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i just love how the worker caste are basically forgotten about and ignored. a tripod truly is the least stable form of government
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Oct 28, 2018 10:58
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:i just love how the worker caste are basically forgotten about and ignored. a tripod truly is the least stable form of government I gottta wonder if it’s intentional given Delenn’s whole speech at the end of the series about them being the forgotten caste and giving them a majority in the Grey Council
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Oct 28, 2018 12:52
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Doctor Zero posted:I gottta wonder if it’s intentional given Delenn’s whole speech at the end of the series about them being the forgotten caste and giving them a majority in the Grey Council I don't think so. I think it's more that the distinction in Minbari society so often lies between the Religious and Warrior castes and they tend to be opposed in most things. Because of this, it doesn't ever leave the Worker caste anywhere to fit. We don't ever meet a Minbari from the Workers, as far as I'm aware. There is that aspect of give the power to the people who actually run society and so on but I feel it's undermined by the fact that the Workers aren't so much invisible as just not in the text. It also doesn't help that Minbari society is unclear and, I think, sometimes contradictory. For example, the previous stuff about headbones. Religious caste wear their bones smooth, Warrior caste go spikey and stuff... and Workers... go between the two extremes, maybe? 
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Oct 28, 2018 14:30
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Workers don't have headbones cause they use it to build their spaceships, duh
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Oct 28, 2018 15:00
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hope and vaseline posted:Workers don't have headbones cause they use it to build their spaceships, duh Who do you think runs McBari's? I love that drat joke, right down to "Home of the Golden Headbones"  .
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Oct 28, 2018 15:04
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:I don't think so. I think it's more that the distinction in Minbari society so often lies between the Religious and Warrior castes and they tend to be opposed in most things. Because of this, it doesn't ever leave the Worker caste anywhere to fit. We don't ever meet a Minbari from the Workers, as far as I'm aware. There is that aspect of give the power to the people who actually run society and so on but I feel it's undermined by the fact that the Workers aren't so much invisible as just not in the text. It also doesn't help that Minbari society is unclear and, I think, sometimes contradictory. I think they meant intentional on JMS' part as a worldbuilding/plotting measure, not an in-universe thing.
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Oct 28, 2018 16:32
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I'd always thought it was clan related. Head bones are familial, and while some families have a predilection towards a caste, it's not dispositive.
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Oct 28, 2018 17:50
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:i just love how the worker caste are basically forgotten about and ignored. a tripod truly is the least stable form of government I think that ends up being the point, and almost an analogue to the Vorlon/Shadow conflict, that ideological groups are creating conflict while piggybacking on a status quo maintained by others that they, to an extent, disdain.
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Oct 28, 2018 18:04
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McSpanky posted:I think they meant intentional on JMS' part as a worldbuilding/plotting measure, not an in-universe thing. Yarp.
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Oct 28, 2018 18:51
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Clearly the Worker cast trim their headbones tastefully on the upper ridge to show they can get along with the squares but let the bottom grow wild like a Styracosaurus spike frill cuz nobody cages the beast within. Piety up top, party down the back 
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Oct 28, 2018 21:36
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We probably see worker caste all the time in minor capacities. It's just that the religious and warrior castes are the ones who do dramatic things.
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Oct 28, 2018 21:42
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I wish we had gotten an episode like A View from the Gallery but with two worker caste characters from Brook'lyn
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Oct 28, 2018 22:57
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S1E20, Babylon Squared - Big stuff here, pointing at time loops and future wars. Lots of lore, I want to drink it all down. Also lots of internal Minbari stuff with the Gray Council. I don’t really buy (from an acting perspective) Delenn’s insistence on staying at the station. Her words feel kind of hollow, but that is probably because we just haven’t seen a lot of her other than being mysterious and aloof the entire season. Contrast with the scene where Garibaldi steals Ivanova’s breakfast at the beginning of the episode; those are some characters that have had plenty of time to get more fleshed out. S1E21, The Quality of Mercy - The faith healing plotline is another one that felt like it could have come from Star Trek, but the way it intersected with the convicted murderer plot was grimmer than Trek would ever be. Also bleak: the fact that brain wiping prisoners and using them for manual labor is apparently just a thing people do in this universe. (And that it is somehow seen as a less severe sentence than execution.) The Londo/Lennier scenes were fun. Not sure how I feel about Londo’s tentacle. I miss G’Kar. Feels like it’s been ages since he was on. But the next episode is the season finale so I am assuming he’s got to show up. (Same goes for Kosh,except that he was never really present enough for me to notice his absence.)
