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Hello thread! There were a couple of reports about the derail that happened last night and while I do not know nearly as much history as it is plain to see a lot of posters here do, I can tell that it got heated and was unpleasant. If we could remember that we are in Games, not D&D, and as such this thread should be more about Hearts of Iron than discussing these real life events - especially when it does get so heated about these kinds of things that real life historians discuss definitely do. I know the conversation has moved on but I just wanted it to be clear in case it happens again. Thank you so much everyone!
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Oct 30, 2018 13:35
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| # ? Jun 2, 2024 22:18 |
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What's the deal with the US focus that lets them invade Venezuela in 1937 and short-circuit their way past the "Isolation" economic laws? Was there any historic basis for a US invasion of Venezuela in the 1930s?
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Oct 30, 2018 13:40
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That's a long, complicated topic in and of itself but the short answer is: the US has always had designs on South America and while I don't know of any serious thought being given to an invasion I'm certain plans existed for any contingencies. The Panama Canal was of critical importance to the US Navy and protecting it would be a very high priority. Making sure saboteurs didn't have easy access to it and making sure Axis powers didn't have a base of operations to launch attacks would've been the primary goal. Germany in particular had a lot of influence through Central and South America during this time and was actively spreading Nazi propaganda. The Italians and Japanese were also making coordinated efforts to expand into the region and the US didn't want the war showing up in their backyard. Securing important resources like rubber and copper was also important for the war effort. Making sure those resources made their way to America and not Europe or Asia would have also been high on the list of priorities, especially after the DEI became increasingly threatened. Expansion of resource extraction at home and the development of synthetic rubber made these less of a concern as the war went on though.
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Oct 30, 2018 14:28
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Seems to me like there should be more focuses like the Venezuela one.
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Oct 30, 2018 15:59
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they showed a bunch in the changelog
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Oct 30, 2018 16:35
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SHISHKABOB posted:Seems to me like there should be more focuses like the Venezuela one. Does kinda feel a bit like a no-brainer, though. Normally the USA has to wait until after the war has broken out to get out of its crippling economic situation. Alternatively you can kick a puppy and get out in 1937. Davincie posted:they showed a bunch in the changelog Where's the changelog?
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Oct 30, 2018 16:48
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The Venezuela intervention is one of my fav HOI4 experiences; I was the USA and rushed to war with Venezuela. Amelia wants to sign up as a pilot! Sure bring her on. Cool, free Ace for 1st Fighter Command! Event pops, Amelia has been lost attempting to circumnavigate the globe. Nope, she's still safe and sound as the resident Ace for 1st Fighter Command...  Similarly I've been Trotsky, Premier of the USSR and gotten the events for Trotsky's 4th International and my successful assassination of Trotsky. I just imagine Trotsky's Permanent Revolution at that point as being like the gag in Squidbillies where the Sheriff fires his gun into the air "EVERYONE DOWN!" and everyone gets on the ground, followed by Sheriff yelling "ME TOO!" and also laying down.
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Oct 30, 2018 16:52
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i meant dev diary, but here: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/hoi-4-dev-diary-america-rework.1116768/
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Oct 30, 2018 16:58
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You mean the "War Plan Gold" and "War Plan Black" things? They don't give you the ability to declare war on those countries, they just give you combat bonuses against those countries for a while.
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Oct 30, 2018 17:03
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the new focus tree shows several focuses for invading others (like everything under the war powers act) and the whole intervention mechanic. unless you mean something different
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Oct 30, 2018 18:07
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Davincie posted:the new focus tree shows several focuses for invading others (like everything under the war powers act) and the whole intervention mechanic. unless you mean something different From what I understood, the warplans are just plans that you can enact via decision that give you temporary combat bonuses against the nation in question. In terms of actually going to war, there is a new system where the US can issue protests against certain actions (Anschluss, Sudetenland, Poland, etc) and if you get three, you can try to get congress to declare war. But I think this is only for the limited intervention path of the tree, if you take the historical path, you need to wait until you get dragged in like normal.
