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The worst part about the argument is that it’s now set up in a way that if you want to take precautions to protect women you are now against trans people. Anyway, I used to train with a trans male both when he was a woman and after the transition. He (as a woman) fought a now former woman’s UFC champ years before women were in the UFC. I think he got quite the eye opener in terms of strength difference when newer training partners who weren’t treating him as a girl, or when he started telling guys not to hold back and has gone back to mostly BJJ. Since you haven’t posted the publication saying trans women don’t have a competitive advantage over women, can you at least outline the criteria examined or what sport(s) were focused on mainly?
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Oct 25, 2018 19:20
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This derail is fun and so good for posters who might have legitimate martial arts questions or are trans. Glad we're having a stupid slap fight, let's continue this.
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Oct 25, 2018 20:13
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CommonShore posted:Well two things here. First, I'm sure that an article that puts female into scare quotes is a reliable and impartial source, and that a 2-3 b-league woman is a great standard of comparison... It also deserves note that Fallon Fox fights at 145 and was TKOed by a UFC also-ran who now fights at 125 - so yeah, she's really physically imposing. Once you read past the dumb headline, you find a link to the actual interview that was done by a different site that is more combat sports oriented and has less egregious titles to get clicks. http://whoatv.com/exclusive-fallon-foxs-latest-opponent-opens-up-to-whoatv/ VulgarandStupid posted:Since you haven’t posted the publication saying trans women don’t have a competitive advantage over women, can you at least outline the criteria examined or what sport(s) were focused on mainly? This too. Mekchu fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Oct 25, 2018 |
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Oct 25, 2018 23:20
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Liquid Cannibalism posted:Seems like a weight class problem to me, not a gender problem. Yeah after pondering it a bit it's probably this. I retract whatever other bullshit I said
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Oct 26, 2018 09:50
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There are testosterone ranges in men and women and they also overlap. So there are women that have more test than men. Naturally a significant portion of those women have better athletic ability than women with less testosterone. As long as a trans athlete is within test ranges of women and has been transitioned for a few years they’re fine to compete. Also the bone density thing is false as gently caress as trans women have greater chances of osteoporosis Here’s a study from Brazil which has pretty progressive healthcare support for trans folks. https://www.mdedge.com/clinicalendocrinologynews/article/163266/osteoporosis/transgender-women-ht-have-lower-bone-density
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Oct 26, 2018 12:26
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I don’t have anything in particular to add one way or another, but I know a few people here are curious/uncertain about terminology. The preferred nomenclature is of course to refer to someone by their gender. If you have some reason to discuss their transition or dead life before or need to differentiate from cis-gendered people (as in the current discussion), the proper term currently is A[M/F]AB for Assigned [Male or Female] At Birth. This is significantly preferred over MTF or FTM because a AMAB woman has never really been a man and an AFAB man has never really been a woman.
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Oct 26, 2018 13:40
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KidDynamite posted:There are testosterone ranges in men and women and they also overlap. So there are women that have more test than men. Naturally a significant portion of those women have better athletic ability than women with less testosterone. As long as a trans athlete is within test ranges of women and has been transitioned for a few years they’re fine to compete. Also the bone density thing is false as gently caress as trans women have greater chances of osteoporosis These overlaps, are they common, or are you talking about men with critically low test levels to the point a trt Dr would intervene with women who have some hormonal imbalance like a girl from high school who had something go wrong with her ovaries, and she grew to 6'3 and had issues with androginess (sp?) features that dogged her appearance and she hated until it was all sorted out? Edit: and thank you Mr Nice that's interesting and makes a lot of sense. I will work on it.
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Oct 26, 2018 14:18
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I have a question, since some of you seem to know things. Are women's muscles/tendons/bones arranged any differently than men's? I've been in the army a while and I've heard several people say (all women), in the training environment, that women develop hip/joint issues more than the guys simply due to muscle/tendon/bone arrangement. I've never seen any science about it, but I work in a branch where around 50% of the soldiers are women and they talk about this. A lot. Also, one of my minors is in forensic anthropology and I know for a fact that you can identify the gender of someone by their bones, I just don't know about muscles/tendons/etc. Or if any of those things would make a difference.