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Oct 29, 2018 06:13
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wizzardstaff posted:Not sure how I feel about Londo’s tentacle.  edit: 
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Oct 29, 2018 06:31
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wizzardstaff posted:Also bleak: the fact that brain wiping prisoners and using them for manual labor is apparently just a thing people do in this universe. (And that it is somehow seen as a less severe sentence than execution.) It is. Death of personality can at least be reversed.
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Oct 29, 2018 11:05
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Jedit posted:It is. Death of personality can at least be reversed. It's also a chance at a new life very far away from the bad things they did pre-wipe. Which is, you know, better than being dead.
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Oct 29, 2018 11:26
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Jedit posted:It is. Death of personality can at least be reversed. That’s not the impression I took away from the episode but I’ll take your word for it if it’s a plot point that comes up later or something. I went back and rewatched the scene where he is sentenced. The judge says, “The personality of Karl Edward Mueller will be totally and completely erased. You will then be programmed with a new set of memories. For the rest of your natural life, you will serve the community honorably by your actions.” That doesn’t sound like a sentence with a chance of rehabilitation to me. It sounds like a souped up lobotomy.
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Oct 29, 2018 15:05
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I’m pretty sure they can’t normally be reversed.
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Oct 29, 2018 15:07
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Doctor Zero posted:I’m pretty sure they can’t normally be reversed. It seems like this is one of those 'yes and no' things. A deal that Earthgov takes as a point of fact that it's complete and total, but has wiggle room that isn't entirely clear. We didn't really get a chance to see how things played out with Brother Edward once his memories were unlocked, which may have been for the better. It's possible that the memories could have unspooled to the point that the overwriting personality got dimmer and dimmer, or it could've just left the guy tortured with memories from a life that he doesn't remember leading. There's no clear answer as to how that would've panned out, and the topic was never really revisited in enough detail to get an accurate picture. 'Can't normally be reversed' would probably be better assumed as 'we haven't really tried that hard to reverse it, because why on earth would you bother?' ...You know, I don't actually remember anymore what was up with the guy in the Lassie-mom episode. It's just occurred to me that it's been a long drat time since I've seen it. edit: wording, also realizing that there are gaps in my memory that make speculating about it a little silly. Old Boot fucked around with this message at 15:36 on Oct 29, 2018 |
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Oct 29, 2018 15:27
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Yeah. I'm pretty sure obliterating your personality and then creating a walking zombie to keep post-Capitalism on its legs is worse than just killing the dude. Not only is the end-result the same for the intended victim, but the state is now also putting the perpetrator's family and friends through the additional trauma of knowing their loved one is  alive somewhere, but as good as dead and being used a slave labor. Then you also get people from the ~actual~ victim's family out for vigilante killings (as seen in the ep).Overall, it is a pretty cruel and terrible system and definitely not preferable to simple execution.
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Oct 29, 2018 17:07
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Yep, it's fascist as hell.
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Oct 29, 2018 17:11
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Burning_Monk posted:Yep, it's fascist as hell. EarthGov.txt
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Oct 29, 2018 17:16
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ConfusedUs posted:EarthGov.txt We're just one happy planet!  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZRTbgYXAmo
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Oct 29, 2018 17:18
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Old Boot posted:It seems like this is one of those 'yes and no' things. A deal that Earthgov takes as a point of fact that it's complete and total, but has wiggle room that isn't entirely clear. We didn't really get a chance to see how things played out with Brother Edward once his memories were unlocked, which may have been for the better. It's possible that the memories could have unspooled to the point that the overwriting personality got dimmer and dimmer, or it could've just left the guy tortured with memories from a life that he doesn't remember leading. There's no clear answer as to how that would've panned out, and the topic was never really revisited in enough detail to get an accurate picture. I take it to be kind of like a 1 pass disk wipe. Sure it’s pretty permanent in 99.99% of cases but sometimes the process can be hosed up (like brother Edward ) and perhaps much like the NSA might theoretically be able to do magnetic resonance on a drive, Psicorp might have ways to try to get the original personality back but it would be such a traumatic and horrible process that a person would never be able to revert back properly. Just guesswork on my part though. I do like the whole “this is humane” angle that really isn’t when you stop and think about it.
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Oct 29, 2018 18:30
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The alternative is electric bleachers.
