vogue this month. It’s embarassing honestly. All I’ve ever wanted was a uniform power bloc of people with a list of demands and strict organization the way the republicans fall into line behind trump. Instead we bicker amongst ourselves about our favourite pronoun when we have been losing (have lost) the class struggle for 40 years. What do I get instead? Elizabeth Warren talking about her DNA tests to prove native ancestry. Are you serious? She’s as white as snow. The entire thing is loving ridiculous and a sign of how tone deaf and privileged the American elites are that they can claim solidarity with an oppressed group on the basis of some trace DNA diluted by many generations of whiteness. If we trace our origins far back enough we’re all from Africa. JFC. What’s it gonna take before this country smartens up and gives us another Roosevelt? When are we gonna break up these robber baron tech monopolies? At this point it seems the eventual heat death or the universe will happen sooner than a true left wing class struggle to restore what we have lost since the 70s.
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Oct 24, 2018 18:39
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trump likely wins without the russian poo poo which is why the hyper focus on it bugs me. they couldn’t have done what they did if our media wasn’t so useless and had created an environment where fake news could flourish.
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Oct 24, 2018 18:41
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Flavahbeast posted:Is it really a conspiracy theory at this point? when you have people screaming "russian bot!!" at everyone they disagree with without the slightest shred of evidence, ya you've delved into conspiracy theory territory quote:Obviously it's not the only reason Trump won, and I think it's crass to blame Russia as a whole when most of them couldn't care less about US politics, but there are absolutely people in the Russian adminstration who are working to bolster right wing groups in the US and elsewhere. It's not nothing everything we've seen points to it being nowhere near why trump won. the most obvious reasons trump won are related to clinton and her actions during the election, but russia is a convenient prop to distract from that and how worthless the dems are so people buy into that conspiracy theory
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Oct 24, 2018 18:48
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Kraftwerk posted:Anyone serious about that stuff gets drowned out by the cavalcade of pussy hats and whatever other flavour of IDpol is in vogue this month. It’s embarassing honestly. I don’t think it’s pussy hats or identity politics that are suppressing the left, friend, I think it’s the billions of dollars of donor money. But also I think recent left-wing organizing is encouraging, even if also not happening fast enough in relation to global warming.
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Oct 24, 2018 18:50
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the state of the left has less to do with "favorite pronouns" (gently caress you) and more to do with how any threat to capitalism is systematically targeted by the media, political and policing forces of the ruling elite
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Oct 24, 2018 18:50
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Stexils posted:the state of the left has less to do with "favorite pronouns" (gently caress you) and more to do with how any threat to capitalism is systematically targeted by the media, political and policing forces of the ruling elite So how do you win hearts and minds? I’ve battled conservatives on Facebook, in real life all the time and when it comes to economic debate I’ve realized that you can’t “out-logic” them. A conservative is a conservative because their moral foundation believes the poor and unskilled deserves to be that way and that poverty is punishment or motivation to become more skilled or better. You can’t beat this argument because it’s circular logic. If he worked hard for a 15 dollar wage and now that’s the new minimum wage they feel that’s unfair because someone else doesn’t need to work as hard as they did to get promoted there. So what do you do? How do you win them over? This is a society born from the Protestant work ethic. That’s a difficult thing to overcome. It’s super frustrating because every debate breaks down to that core idea that only those who work hard and produce have value. That if you get a benefit that didn’t previously exist and you had to work for is immoral because someone else worked for it. There’s a just world fallacy hidden in there and you’d need some major resources and social engineering only accessible to the rich to change people from this mindset.
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Oct 24, 2018 19:14
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Kraftwerk posted:So how do you win hearts and minds? There is one tactic that works but it doesn't work online: direct personal experience with the underprivileged. This is why a lot of WASPY elite schools used to require service work as a condition of graduation. Do a year working with prisoners or in homeless shelters etc. and their minds will change. This is why the gay marriage issue flipped so fast: everyone came out of the closet and a statistically determinative chunk of the bigots realized they had direct personal friends who were gay.
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Oct 24, 2018 19:18
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you dont win over conservatives, you win over everyone who isnt one. you also dont throw trans allies under the bus by telling them their issues dont matter.
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Oct 24, 2018 19:21
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the thing about consevatism is its not inherently a popular ideology, its only widespread through massive propoganda networks and disenfranchisement and even then can only get the support of 35 percent of the population, because it doesnt actually benefit anyone but the rich and bigots. you dont need the support of every fox news grandpa because they are outnumbered by the people who respond when you appeal to their direct material interests.
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Oct 24, 2018 19:26
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you don't really "win over" anyone. there are way more left or left-leaning people - you have to get them out to vote. it's a pure numbers game.
