Fallout General & 76: Hallowen will this game get fixed?

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Fallout General & 76: Hallowen will this game get fixed?

Siljmonster: Dec 16, 2005; by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

Tei posted:

You are talking about the whole engine, and I am talking about parts of it.

The mission of the engine, the faster the better. But how you get there, theres different ways and strategies, and the strategy to "optimize everything" is the most poor possible.

Optimized code is harder to read, harder to change, harder to debug, harder to rewrite. Unoptimized code with a naive approach are easier to replace with a better version.

Also optimized about what? memory consumation? cpu consumation? There are strategies of optimization that use more memory to save CPU, theres strategies of optimization that uses more CPU to save memory. Before you know what you want to optimize and where you want to optimize, is stupid to optimize.

And how much faster you can go? if you are already very fast, it may take a gigantic effort to be a tiny bit faster. The rule of dimishing returns. Sometimes the only way to go forward is to burn the entire house and build a new one. So before you optimize something, you need to look around you, ask people, look at the whole picture, and act smart.

People buying pets for a zoo need to save money on the elephants, not on the mouses. If the mouses cost 2$, and you optimize 50% the cost of moses, you pay 1$ for mouse. Great, you save 1$ from your budget. If your elephants cost 100000$ and you get a 10% optimization, you save 1000$ for elephant. Where you optimize can be more important than how much you optimize.

You literally make no sense.

# ? Oct 26, 2018 17:08

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# ? May 20, 2024 19:19

BillyC: Feb 19, 2013; everythin' under heaven is in utter chaos, cloud; Bread Liar

Fallout 76 is a game.

# ? Oct 26, 2018 17:10

SplitSoul: Dec 31, 2000

Tei posted:

Like that example a few pages ago (menus checked for buildiables). Is unoptimized yes, but work ok for the stock game. It somewhat break with mods, but the shipped game was fine.

Not really. There's also the massive slowdowns around Boston as the game is needlessly rendering a ton of poo poo you can't even see. Also had to be fixed by a modder.

I'll give them that it's their most stable game to date, but that isn't really saying much, and it's evened out by breaking a lot of mods every time they add a new paid mod to the in-game store, some of which need their own unofficial third-party patches.

Their QA managed to let an FNV release bug slip through that deleted your cloud savegames.

# ? Oct 26, 2018 17:10

Siljmonster: Dec 16, 2005; by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

BillyC posted:

Fallout 76 is a game.

We live in a video game society.

# ? Oct 26, 2018 17:10

Siljmonster: Dec 16, 2005; by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

SplitSoul posted:

Their QA managed to let an FNV release bug slip through that deleted your cloud savegames.

They dont do QA at all.

# ? Oct 26, 2018 17:11

BillyC: Feb 19, 2013; everythin' under heaven is in utter chaos, cloud; Bread Liar

Siljmonster posted:

We live in a video game society.

This is deep. Gamers rise up.

# ? Oct 26, 2018 17:12

Ichabod Tane: Oct 30, 2005; A most notable
coward, an infinite and endless liar, an hourly promise breaker, the owner of no one good quality.

https://youtu.be/_Ojd0BdtMBY?t=4

Tei posted:

You are talking about the whole engine, and I am talking about parts of it.

The mission of the engine, the faster the better. But how you get there, theres different ways and strategies, and the strategy to "optimize everything" is the most poor possible.

Optimized code is harder to read, harder to change, harder to debug, harder to rewrite. Unoptimized code with a naive approach are easier to replace with a better version.

Also optimized about what? memory consumation? cpu consumation? There are strategies of optimization that use more memory to save CPU, theres strategies of optimization that uses more CPU to save memory. Before you know what you want to optimize and where you want to optimize, is stupid to optimize.

And how much faster you can go? if you are already very fast, it may take a gigantic effort to be a tiny bit faster. The rule of dimishing returns. Sometimes the only way to go forward is to burn the entire house and build a new one. So before you optimize something, you need to look around you, ask people, look at the whole picture, and act smart.

People buying pets for a zoo need to save money on the elephants, not on the mouses. If the mouses cost 2$, and you optimize 50% the cost of moses, you pay 1$ for mouse. Great, you save 1$ from your budget. If your elephants cost 100000$ and you get a 10% optimization, you save 1000$ for elephant. Where you optimize can be more important than how much you optimize.

