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Euphoriaphone posted:Voting for Stein in 2016 was colossally dumb, arguably even dumber than voting for Clinton. Stein was a known idiot by the 2016 election with bad views, and willing to back irrational positions for the support (anti-vaxxers). If you're going to protest vote for someone, just write-in your dream candidate. Picking the third box when that person also sucks is just a more extreme version of voting for the lesser evil. If you're knowingly voting for the lesser evil, then you should at least pick someone who has a chance of winning, otherwise why even bother? Why waste your energy yelling at 1 person for their vote when it literally doesn't matter on a national level? The closest national election we had was still like a 1300 vote difference. If you got every single D&D poster to vote the way you want them too, you still couldn't clear that margin. Why do you care?
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Oct 31, 2018 00:32
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WampaLord posted:Why do you care? Uh, because we're all posting about politics on a dead comedy forum? Obviously nothing we collectively discuss here is going to have an actual impact on any election, but we still post here for entertainment; not for utilitarian reasons. If I was talking to someone in person and they mentioned they voted for Stein I'd probably call them an idiot, but I agree with you there's no point in actively seeking out Stein voters to lambast them.
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Oct 31, 2018 00:39
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HootTheOwl posted:Honestly I think this just says more about McCain/Trump than it does supporters of either Clinton or Bernie. For whatever it's worth on this: https://twitter.com/aaron_strauss/status/900361632747896834 https://twitter.com/b_schaffner/status/900376391966904320 https://twitter.com/b_schaffner/status/900174960500645888 The latter numbers are from CCES-which uses responses only from voters that it validated as having voted in both the general and the primary elections that year(and Schaffner notes that there's minimal difference between registered Dems and overall, which would throw water on open vs closed primary theories). Based on the way Schaffner's phrased it, it sounds as if the 3% was the total "stay home + vote Trump + vote other" number for Hillary '16 (compared to the Bernie numbers in the final tweet). So in 2008 the Dem defection/abstention rate was 13%(winner/Obama) vs 30% (runnerup/Clinton) while in 2016 that was 3%(winner/Clinton) vs 25%(runnerup/Sanders). Whether the difference between winner/runnerup is meaningful (or as meaningful as the difference between runners up), YMMV. The reason for the difference between cycles is basically an inkblot as well. But it's nice to ground things with numbers. Also the CCES is such a loving fantastic resource.
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Oct 31, 2018 00:40
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Euphoriaphone posted:Voting for Stein in 2016 was colossally dumb, arguably even dumber than voting for Clinton. Stein was a known idiot by the 2016 election with bad views, and willing to back irrational positions for the support (anti-vaxxers). If you're going to protest vote for someone, just write-in your dream candidate. Picking the third box when that person also sucks is just a more extreme version of voting for the lesser evil. If you're knowingly voting for the lesser evil, then you should at least pick someone who has a chance of winning, otherwise why even bother? this is why i wrote in gloria la riva
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Oct 31, 2018 00:41
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Seyser Koze posted:I think my favorite (read: not favorite) part was the overnight pivot from trumpeting Hillary's inevitability to "well of course this happened, anybody could've told you that we're just too good to win in this nasty sinful racist country." It was honestly astonishing to watch the immediate flip from calling everyone to their left racist for suggesting policies that might, somewhere, somehow, help at least one Poor White Person to an explanation that actively says Racisming Is The Only Electoral Path.