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Oct 29, 2018 22:56
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Like wizardstaff, I just started the series and might enjoy posting my reactions to the season or to specific episodes. I wasn’t planning on starting a new series, but I caught part of a few first-season episodes on Comet and found something about them really charming. 90s cheese is among my favorites, but I find myself really enjoying how full each episode is of character and setting details that I’m guessing will become important. For now though, it just feels like a really rich 90s syndication gem that’s equal parts sci-fi and workplace drama. The opening narration especially makes me smile. It sounds like it comes right out of a pitch document and seems really determined to communicate the sensibility of the series, right down to the choices of vocabulary and awkward “the name of the place is Babylon 5!” I could easily imagine a rough version of that recorded by JMS with scenes cut in from other series or movies that he used to sell people on the series back before it got picked up. I am so charmed by its earnestness and desire to make you understand what you’re about to watch.
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Oct 29, 2018 23:07
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B5 is essentially framed as a docudrama of future historical events. The grand shape of things is always given in the past tense, while the specifics of time and descriptions of place are in the present tense.
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Oct 30, 2018 00:08
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Jedit posted:B5 is essentially framed as a docudrama of future historical events. The grand shape of things is always given in the past tense, while the specifics of time and descriptions of place are in the present tense. Brought to you by Interplanetary Expeditions, the Anla'shok Historical Fund, and Viewers Like You
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Oct 30, 2018 00:24
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Platonicsolid posted:Brought to you by Interplanetary Expeditions, the Anla'shok Historical Fund, and Viewers Like You We pledge for the One, we man phone banks for the One.
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Oct 30, 2018 00:57
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Bieeanshee posted:We pledge for the One, we man phone banks for the One. We mail you this tote bag for the One!
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Oct 30, 2018 01:36
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You guys seem to be doing spoilers for some reason but I'm doing a rewatch and its weird how nobody seems at all concerned about the Drakh shadow-shoulder mind control parasites. They find one on a mars resistance person and just kind of poke it for a little while, shrug it off and never mention it again. Sheridan sees that Londo is stuck with one when he flashes to the future, but doesn't ask future Londo about it and never mentions it to anyone. Seems like a few problems might have been solved if someone went "Hey, this thing? loving weird and bad and you should look out for it."
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Oct 30, 2018 06:30
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Not really? In the first case, they have no idea what it is or where it came from. In the second, Sheridan presumably thinks he averted that future up until the moment he sees Centauri Prime in ruins, and then it's too late. Sheridan associated the future he saw in War Without End with a Shadow victory, after all.
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Oct 30, 2018 06:38
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Marcus announces to the Resistance leaders that the shoulder parasite means the remaining allies of the Shadows were involved somehow. They knew exactly where it came from and what it could do. So they just never ever talk about the invisible parasite than can infiltrate anywhere and control anyone. They especially don't mention it to the person that has seen it before, their commanding officer, who also never mentioned it to them. Also if Sheridan thinks that future was with a Shadow victory then he would know the shoulder parasite was associated with the shadows, which would be great corroborating information if anyone ever cared to mention the one that almost foiled the re-taking of Earth. This would also have been nice information to have when Centauri Prime starts acting inexplicably hostile and manipulative, attacking people and sewing chaos exactly like when the Shadows were influencing people. Rectal Death Adept fucked around with this message at 07:01 on Oct 30, 2018 |
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Oct 30, 2018 06:57
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I don't remember that first bit, and a cursory check isn't corroborating it (the thing controlling Captain Jack is summed up as a mind-controlling parasite). As far as I know, the incident is never mentioned again beyond a brief dissection by Franklin in the same episode.
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Oct 30, 2018 07:06
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Rectal Death Adept posted:You guys seem to be doing spoilers for some reason There's two or three people watching for the first time and sharing their thoughts with the thread. We're all hovering over them, whispering to each other behind our hands.
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Oct 30, 2018 08:37
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Rectal Death Adept posted:You guys seem to be doing spoilers for some reason Didn't you hear? it's 1995 again and everything's great. i sure hope the future is good.
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Oct 30, 2018 09:32
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Jedit posted:B5 is essentially framed as a docudrama of future historical events. The grand shape of things is always given in the past tense, while the specifics of time and descriptions of place are in the present tense. Some kind of legend, of galactic heroes?
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Oct 30, 2018 09:39
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Some kind of legend, of galactic heroes? I take it back, death of personality is irreversible.
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Oct 30, 2018 11:52
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It might be a good idea to have a few descriptive words in the clear before a 100% spoiler post.
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Oct 30, 2018 13:17
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Vavrek posted:There's two or three people watching for the first time and sharing their thoughts with the thread. We're all hovering over them, whispering to each other behind our hands. Yeah please use tags for now since we just had multiple posters say they're watching for the first time. Once it's back to nothing but us geriatric nerds we can be looser.
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Oct 30, 2018 20:48
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