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Oct 30, 2018 18:16
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other than spawning level 10 forts what’s a way to get the AI to stop attacking fruitlessly? the Germans have spent 6 million lives to reach the Byelorussian swamps and show no signs of ending the meat grinder
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Oct 30, 2018 19:08
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Raskolnikov38 posted:other than spawning level 10 forts what’s a way to get the AI to stop attacking fruitlessly? the Germans have spent 6 million lives to reach the Byelorussian swamps and show no signs of ending the meat grinder You could try this mod. https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=741805475
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Oct 30, 2018 19:15
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Dramicus posted:From what I understood, the warplans are just plans that you can enact via decision that give you temporary combat bonuses against the nation in question. In terms of actually going to war, there is a new system where the US can issue protests against certain actions (Anschluss, Sudetenland, Poland, etc) and if you get three, you can try to get congress to declare war. But I think this is only for the limited intervention path of the tree, if you take the historical path, you need to wait until you get dragged in like normal. no no i get that, i was saying that there were focuses and decisions to get into war, that don't involve the warplans
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Oct 30, 2018 19:20
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Try 2 as France, went with Little Entente, popped a democratic revolution in Italy to mess them up. Germany declared on me, but hasn't bothered invading Belgium so they're just farting around the Maginot Line losing. Italy is gone, and leftist Spain won so I assume I'm safe from getting owned by southern fascists this time. How does the game determine who gets what territory? Like my last game I pushed into Italy but the USA and Canada ended up getting everything.
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Oct 30, 2018 20:46
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If you occupy while attacking from territory controlled by your ally then it will go to your ally (unless it's an airborne or naval invasion then it goes to you). You can also request through the diplomatic menu to gain control of occupied territory, whether or not they accept depends on your/their war contribution score as well as how much you/they control already. During the peace conference your war contribution determines how many points you get to spend in the first round. Whoever is officially occupying each territory gets a discount on annexing it, so try to get occupation rights to any provinces you want prior to the peace conference screen. bees everywhere fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Oct 30, 2018 |
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Oct 30, 2018 21:30
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Ah bummer, yeah in this game attacking Germany from allied Italy, so they're just getting everything.
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Oct 30, 2018 21:51
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Strudel Man posted:Now, I haven't seen the original source on this for myself, but: You know what, let's have a short history lesson about life in rural Russia after the "liberation" of the serfs, because that's kinda necessary to understand the whole concept of the "kulak" as a seperate class. See, first of all, the liberation of the serfs was rather less effective in practice than it was on paper. The nobility was to be monetarily compensated for the loss of their serfs, with said peasant serfs being the ones who had to pay for it. Problem being, of course, that they had no money - in many cases quite literally so, with most trade on the village level done via barter and dues to the nobility paid in goods. Additionally, the nobility kept the land, so the newly liberated and now endebted serfs also had to now pay rent to the nobles. To add another problem, individual small-scale agriculture with the technology and quality of arable land/climate avaiable was not exactly sustainable - a good year meant that a small farm would produce barely a surplus while a bad year meant either more debt or starvation. The only way this entire system was sustainable at all was the formation of the village commune. The commune would collectively rent the land from the noble, pool their harvest together and collectively pay the rent. The side-effect of this was that once you were part of the commune, you didn't get to leave. As the rent was determined by the land, not the number of people, someone leaving meant that everyone else in the commune would have to pay their share for them. So if you wanted to leave, you'd have to pay compensation or your own neighbours in the commune would force you to stay. This was of course practically impossible to save up to, just as had been practically impossible for a serf to scrounge together the money to buy himself free in the old days before the liberation. So tl;dr: What the liberation of the serfs actually achieved was turning the serfs into de facto self-policing debt-slaves. They remained fucntionally bound to the land, now via the commune, and kept having to pay their dues to the nobility, now just in the form of rent. Even by the time of the revolution, most peasants still hadn't even been able to pay off the debt their families owed to the nobility for being liberated from serfdom. Now, enter the kulak. The kulaks became the winners in this whole sordid tale by being able to take advantage of a quirk of the new system: That the rent was on the land, not the infrastructure. So if you were the guy owning the local mill or