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Oct 24, 2018 19:26
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Frightening Knight posted:I don’t think it’s pussy hats or identity politics that are suppressing the left, friend, I think it’s the billions of dollars of donor money. I think it's more that stuff like the pussy hats and "identity politics" just isn't blocked because it doesn't really threaten those with power/wealth. Obviously you still have wealthy people who are bigoted, but ethnic/gender minorities don't inherently threaten anyone's wealth so it's not something that really characterizes the wealthy.
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Oct 24, 2018 19:29
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Ytlaya posted:I think it's more that stuff like the pussy hats and "identity politics" just isn't blocked because it doesn't really threaten those with power/wealth. Obviously you still have wealthy people who are bigoted, but ethnic/gender minorities don't inherently threaten anyone's wealth so it's not something that really characterizes the wealthy. I mean, yes, there is a place for criticism of neoliberal identity politics and tokenism. But I just felt that the way it was framed in that post was snide and unnecessarily hostile to minority issues. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Oct 24, 2018 19:30
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:There is one tactic that works but it doesn't work online: direct personal experience with the underprivileged. This is why a lot of WASPY elite schools used to require service work as a condition of graduation. Do a year working with prisoners or in homeless shelters etc. and their minds will change. This is why the gay marriage issue flipped so fast: everyone came out of the closet and a statistically determinative chunk of the bigots realized they had direct personal friends who were gay. Yeah, and I’ve had decent luck throwing Democrats under the bus (as they deserve) and talking to people about the real poo poo in their lives. Almost everyone has either an rear end in a top hat boss, blood-sucking landlord, or family member who is slowly dying from lack of healthcare. Commiserate about that poo poo in a way that gets in touch with their barely-suppressed anger, redirect that at the rich, and don’t talk down to people. Works better than I would have expected it to...
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Oct 24, 2018 19:31
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Groovelord Neato posted:you don't really "win over" anyone. there are way more left or left-leaning people - you have to get them out to vote. it's a pure numbers game. this isn't per se true, radicalization exists
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Oct 24, 2018 19:44
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Kobayashi posted:Yeah, and I’ve had decent luck throwing Democrats under the bus (as they deserve) and talking to people about the real poo poo in their lives. Almost everyone has either an rear end in a top hat boss, blood-sucking landlord, or family member who is slowly dying from lack of healthcare. Commiserate about that poo poo in a way that gets in touch with their barely-suppressed anger, redirect that at the rich, and don’t talk down to people. Works better than I would have expected it to... Ok on second thought I changed my mind. It’s not the left doubling down on IDPol. It’s the right. Because I know someone who could directly benefit from left wing policies. When I frame the argument in his context he thinks he can always get a better job than the one he has and he hits this almost delusional cognitive dissonance when he does get shafted by a right wing policy. When I propose universal healthcare for example he will oppose it on the basis of it being a bad idea in the American context. In other words he thinks it’s fine in countries with more homogenous populations. His reason for opposing it in america is that it could potentially lead to tax money being “wasted” on minorities and illegals accessing the healthcare system and raising his taxes. In other words in his eyes he’d rather let someone who isn’t him and his direct family die of cancer just to stick it to trans people looking to get hormone therapy or to deny care to someone crossing the border to get healthcare.
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Oct 24, 2018 19:46
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Yeah when people are denied local communities and relationships it's really easy for them to fall into nationalism
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Oct 24, 2018 19:48
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the right has always stoked up racism / nationalism / homophobia to sell itself to people who arent rich, this is by no means a recent development
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Oct 24, 2018 19:53
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Kraftwerk posted:Ok on second thought I changed my mind. Yeah idk what to do about the racists I know either. Right now I mentally file them as irredeemable, ignore their bullshit entirely, and try to spend my time talking to other people.
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Oct 24, 2018 19:54
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Centrist Democrats pump up idpol because they know it will get rich urbanites who have already got theirs to vote for them, even as they turn around and gently caress minorities, the poor, and rural voters.
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Oct 24, 2018 19:57
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KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:Centrist Democrats pump up idpol because they know it will get rich urbanites who have already got theirs to vote for them, even as they turn around and gently caress minorities, the poor, and rural voters. Well, the small town poor and rural voters wouldn't vote for Democrats anyways, because Democrats won't promise to magically bring back factories and coal, and that is all they want to hear.
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Oct 24, 2018 20:10
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https://twitter.com/TheOnion/status/1055161013828546561
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Oct 24, 2018 20:14
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Khisanth Magus posted:Well, the small town poor and rural voters wouldn't vote for Democrats anyways, because Democrats won't promise to magically bring back factories and coal, and that is all they want to hear. Well, I think a lot of them, more broadly, want jobs, and decent ones, like they had when unions existed and overwhelmingly supported democrats, and which no longer exist in part because of centrist Dems selling out unions and workers in favor of the professional class and finance sectors.
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Oct 24, 2018 20:15
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Also "go to this school you get a tax break to attend to do something you hate and MAYBE you can get a job if the specific industry comes to your area and the market doesn't become over saturated" is not the same as actually offering jobs.
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Oct 24, 2018 20:17
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