What happened here friend

# ? Oct 26, 2018 17:13

Tei: Feb 19, 2011

SplitSoul posted:

Not really. There's also the massive slowdowns around Boston as the game is needlessly rendering a ton of poo poo you can't even see. Also had to be fixed by a modder.

Modders fixing something the original devs missed don't mean the original devs are uncaring. Just that something slipped through the leaks.

# ? Oct 26, 2018 17:15

Siljmonster: Dec 16, 2005; by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

Tei posted:

Modders fixing something the original devs missed don't mean the original devs are uncaring. Just that something slipped through the leaks.

The devs didnt "miss" anything. They didnt do QA. They dont fix or optimize their engine. They dont fix bugs.

Because they want the free labor of other people doing it for them.

But they never learn their mistakes.

# ? Oct 26, 2018 17:16

SplitSoul: Dec 31, 2000

Tei posted:

Modders fixing something the original devs missed don't mean the original devs are uncaring. Just that something slipped through the leaks.

The mod came out two years after the game.

# ? Oct 26, 2018 17:18

Tei: Feb 19, 2011

Siljmonster posted:

The devs didnt "miss" anything. They didnt do QA. They dont fix or optimize their engine. They dont fix bugs.

If you look at any software bug trackng system you will find devs fixed hundred of bugs. Even if they fixed 9000 bugs some may remain undetected.

# ? Oct 26, 2018 17:28

Twincityhacker: Feb 18, 2011

I'm reading the stats for the PC release, and does it really say "Dedicated Video RAM 3 GB (2GB AMD)" so if you have AMD graphics you need less RAM? Because that doesn't really make sense to me.

Though if it really is 2 GB for AMD, I just hit the minimum requirements. And since I can't return it if it doesn't run, I would like to make sure I hit minimum.

# ? Oct 26, 2018 17:30

Bardeh: Dec 2, 2004; Fun Shoe

Tei posted:

You are talking about the whole engine, and I am talking about parts of it.

The mission of the engine, the faster the better. But how you get there, theres different ways and strategies, and the strategy to "optimize everything" is the most poor possible.

Optimized code is harder to read, harder to change, harder to debug, harder to rewrite. Unoptimized code with a naive approach are easier to replace with a better version.

Also optimized about what? memory consumation? cpu consumation? There are strategies of optimization that use more memory to save CPU, theres strategies of optimization that uses more CPU to save memory. Before you know what you want to optimize and where you want to optimize, is stupid to optimize.

And how much faster you can go? if you are already very fast, it may take a gigantic effort to be a tiny bit faster. The rule of dimishing returns. Sometimes the only way to go forward is to burn the entire house and build a new one. So before you optimize something, you need to look around you, ask people, look at the whole picture, and act smart.

People buying pets for a zoo need to save money on the elephants, not on the mouses. If the mouses cost 2$, and you optimize 50% the cost of moses, you pay 1$ for mouse. Great, you save 1$ from your budget. If your elephants cost 100000$ and you get a 10% optimization, you save 1000$ for elephant. Where you optimize can be more important than how much you optimize.

What is this nonsense? I don't give a poo poo about the stuff behind the scenes, I just want a game that works. Bethesda keep releasing buggy, unoptimized games that don't work properly, and then relying on modders to fix it. Time and time again, and FO76 is no different. I don't understand why you're so keen to make excuses for them. They have the resources and the personnel, but for whatever reason (because their games sell a ton anyway) they seem quite content to keep on doing what they do.

# ? Oct 26, 2018 17:31

CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK: Sep 11, 2001

Tei posted:

You are talking about the whole engine, and I am talking about parts of it.

The mission of the engine, the faster the better. But how you get there, theres different ways and strategies, and the strategy to "optimize everything" is the most poor possible.

Optimized code is harder to read, harder to change, harder to debug, harder to rewrite. Unoptimized code with a naive approach are easier to replace with a better version.

Also optimized about what? memory consumation? cpu consumation? There are strategies of optimization that use more memory to save CPU, theres strategies of optimization that uses more CPU to save memory. Before you know what you want to optimize and where you want to optimize, is stupid to optimize.