creamery or grain silos or smithy or even just an important bridge or similar? Well congratulations, you now have a monopoly on virtually un-taxed, vital local services and you're going to be able to milk the rest of the commune for all its worth and get rich (by the standards of russian peasantry). Because of that, you'll also be about the only guy in town who handles actual money on a regular basis. Which means you also quickly become the local money lender. And as you over time accumulate the wealth and debts of virtually everyone in the commune, you become practically the local deputy landlord as the noble realises that he can save money by having you collect the rent and pay him instead of him needing to organise that poo poo himself. And of course you hire up a few local toughs to "keep the peace" and ensure that all of this works smoothly. Your own farming? Well, technically you're still a peasant, but in practice you can have others work the fields for you. Oh, and you of course oppose any attempt to meaningfully change this state of affairs - after all, if all these other suckers get out of the hole, you'd no longer be the biggest game in town. And as always, kicking down is easier than climbing up. Then the revolution happens and the peasants just outright seize the land from the nobility. But everyone in the commune is still dirt-poor, small-scale agriculture is still an economic basket case and they all still owe money to the kulak who still has his local infrastruture and money-lending monopoly, and can in fact ratchet up his prices and through that pocket the money that once went to the noble while preserving his position of power. Some peasants decide to leave and just sell their newly-aquired land to the kulak (because nobody else in town has that kind of money; which also means the kulak is free to rip them off due to being the local monopoly buyer) who then rents it out to the commune himself, further cementing his local position of power and basically becoming the new noble. (This trend of peasants selling off their newly-seized land and leaving btw was why the USSR suddenly started to experience a rapid increase in urbanisation in the 1920's.) So, in short, the kulak was technically an "independent farmer" in 1930. In practice he was more akin to a mixture between a plantation owner or Pullman-town robber baron, with elements of an usurer and a crime boss thrown in for good measure. Then the Soviets attempt to seriously reform and modernise agriculture. The reason for that was that they needed money to actually kickstart industrialisation. The only practicable way to get money with what the USSR had was agricultural exports. To get agricultural exports, you need to produce a meaningful surplus. Which the existing system was not capable of. Resources and trained manpower were also scarce (the results of soviet educational reforms didn't really kick in until the late 30's/early40's). Collectivization into larger operation able to profit from economy of scale and better ability to make use of the scarce technical resources and trained manpower was pretty much the only realistic option to meaningfully improve it in a timely manner. The only "alternative" to that was sitting there and twiddling their thumbs hoping for a miracle. So the kulaks see this happening and of course realise that it going through means that (even if they go along and get compensated for it) they're about to lose their power to lord it over their little quasi-fiefdoms and will become the equal of all the other peasants again. And so they just outright sabotage or rebel openly or even start burning poo poo down out of spite. And the state reacts to this just about the way you'd expect a functioning state apparatus to react to what was practically an open insurrection by a specific population group. Frankly, if you want to criticise the Soviets for loving up the kulaks, you might as well start criticising the US government for taking away the property of all these poor innocent southern plantation owners during/after the American Civil War. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 30, 2018 22:44
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Started a game as Brazil and yeah its far and away the best latin american country. I'll have to settle with this until Mexico gets its DLC. The only awful thing that seems unique to Brazil is how slow units move through any of the forest areas. Makes sense considering its the literal amazon, but screw the little European enclaves up north in particular.
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Oct 30, 2018 22:55
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maybe if stalin hadn't utterly bungled the two weeks before and after barbarossa he could have afforded to kill less people
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Oct 30, 2018 23:02
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On the other hand, you could be persecuted as a kulak because you owned something with a motor. Also, I'm slightly insulted that you think I or anyone would believe that the soviets would have compensated them for seized property. Gimmie a break. Strudel Man fucked around with this message at 23:12 on Oct 30, 2018 |
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Oct 30, 2018 23:09
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Magni posted:Frankly, if you want to criticise the Soviets for loving up the kulaks, you might as well start criticising the US government for taking away the property of all these poor innocent southern plantation owners during/after the American Civil War. Most of the people who do one already tend towards the other as well
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Oct 30, 2018 23:20
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I can't wait to drop kick Stalin as multiple flavors of Mexico in the Man the Guns expansion for hit Paradox game Hearts of Iron IV.