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Oct 26, 2018 14:22
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spacetoaster posted:I have a question, since some of you seem to know things. I just finished a midterm exam on the skeletal system and muscular system for an anatomy class. The only difference I am aware of involves the hip and pelvic region. The sacrum and coccyx in men tilts forward, while in women it tilts back slightly (to provide more room for birth). Women have a greater angle in their pubic arch, which makes the legs have a slight inward angle compared to men, whose femurs are attached more straight. The tilt in the femur attachment site in the hips can lead to some hip and leg problems, as it's a less stable position than the straight, upright configuration in men, so it can put more stress on the bones/muscles/connective tissues of those areas. I imagine that hormone imbalances could also lead to some joint issues. If you look it up online, you'll see things that claim that men have larger skulls, women have shorter legs, or that women have more flexible joints, and so on. I would take those a bit more cautiously. The sexual differences in the pelvic bone (and thus in the angle of the legs due to their attachment site being different) have a specific physiological purpose. Other purported differences are probably based on taking a statistical average. Obviously, there are men and women of all kinds of proportions. There are undoubtedly some women who have proportionally longer legs, and some men who have proportionally smaller shoulders.
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Oct 26, 2018 15:22
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Mr. Nice! posted:I don’t have anything in particular to add one way or another, but I know a few people here are curious/uncertain about terminology. The preferred nomenclature is of course to refer to someone by their gender. If you have some reason to discuss their transition or dead life before or need to differentiate from cis-gendered people (as in the current discussion), the proper term currently is A[M/F]AB for Assigned [Male or Female] At Birth. Thanks, will be more cognizant about this in the future.
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Oct 26, 2018 15:41
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I discuss this a lot with women and trans fencers in HEMA. The conclusion we came to is that if you're accounting for differences in physical attributes by gender, but NOT accounting for physical attributes within genders, then the issue isn't about physical attributes at all so much as it is about social stigmas regarding transgenderism, especially if people are OK with the idea of women and men fencing each other, which is often the case in HEMA circles. The only real solution I've come to is further scientific analysis and differentiation between fighters in an attempt to reduce physical advantages, and thus draw out a more accurate assessment of difference in skill, while also mitigating the potential for injury. Differentiate fighters with regards to weight, height, arm-length, shoulder-width, twitch muscle fiber, etc., but not specifically gender. I'm not sure where the line can be drawn to say "we'll measure up to this point, but any differences beyond this are OK", but it's a foundation to build on. One of the largest HEMA tournaments in the country is going to implement categorization based on weight, with mixed-gender pools, and I think that will go a long way to alleviating issues with this system. Verisimilidude fucked around with this message at 16:10 on Oct 26, 2018 |
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Oct 26, 2018 16:08
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Verisimilidude posted:The only real solution I've come to is further scientific analysis and differentiation between fighters in an attempt to reduce physical advantages, and thus draw out a more accurate assessment of difference in skill, while also mitigating the potential for injury. Differentiate fighters with regards to weight, height, arm-length, shoulder-width, twitch muscle fiber, etc., but not specifically gender. I'm not sure where the line can be drawn to say "we'll measure up to this point, but any differences beyond this are OK", but it's a foundation to build on. I really want to get a job as the person who makes fighting game parameter graphs for everyone 
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Oct 26, 2018 16:27
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Verisimilidude posted:I discuss this a lot with women and trans fencers in HEMA. The conclusion we came to is that if you're accounting for differences in physical attributes by gender, but NOT accounting for physical attributes within genders, then the issue isn't about physical attributes at all so much as it is about social stigmas regarding transgenderism, especially if people are OK with the idea of women and men fencing each other, which is often the case in HEMA circles. I always thought the bone structure argument was weird. Men have bigger frames! Even with female levels of test, they still have the advantage of the manly skeleton! What about guys like Jon Jones or Shane Carwin? Jones has been significantly advantaged in his fighting career because of his length that is basically unmatched in his division. He has a frame that gives him an edge, but that's not prohibited. Shane Carwin had 5XL glove sized hands or something stupid like that. Where some guys have frail little bones in their hands and break them whenever they land a punch, he had giant sledgehammers at the ends of his arms to pummel people with. Again, a structural advantage. I'm not up on the science to know the extent of the differences between a transgender woman at any point of transition versus a woman from birth, but some of the "unfair advantages" sound like things that already differ significantly between members of the same gender.