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Oct 31, 2018 00:44
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Verus posted:How many of us didn't vote? I voted for the goddamned centrists, and I'm going to vote for loving Menendez this time. They have my vote forever because the alternative is fascism and I have the privilege to not be hurt by most of the democrats' horrible policies. Yeah, they like to say "non-voters are all just privileged enough to not be hurt by Republicans," but I feel like that's actually kinda the opposite of reality in most cases. Most people currently suffering are suffering for reasons that would persist under a Democratic administration, so it's especially rich for someone (who is almost invariably very privileged themselves) to act like other people are, in fact, the privileged ones for being demoralized about not having any options that would improve their situation. YOLOsubmarine posted:I’m no Clinton fan but I took it as her taking a snide shot at the reporter. It’s weirdly combative though, and I also don’t think politicians doing ironic racism is really any better than doing actual racism, so I don’t think it excuses anything. Your interpretation is very obviously correct in context, but I agree completely about it being bizarrely combative (likely, in my opinion, due to the interviewer taking a critical tone with her, which is something your average powerful rich person, like Clinton, doesn't take kindly to). Paracaidas posted:The latter numbers are from CCES-which uses responses only from voters that it validated as having voted in both the general and the primary elections that year(and Schaffner notes that there's minimal difference between registered Dems and overall, which would throw water on open vs closed primary theories). Based on the way Schaffner's phrased it, it sounds as if the 3% was the total "stay home + vote Trump + vote other" number for Hillary '16 (compared to the Bernie numbers in the final tweet). You're just kinda casually sliding in a conflation of "defection" with "defection + abstention" in this post, despite there being an important distinction between those things (and defection being the specific thing discussed). edit: I'm also struggling to come up with any sort of plausible relevance to the comparison of winner abstention/defection to runner-up abstention/defection. It's possible I'm missing something, but I can't think of any reason to care about that. Defection/abstention for the winner might tell you something related to how it compares to defection/abstention when compared with other winners, and but I can't see any reason to compare it with runner-up defection/abstention and then compare that figure across elections. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 01:37 on Oct 31, 2018 |
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Oct 31, 2018 01:21
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I think as long as you don't vote for Republicans any non-Democratic vote is basically morally equal - there's no real difference between voting Libertarian/Green/writing in John Cena. Like I wouldn't vote for Jill Stein because she's poo poo but morally speaking I don't think there's any difference between voting for her and writing in. This also assumes there's no viable third party candidate, of course.
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Oct 31, 2018 01:33
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Ytlaya posted:Yeah, they like to say "non-voters are all just privileged enough to not be hurt by Republicans," but I feel like that's actually kinda the opposite of reality in most cases. Most people currently suffering are suffering for reasons that would persist under a Democratic administration, so it's especially rich for someone (who is almost invariably very privileged themselves) to act like other people are, in fact, the privileged ones for being demoralized about not having any options that would improve their situation. This is demonstrably true and it baffles me when people say things like “you need to vote dem to protect minorities or the poor” when minority turnout is historically lower than white turnout, even factoring in the effects of voter suppression laws, and voter turnout increases as you go up the income scale. So it seems like the obvious question is, if Dems are so good for those people then why don’t they show up at ballot box and vote for them? Either those people are too stupid to know what’s good for them and need white liberal saviors, or they don’t actually have any faith in the Dems to help them because they’ve been paying attention. I personally think it’s the second one but I’m sure plenty of folks in the Trump thread take the white man’s burden approach.
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Oct 31, 2018 01:35
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Thread premise: Validated (again!!!!!!) https://twitter.com/jonward11/status/1057409498112057361
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Oct 31, 2018 01:35
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Thread premise: Validated (again!!!!!!) But you gotta vote blue no matter who, even if it means that the Democratic Party becomes just as xenophobic and racist as the GOP
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Oct 31, 2018 01:39
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Thread premise: Validated (again!!!!!!) wegottagetmoreracist.txt
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Oct 31, 2018 01:39
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YOLOsubmarine posted:This is demonstrably true and it baffles me when people say things like “you need to vote dem to protect minorities or the poor” when minority turnout is historically lower than white turnout, even factoring in the effects of voter suppression laws, and voter turnout increases as you go up the income scale. These folks will correctly point out that people will be hurt under Republicans who aren't hurt under Democrats, or they'll be hurt more under Republicans, but the really huge thing they ignore is that way more people will be hurt regardless of who is elected. For most people in need, there isn't much benefit to voting either Democratic or Republican (or the benefit is small enough that their lives will still be lovely, even if marginally less so). Frightening Knight posted:I think as long as you don't vote for Republicans any non-Democratic vote is basically morally equal - there's no real difference between voting Libertarian/Green/writing in John Cena. My somewhat-embarrassing confession is that I voted Jill Stein in 2012 because 1. I didn't live in a swing state and 2. she was the only one on the ballot and I was lazy about figuring out where to write-in a name. I had gone into the booth intending to vote for the Socialist Party candidate, but they weren't listed. The reasoning I used at the time was "well, better to run up the tally for the most prominent left-y alternative," but the real reason is that I was just lazy. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 01:45 on Oct 31, 2018 |
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Oct 31, 2018 01:42
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theCalamity posted:But you gotta vote blue no matter who, even if it means that the Democratic Party becomes just as xenophobic and racist as the GOP Look, white supremacists need a voice in government too, and isn’t it better for everyone if that voice has a D next to their name on the congressional rolls?