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Oct 30, 2018 23:34
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Funky Valentine posted:I can't wait to drop kick Stalin as multiple flavors of Mexico in the Man the Guns expansion for hit Paradox game Hearts of Iron IV. yeah i gotta say tankie time has really turned me around on the dlc
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Oct 30, 2018 23:36
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Stalin could probably have killed fewer people; as I said before I'm a record score-holder in Stalin's Dilemma and I managed it with killing only 4 million people, which is basically better than Stalin did irl. That said, it's really strange how skewed the views are on the situation. You think it's cheap to hire a bunch of American experts to come design American-style tractor plants in Stalingrad? The Czar could borrow money to finance Russia's industrialization. You think anyone does business with the Bolsheviks other than cash on the barrelhead?
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Oct 30, 2018 23:46
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appropriatemetaphor posted:Ah bummer, yeah in this game attacking Germany from allied Italy, so they're just getting everything. But what they hold during the war is not necessarily the same as what they will hold after the peace conference. If your war score is higher then you will be in a position to make territorial demands.
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Oct 31, 2018 00:06
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I'm usually not too concerned about the peace conference (assuming the game ever reaches that point) it's more so having control of territory during a war gives you access to all the factories and resources that lie within. It also allows you to build/repair things as necessary instead of relying on the idiot AI to figure it out. I often found myself having to cheese the system by paradropping into border provinces that are empty and pushing ahead from there, or invading from adjacent sea zones while having nearby troops assist attack instead of moving into the territory to make sure I take control of it instead of an ally.
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Oct 31, 2018 00:13
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bees everywhere posted:If you occupy while attacking from territory controlled by your ally then it will go to your ally (unless it's an airborne or naval invasion then it goes to you). You can also request through the diplomatic menu to gain control of occupied territory, whether or not they accept depends on your/their war contribution score as well as how much you/they control already. I think there is an exception to the "it will go to whoever's territory was attacked from" rule which is if someone has cores or claims on the territory, it will go to them regardless of who in their alliance takes it. I'm not sure how it handles multiple cores from nations in the same alliance but I'm not sure if that ever comes up in the base game. The only way to get cores/claims is through focuses so most people aren't going to have them on anything that isn't their starting territory.
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Oct 31, 2018 00:32
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The Cheshire Cat posted:I'm not sure how it handles multiple cores from nations in the same alliance but I'm not sure if that ever comes up in the base game. The only way to get cores/claims is through focuses so most people aren't going to have them on anything that isn't their starting territory. Happens all the time whenever I try a Mao game with the nationalists in my faction. I always move into new provinces from my own territory but they'll still mostly flip to the nationalists for no reason that I can figure out. And of course a province will never once go to me when the AI Chinese occupy stuff.
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Oct 31, 2018 01:32
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I love how this thread has become derailed by people who unironically accept soviet propaganda as 100% fact and start their arguments from that base.
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Oct 31, 2018 01:32
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Ein Sexmonster posted:I love how this thread has become derailed by people who unironically accept soviet propaganda as 100% fact and start their arguments from that base. loving owned
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Oct 31, 2018 01:37
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Ein Sexmonster posted:I love how this thread has become derailed by people who unironically accept soviet propaganda as 100% fact and start their arguments from that base.
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Oct 31, 2018 01:41
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420 Gank Mid posted:Thank god nobody is doing the exact same thing with nazi propaganda Nobody is.
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Oct 31, 2018 01:55
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you'd think the mod coming in and telling people to cool down would have cooled things down
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Oct 31, 2018 02:32
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Yeah, I'm sorry I lost it and replied again.
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Oct 31, 2018 02:34
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Clearly non-aligned is the best team.
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Oct 31, 2018 02:43
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Wild Horses posted:Clearly non-aligned is the best team. I like how the KMT chose to flood a huge part of China, killing millions of their own people in an attempt to stop the Japanese army, which failed and had absolutely no effect on the fighting apart from the huge number of refugees it created.
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Oct 31, 2018 02:45
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Wild Horses posted:Clearly non-aligned is the best team. neutrality in the face of fascism is support of fascism imo
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Oct 31, 2018 02:48
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non-aligned is this weird potpourri of monarchies and fascists who didn't sign up with the axis and neutral liberal democracies it really needs a better name
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Oct 31, 2018 03:23
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Where the gently caress is Trotsky in a sombrero.
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Oct 31, 2018 03:28
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