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Oct 26, 2018 17:44
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FreakyMetalKid posted:
Completely agree, but how far do you take it? If we go full out and say there are no differences between gender, everyone's equal, let genetics sort it out, women will literally disappear from most sports would they not? Martial arts wise, would a woman manage to break into the top 100? Top 500? That doesn't seem right, so how far do we walk it back, splitting the genders is an obvious choice to start with. Then when it comes to Trans people, its how much does growing up with, and for how long after, do trans people who are AMAB but are female benefit from having that (comparatively) ultra high test levels, bone structure, etc etc I don't know, and I don't think science does, but ive linked examples of Trans people utterly dominating Cis people, and that doesn't seem fair. As I said, I have taken a tiny amount of steroids in the past, I will never compete because I feel my body has changed so significantly that it wouldn't be fair, and this is a year later and a lot of life poo poo means I have not maintained my peak form, it still wouldn't be fair.
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Oct 26, 2018 17:58
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Having no gender separation in sports would make women disappear. Even in relatively technical sports like golf, the top women can't compete with the men, because they can't, on average, hit the ball as far.
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Oct 26, 2018 18:45
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We alright have weight classes though right? The winner of absolute division in grappling at least isnt always the 250ib monster.
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Oct 26, 2018 18:49
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ImplicitAssembler posted:Having no gender separation in sports would make women disappear. Even in relatively technical sports like golf, the top women can't compete with the men, because they can't, on average, hit the ball as far. To be fair, height makes a huge difference in distance of a drive, and male golfers average much taller than female golfers. The argument can be made that societal issues keep women who would physically make excellent golfers from participating in the sport due to social stigma, or other expectations with regards to gender. Not to say that diminishes your point, but options can and should be explored. Sports change rules to accommodate physical changes over time relatively frequently. Verisimilidude fucked around with this message at 19:05 on Oct 26, 2018 |
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Oct 26, 2018 19:01
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This is really stupid. I have grappled with women who are in shape and both bigger and more experienced than me and I can still dominate because the difference in strength and athleticism is so severe. I'm not an anatomy expert and can't say exactly why that is but there is an enormous difference between biologically male and female athletes.
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Oct 26, 2018 19:09
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Mechafunkzilla posted:This is really stupid. I have grappled with women who are in shape and both bigger and more experienced than me and I can still dominate because the difference in strength and athleticism is so severe. I'm not an anatomy expert and can't say exactly why that is but there is an enormous difference between biologically male and female athletes. I don't think anyone's questioning that and I completely agree with you, the question is, for how long does that carry over once a AMAB person transitions to being Female?
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Oct 26, 2018 19:11
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willie_dee posted:I don't think anyone's questioning that and I completely agree with you, the question is, for how long does that carry over once a AMAB person transitions to being Female? I have no idea and I don't think anyone else here really does either. I'm not sure people speculating based on apocrypha and second-hand endocrinology is particularly helpful.
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Oct 26, 2018 19:17
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There's only one person who has a chance of figuring this all out using actual statistics and empirical data https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSgluRUE8T4
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Oct 26, 2018 19:25
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Mechafunkzilla posted:There's only one person who has a chance of figuring this all out using actual statistics and empirical data This man is a national treasure .