And how much faster you can go? if you are already very fast, it may take a gigantic effort to be a tiny bit faster. The rule of dimishing returns. Sometimes the only way to go forward is to burn the entire house and build a new one. So before you optimize something, you need to look around you, ask people, look at the whole picture, and act smart.

People buying pets for a zoo need to save money on the elephants, not on the mouses. If the mouses cost 2$, and you optimize 50% the cost of moses, you pay 1$ for mouse. Great, you save 1$ from your budget. If your elephants cost 100000$ and you get a 10% optimization, you save 1000$ for elephant. Where you optimize can be more important than how much you optimize.

What even is optimization?

# ? Oct 26, 2018 17:33

Siljmonster: Dec 16, 2005; by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

Tei posted:

If you look at any software bug trackng system you will find devs fixed hundred of bugs. Even if they fixed 9000 bugs some may remain undetected.

Cool, if only Bethesda used bug tracking systems and fixed bugs.

but in 6 years of my career I made thousands of tickets for QA to track and complete with all the poo poo I designed in games. Guess what we didnt hire enouigh QA to find and fix all the bugs all the time so I spent countless hours making sure every test case was found so we didnt release with huge game ending inbalances or breaks in gameplay loops and managers still let extreme cases go out live and it loving BROKE OUR GAME MULTIPLE TIMES.

We actually hired someone to optimize our game, and guess what it ran better and didnt crash and didnt throw up errors when we fixed memory leaks.

# ? Oct 26, 2018 17:33

MMF Freeway: Sep 15, 2010; Later!

CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:

What even is optimization?

Now you've done it

# ? Oct 26, 2018 17:34

Siljmonster: Dec 16, 2005; by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

Bethesda, a company with 0 live operated multiplayer game experience decided to launch a multiplayer live operated game.

# ? Oct 26, 2018 17:35

Tei: Feb 19, 2011

Siljmonster posted:

Bethesda, a company with 0 live operated multiplayer game experience decided to launch a multiplayer live operated game.

Well, is spooky...

Funcom had to do a few rollbacks on his release of age of conan, I cant imagine anything worse for the players than a rollback.

# ? Oct 26, 2018 17:42

BillyC: Feb 19, 2013; everythin' under heaven is in utter chaos, cloud; Bread Liar

What is an engine? A miserable pile of secrets!

# ? Oct 26, 2018 17:47

Frog Act: Feb 10, 2012

Sorry guys...our game is simply too optimal, we're going to have to start over

# ? Oct 26, 2018 17:52

Golden Bee: Dec 24, 2009; I came here to chew bubblegum and quote 'They Live', and I'm... at an impasse.

I get the feeling that, considering the state of the game industry, the team was given not enough time to do what they needed to. Plans to start from stage one were ignored, people worked under crunch and now they will release the game so that they can reach the state of having released it.

Keeping people around out of loyalty is a good thing to do for them in a bad thing to do to a CodeBase.

# ? Oct 26, 2018 17:53

Siljmonster: Dec 16, 2005; by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

Golden Bee posted:

I get the feeling that, considering the state of the game industry, the team was given not enough time to do what they needed to. Plans to start from stage one were ignored, people worked under crunch and now they will release the game so that they can reach the state of having released it.

Keeping people around out of loyalty is a good thing to do for them in a bad thing to do to a CodeBase.

But the hundreds of managers had an easy time.

# ? Oct 26, 2018 17:54

Donovan Trip: Jan 6, 2007

I predict a lot of fallout over this game

# ? Oct 26, 2018 17:58

Paul Zuvella: Dec 7, 2011

People buying pets for zoos

# ? Oct 26, 2018 18:02

Siljmonster: Dec 16, 2005; by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

Paul Zuvella posted:

People buying pets for zoos

Its free optimization

# ? Oct 26, 2018 18:05

Prophecy120: Feb 4, 2003; God Bless the Enclave! God Bless America!

Good news guys, you can pre-load the PC beta starting now. It's 47.5 gigs.

# ? Oct 26, 2018 18:08

Jose Oquendo: Jun 20, 2004; Star Trek: The Motion Picture is a boring movie

Prophecy120 posted:

Good news guys, you can pre-load the PC beta starting now. It's 47.5 gigs.

