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JaySB posted:Pretty sure that depends on the level of human development before they transition. That’s not how skeletal muscle works. Without the correct hormonal environment, the biggest of bodybuilders would lose tons of muscle mass fairly fast. Assuming hormone therapy, my understanding is that m2f women tend to have an exaggerated estrogenic hormonal environment. The big unknown, again, is the time it takes at female hormone levels to drop the male muscle mass.
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Oct 24, 2018 21:14
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Lt. Shiny-sides, I always appreciate the extra scientific knowledge you bring.
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Oct 24, 2018 21:37
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The problem in the situation that I mentioned was that the person in question was legally a woman. So they can’t fight men, and can only fight women at a comp. It’s a situation that Amateur FightSports hasn’t really got a decent solution to yet. And from what I recall, Ms Moore had been tested for whatever male hormone it is the Olympics look for in transgender competitors and had less of the manly hormone than most women due to whatever she was taking to transition (if she ever reads this I’m sorry if I’m getting it wrong), so even the loving Olympics would’ve accepted her as being able to compete. I haven’t got any better solutions or ideas other than, like I said, add some more heavier weight classes for women. The main issue (in my eyes) is the rampant homo and transphobia. Wilson Junior kept deliberately calling her “him” and “a dude” publicly, which to me is one of the saddest things about Martial Arts in general. You hug dudes for a living, you don’t get to be weird about other people’s life choices.
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Oct 24, 2018 21:41
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Lt. Shiny-sides posted:That’s not how skeletal muscle works. Without the correct hormonal environment, the biggest of bodybuilders would lose tons of muscle mass fairly fast. Assuming hormone therapy, my understanding is that m2f women tend to have an exaggerated estrogenic hormonal environment. Comparing the extremes of body builders losing their peak mass is not really fair. No ones saying if you suppress Test and increase Estro that you won't get weaker and lose size, but comparatively to someone who has never had Test, you'll be a hell of a lot stronger. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-24730151 This is the kind of thing I was talking about.
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Oct 24, 2018 21:44
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kimbo305 posted:Lt. Shiny-sides, I always appreciate the extra scientific knowledge you bring. Hey thanks! willie_dee posted:Comparing the extremes of body builders losing their peak mass is not really fair. 1) Muscle is muscle, having more just makes for a clearer example (bodybuilding). 2) Women naturally have test, just less than men. 3) That is a great study that I haven’t seen before, but: - It is a single mouse study, who knows what this means for humans or if it will be repeatable. That doesn’t mean it is crap it always important to keep in mind. - They waited 3 months (10% of the mice’s life) before re-exposing the experimental group to training. That just reinforces my point as to how it is unknown how long a trans athlete needs hormone therapy before they compete. - It appears that the control group was not exposed to exercise before the final training exposure. It is unknown how the natural hormonal changes of training would effect those female mice during the final training exposure. This is extremely important (not for their study but for our conversation), as if there was little difference then the hormonal difference is moot. Anecdotally, every guy I’ve trained post steroids (3-5 years post) has been very much not like the juiced athletes I trained. I still stand by letting m2f trans athletes compete in female divisions, even if I’d like to see more research on the topic.
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Oct 24, 2018 22:07
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Good posting
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Oct 24, 2018 22:18
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Lt. Shiny-sides posted:Hey thanks! Completely agree, the study isn't perfect and the final answer, and I think I have seen other studies that back it up, but its point isn't that someone who has taken gear will perform as if they were on gear once they are off, its just that they will perform better than they would of done had they never taken gear in the first place. Joe Rogan talks about it a lot because of Falon Fox, and he has quoted bone density, fast twitch muscle fibers, etc etc, all being a thing that once you have, its going to stick around to some degree. I mean its not really a surprise at all that two people who had massive testosterone levels compared to their opponents for their life up until recently then went on to come first and second in the female division. It's a difficult situation and I wouldn't want anyone to feel bad because their gender doesn't match who they are competitive with. It also wouldn't be fair for them to have to compete with men now that they are on Testosterone blocking drugs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHqiG_hrbsc Theres also examples in the weight lifting like Laurel Hubbard. I am not the authority nor should my opinion count for anything when it comes to such sensitive issues, but I can't get passed the notion that having a boat load of test in your system, for many years, isn't a long term advantage.
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Oct 24, 2018 23:38
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Whatever Rogan says is not true
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Oct 24, 2018 23:39
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ICHIBAHN posted:Whatever Rogan says is not true I wouldn't go so far as to say Rogan is always wrong. I will say this, I become instantly very skeptical when my friends post poo poo him and Jocko say as it relates to anything outside of punch/hug man sports.