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Oct 26, 2018 19:29
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Verisimilidude posted:To be fair, height makes a huge difference in distance of a drive, and male golfers average much taller than female golfers. The argument can be made that societal issues keep women who would physically make excellent golfers from participating in the sport due to social stigma, or other expectations with regards to gender. Regardless of how you twist and turn it, there's about 8% physical performance difference between men and women.* Braasch vs the Williams sisters highlights this more than anything.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Sexes_(tennis)#1998:_Karsten_Braasch_vs._the_Williams_sisters * Using the current definitions of gender...I'm aware it's not a strict binary definition.
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Oct 26, 2018 22:11
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Willie finally did it... https://nypost.com/2018/10/25/eight...urce=reddit.com
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Oct 27, 2018 02:53
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Willie Dee, the hero we didn't really want.
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Oct 27, 2018 02:57
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That ain't me, I would of died.
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Oct 27, 2018 03:20
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Just give them the phone
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Oct 27, 2018 03:25
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Dave Grool posted:Just give them the phone Im not having them get my nudes
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Oct 27, 2018 03:31
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Isn't under the armpit a way to get to the lung without hitting the ribcage?
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Oct 28, 2018 19:29
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kimbo305 posted:Isn't under the armpit a way to get to the lung without hitting the ribcage? If you're using a knife the armpit is where you stab to get the axillary artery. I've never seen it get a lung before.
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Oct 28, 2018 19:47
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Will an average Judo session constitute a strength training day? I'm currently working on a 3 days a week body weight exercise routine. I tried doing to training on the same day as Judo once, never again, and have instead taken to doing the exercise regime Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays, with Judo on Wednesdays. The trouble is, Judo sessions have slowly been getting harder and harder as I've improved and now that I'm a red belt I'm basically allowed to participate mostly fully. This wrecks me for Thursdays which means my form is poo poo for body weight training. Which even further wrecks me on Fridays if I ever do manage to complete the full routine, to the point I've had to call in sick to work last week. I'm trying to find a way to balance it all, but if I could just wash my hands and count Judo as a strength training day, things would be a lot easier to work with.
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Oct 29, 2018 14:07
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OscarDiggs posted:Will an average Judo session constitute a strength training day? What's your priority? I train BJJ, and for me that's my number 1. All my other training takes a back seat-- if I'm too tired/sore during BJJ, then I cut something else out. It sounds like you're over-training, so the only real question is what you cut.
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Oct 29, 2018 14:48
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Count Roland posted:What's your priority? Health/Weight loss for right now. I started Judo mostly as an extention to that, as well as working some skill based element in.
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Oct 29, 2018 16:58
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I don't consider Judo on its own to be a strength day.
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Oct 29, 2018 17:38
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I'll work out something splitting the week then. If I start Friday I'll finish Tuesday.
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Oct 29, 2018 18:39
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Lifting on a Judo day is very demanding on your body, and I don't recommend it unless you're already a high level athlete trying to maximize your progress and are already used to working out multiple times a day.
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Oct 29, 2018 19:30
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hi liter posted:Lifting on a Judo day is very demanding on your body, and I don't recommend it unless you're already a high level athlete trying to maximize your progress and are already used to working out multiple times a day. Agreed, I tried lifting and boxing on the same days, within 2 weeks I was over trained beyond being able to do anything.
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Oct 29, 2018 19:43
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I'd say that judo is more of a conditioning day, it could count as strength if your sensei is like mine and makes the teenagers do a bunch of squats with another guy on their back. Cardio on non-judo days would be really good to help those days get better. As you get even better at judo, it should become less of a workout as you use less strength and more technique.
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Oct 29, 2018 21:51
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hi liter posted:Lifting on a Judo day is very demanding on your body, and I don't recommend it unless you're already a high level athlete trying to maximize your progress and are already used to working out multiple times a day.
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Oct 31, 2018 12:58
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Yuns posted:You don't have to be that elite but your ability to recover is key to multiple workouts. I lift with high weights and volume 7 days a week at night and train BJJ 5 days a week (weekdays) in the morning. My only athletic gift is the ability to recover much faster than most people and lack of need for sleep. To be fair that's a pretty big gift.
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Oct 31, 2018 15:39
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