PS4 is up too.

# ? Oct 26, 2018 18:14

Tei: Feb 19, 2011

Paul Zuvella posted:

People buying pets for zoos

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Program_optimization#Bottlenecks

quote:

Optimization can reduce readability and add code that is used only to improve the performance. This may complicate programs or systems, making them harder to maintain and debug. As a result, optimization or performance tuning is often performed at the end of the development stage.

Donald Knuth made the following two statements on optimization:

"We should forget about small efficiencies, say about 97% of the time: premature optimization is the root of all evil. Yet we should not pass up our opportunities in that critical 3%"[5]

(He also attributed the quote to Tony Hoare several years later,[6] although this might have been an error as Hoare disclaims having coined the phrase.[7])
"In established engineering disciplines a 12% improvement, easily obtained, is never considered marginal and I believe the same viewpoint should prevail in software engineering"[5]

In bold a sentence that is basically what I said. Then Donald Knuth seems to agree with my idea that optimizing everything is a bad idea. If I am wrong, I am on the same boat Donald Knuth, so at least I am on the right boat.

# ? Oct 26, 2018 18:19

Siljmonster: Dec 16, 2005; by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

Tei posted:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Program_optimization#Bottlenecks

In bold a sentence that is basically what I said. Then Donald Knuth seems to agree with my idea that optimizing everything is a bad idea. If I am wrong, I am on the same boat Donald Knuth, so at least I am on the right boat.

lmao

# ? Oct 26, 2018 18:25

Paul Zuvella: Dec 7, 2011

Tei posted:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Program_optimization#Bottlenecks

In bold a sentence that is basically what I said. Then Donald Knuth seems to agree with my idea that optimizing everything is a bad idea. If I am wrong, I am on the same boat Donald Knuth, so at least I am on the right boat.

PEOPLE BUYING PETS FOR ZOOS

# ? Oct 26, 2018 18:29

sharknado slashfic: Jun 24, 2011

Tei posted:

Ieeee... euh... sorry. I got somewhat carried away.

I am passionate about game engines, I guess

I love you all!.

Hey, everyone needs a hobby

# ? Oct 26, 2018 18:33

Tei: Feb 19, 2011

Paul Zuvella posted:

PEOPLE BUYING PETS FOR ZOOS

"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication" - Leonardo DaVinci

http://wiki.c2.com/?RulesOfOptimizationClub

# ? Oct 26, 2018 18:39

Donovan Trip: Jan 6, 2007

Nothing is simple about the mess of an engine Bethesda uses

# ? Oct 26, 2018 18:41

MMF Freeway: Sep 15, 2010; Later!

Tei posted:

"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication" - Leonardo DaVinci

http://wiki.c2.com/?RulesOfOptimizationClub

bethesda: yeah hold off on that optimization guys. don't wanna do a bottleneck

*over a decade passes*

bethesda: wait for it... waaaaiitttt for it....

# ? Oct 26, 2018 18:45

Gobblecoque: Sep 6, 2011

Tei posted:

"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication" - Leonardo DaVinci

http://wiki.c2.com/?RulesOfOptimizationClub

Are you having a stroke?

# ? Oct 26, 2018 18:48

Tei: Feb 19, 2011

Gobblecoque posted:

Are you having a stroke?

Nah, hahaha

I love you all.

# ? Oct 26, 2018 18:49

Siljmonster: Dec 16, 2005; by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

Tei posted:

"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication" - Leonardo DaVinci

http://wiki.c2.com/?RulesOfOptimizationClub

please stop posting

# ? Oct 26, 2018 18:53

deathbagel: Jun 10, 2008

Stop picking on Tei you bullies and get back to shitposting about how much you hate Fallout 76 and Bethesda!

I just got the email about the pre-load for PC, super excited!

# ? Oct 26, 2018 18:55

Tei: Feb 19, 2011

When is the next beta window?, I want to see what people find further beyond the noob areas.

# ? Oct 26, 2018 18:55

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# ? May 20, 2024 19:19

Paul Zuvella: Dec 7, 2011

What if you could run a zoo in fallout 76 and buy pets for your zoo???

# ? Oct 26, 2018 18:56

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