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Oct 24, 2018 23:45
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ICHIBAHN posted:Whatever Rogan says is not true Same, but with anything other people say as well. #StayWoke
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Oct 24, 2018 23:48
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Rogan not the single worst source for trans issues, but he's about as bad as it gets without being just openly hostile. He thinks he's all open and accepting, but he's also the guy who said that Cyborg Justino has a dick.
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Oct 25, 2018 00:29
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Pretty sure that's the stand up comedian making a dumb joke and not being serious. Unless you also think he believes the Kardashians are real demons. Also why are we paying attention to what a comedian/mma color commentator has to say on a scientific topic?
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Oct 25, 2018 00:57
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I can’t believe I’m agreeing with willie dee about something, but I think the level of pre-transition strength is important. There’s a purple-belt lady at my gym who was, in a previous life, an extremely buff special forces dude, and she is so buff that she struggles to invert or roll or do much movement off her back. In her case, it wouldn’t be fair, but then my sister-in-law, also trans, is a waif and always has been, and I don’t think anyone would be bothered by her competing. While I want to be supportive, it’d be really difficult to regulate.
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Oct 25, 2018 00:59
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Mekchu posted:
He's a smart guy whose been around man! He readily admits he doesn't know everything. *posts a grayed out picture of Rogan talking about how things are bullshit on facebook*
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Oct 25, 2018 01:02
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If I just accidentally agreed with joe rogan about something I’m going to quit jiu-jitsu and kill myself
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Oct 25, 2018 01:04
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willie_dee posted:Joe Rogan talks about it a lot because of Falon Fox, and he has quoted bone density, fast twitch muscle fibers, etc etc, all being a thing that once you have, its going to stick around to some degree. You are free to not buy into my argument, after all there just isn’t enough data right now to make much more than an educated guess. Rogan on the other hand is a loving idiot. Don’t bring his bullshit in here. I’ve heard people mention the bone density thing tons of times, but no one can explain how it helps performance. Because it wouldn’t, except for reducing skeletal injury. Fiber type is unbelievably complex with a ton of factors. Sex is one, but it appears to be way less important than a lot of others (genetic predisposition being a huge one, extended training stimulus being another). Regardless, we again run into the issue that prolonged estrogenic environments appears to revert any changes in size between the sexes (animal models).
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Oct 25, 2018 01:36
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02-6611-0142-1 posted:If I just accidentally agreed with joe rogan about something I’m going to quit jiu-jitsu and kill myself How sad of you not to be pro-weed.
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Oct 25, 2018 01:38
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Are there differences in bone size and density between men and women? How are those effected by transitioning? Does mass of hand bone size translate to punching power? Is there any difference in skull size that would allow men to take bigger hits before being KOed? I mean most of those won’t matter for Judo or BJJ but they could certainly create an imbalanced playing field or be potentially dangerous for women in MMA.
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Oct 25, 2018 04:52
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VulgarandStupid posted:Are there differences in bone size There is none. Humans, across the whole planet, are all the exact same height. This is clearly sarcasm for people who can't tell to lighten up what may be a tense convo Mekchu fucked around with this message at 05:09 on Oct 25, 2018 |
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Oct 25, 2018 05:07
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Can we move this discussion elsewhere?
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Oct 25, 2018 05:23
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JaySB posted:Can we move this discussion elsewhere? Happy to. We aren't going to solve it here, I wouldn't want trans people feeling like they couldn't come to discuss their own personal issues here though if they wanted a broad range of answers with no negative judgments.
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Oct 25, 2018 05:26
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Went to my first bjj gi class yesterday. Thought wearing a white belt was a little insulting, as surely some people there knew who I was, how ever I guess on a few minor technical levels I a white belt so what ever. First off, I didn't realise gi's were heavy and so bloody warm. Is that normal to feel after only ever having done no gi?
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Oct 25, 2018 05:29
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Yes. You'll get used to it.JaySB posted:Can we move this discussion elsewhere? Where would one have this discussion though? Not being snarky, just don't know where you would have an appropriate discussion about science related topics for transgender people in combat sports? D&D? TGRS? A/T? PSP? Mekchu fucked around with this message at 05:38 on Oct 25, 2018 |
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Oct 25, 2018 05:34
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willie_dee posted:Went to my first bjj gi class yesterday. Thought wearing a white belt was a little insulting, as surely some people there knew who I was, how ever I guess on a few minor technical levels I a white belt so what ever. You're definitely a white belt in gi. No gi jiu jitsu might as well be an entirely different sport. And yeah, it's warm in gi
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Oct 25, 2018 05:35
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Mekchu posted:Yes. You'll get used to it. We could talk about it in the grappling thread since it's about judo competition but it's like exactly the same posters as this thread 
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Oct 25, 2018 06:14
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Mekchu posted:Yes. You'll get used to it. Seconding this, it’s an interesting topic and I’ve actually learned a bit from the thread, but it doesn’t really fit anywhere else. Edit: actually, are there any other combat sports that have managed to legislate a good way to include transgender competitors or is it just a new issue, in terms of increased visibility/frequency? quidditch it and quit it fucked around with this message at 09:07 on Oct 25, 2018 |
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Oct 25, 2018 09:04
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02-6611-0142-1 posted:I can’t believe I’m agreeing with willie dee about something, but I think the level of pre-transition strength is important. There’s a purple-belt lady at my gym who was, in a previous life, an extremely buff special forces dude, and she is so buff that she struggles to invert or roll or do much movement off her back. In her case, it wouldn’t be fair, but then my sister-in-law, also trans, is a waif and always has been, and I don’t think anyone would be bothered by her competing. While I want to be supportive, it’d be really difficult to regulate. Seems like a weight class problem to me, not a gender problem. A lady who lifts religiously and is about as strong as her personal genetics will allow is going to do the same thing if she's fighting other women who aren't carrying as much muscle due to the weight classes being silly.
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Oct 25, 2018 11:15
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quidditch it and quit it posted:Seconding this, it’s an interesting topic and I’ve actually learned a bit from the thread, but it doesn’t really fit anywhere else. I wasn't pushing for the discussion to be here nor not to be here. I wanted to know where that discussion could take place.
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Oct 25, 2018 13:01
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Liquid Cannibalism posted:Seems like a weight class problem to me, not a gender problem. Yep. As is the "bone density" thing.
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Oct 25, 2018 13:24
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CommonShore posted:Yep. As is the "bone density" thing. “I’ve fought a lot of women and have never felt the strength that I felt in a fight as I did that night. I can’t answer whether it’s because [he] was born a man or not, because I’m not a doctor,” she stated. “I can only say, I’ve never felt so overpowered ever in my life, and I am an abnormally strong female in my own right. ” https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...Hu4hg6g4XvFEFSS JaySB fucked around with this message at 17:54 on Oct 25, 2018 |
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Oct 25, 2018 16:56
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JaySB posted:“I’ve fought a lot of women and have never felt the strength that I felt in a fight as I did that night. I can’t answer whether it’s because [he] was born a man or not, because I’m not a doctor,” she stated. “I can only say, I’ve never felt so overpowered ever in my life, and I am an abnormally strong female in my own right. ” Page not found.
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Oct 25, 2018 17:22
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Odddzy posted:Page not found. Fixed, I think.
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Oct 25, 2018 17:55
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Is wrestling a martial art?
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Oct 25, 2018 17:58
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spb posted:Is wrestling a martial art? Very much so, one of the best. I would take a wrestler over any kung fu aikido bullshit artist dick head equivalent every time.
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Oct 25, 2018 18:08
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Liquid Cannibalism posted:Seems like a weight class problem to me, not a gender problem. Then why are mens weight lifters in the same weight class so much stronger than their female counter parts in the same weight class? It's not a weight class thing. I'm terrible at mma and boxing and could hold my own against a semi pro female fighter who was 5lbs heavier than me by virtue of strength alone when I was 145lbs.
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Oct 25, 2018 18:10
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JaySB posted:Fixed, I think. Nope, still no good
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Oct 25, 2018 18:20
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here the link bae
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Oct 25, 2018 18:24
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JaySB posted:“I’ve fought a lot of women and have never felt the strength that I felt in a fight as I did that night. I can’t answer whether it’s because [he] was born a man or not, because I’m not a doctor,” she stated. “I can only say, I’ve never felt so overpowered ever in my life, and I am an abnormally strong female in my own right. ” Well two things here. First, I'm sure that an article that puts female into scare quotes is a reliable and impartial source, and that a 2-3 b-league woman is a great standard of comparison... It also deserves note that Fallon Fox fights at 145 and was TKOed by a UFC also-ran who now fights at 125 - so yeah, she's really physically imposing. but second, I mean that the bone density is a canard in that if a person's bones are more dense than another's, that person will weigh more. That's what density means.
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Oct 25, 2018 18:27
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The front page of that site... Yikes
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Oct 25, 2018 18:31
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ICHIBAHN posted:The front page of that site... Yikes 
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Oct 25, 2018 18:42
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