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Oct 31, 2018 01:45
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Thread premise: Validated (again!!!!!!) The Bustos Strategy lives. jfc Joe, so goddamn bad.
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Oct 31, 2018 01:45
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You'd think that the average D&D lib would realize that it's not privileged leftists who are staying home and not voting. It's mostly PoC, especially Latinos:  Notice how presidential election year turn out drops pretty sharply for Latinos in 1996 and reverses a growth trend after 2008. And for midterms it's been a long term decline that sees its biggest drop form 2010 to 2014. It's not an accident that these sharp declines happen around 1996 (the year Bill Clinton signed IIRIRA) and after 2010 (the Obama administration made the Secure Communities program, which makes local law enforcement cooperate with ICE, mandatory across all jurisdictions in the country starting in 2013 So while Latinxs that turn out to vote still tend to vote overwhelmingly democratic, there's been increasing apathy, and it's not an accident that it tends to correlate with democrats selling out Latinxs for cred with the "reasonable republicans."
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Oct 31, 2018 01:46
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Thread premise: Validated (again!!!!!!) jesus gently caress
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Oct 31, 2018 01:52
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I’d say the only marginalized group that democrats are notably better for policy wise (as opposed to rhetorically) are LGBTQ. If you’re poor or brown or both they’ve been incredibly lovely for decades now.
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Oct 31, 2018 01:54
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Ytlaya posted:My somewhat-embarrassing confession is that I voted Jill Stein in 2012 because 1. I didn't live in a swing state and 2. she was the only one on the ballot and I was lazy about figuring out where to write-in a name. I had gone into the booth intending to vote for the Socialist Party candidate, but they weren't listed. The reasoning I used at the time was "well, better to run up the tally for the most prominent left-y alternative," but the real reason is that I was just lazy. Yea, this was basically my reasoning too, and also this was before she had made some of her stupider claims (like WiFi causing cancer)
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Oct 31, 2018 02:23
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YOLOsubmarine posted:I’d say the only marginalized group that democrats are notably better for policy wise (as opposed to rhetorically) are LGBTQ. If you’re poor or brown or both they’ve been incredibly lovely for decades now. Even then, just the first 2 letters. Us trans people just get thrown under the bus so bills for L and G people to make it more “reasonable” 
PenguinKnight fucked around with this message at 02:49 on Oct 31, 2018 |
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Oct 31, 2018 02:46
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E: ^^^ Presidential hopeful Warren couldn't be bothered to show up to a trans rights rally in Boston that her fellow Senator and Boston mayor found time to attend.YOLOsubmarine posted:I’d say the only marginalized group that democrats are notably better for policy wise (as opposed to rhetorically) are LGBTQ. If you’re poor or brown or both they’ve been incredibly lovely for decades now. Most of the strides in gay rights have been won in the courts by their own hand though. Obama's great contribution to the gay rights battle was abstaining from defending DOMA. 'Democrats helped gay rights' is a narrative that doesn't really seem to have a lot of grounding in reality. In terms of 'what have they done lately' what natural constituency can the Dems really claim? Drug company execs?
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Oct 31, 2018 03:23
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https://twitter.com/HotlineJosh/status/1057425937980100610 Melting. Down.
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Oct 31, 2018 03:37
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Not a Step posted:Most of the strides in gay rights have been won in the courts by their own hand though. Obama's great contribution to the gay rights battle was abstaining from defending DOMA. 'Democrats helped gay rights' is a narrative that doesn't really seem to have a lot of grounding in reality. The Obama admin extended title nine protections to cover gender identity and fought dumb poo poo like bathroom laws. The Trump admin is currently attempted to erase trans identity. That’s a notable difference even if Dems have been pretty useless legislatively, at least at the federal level.
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Oct 31, 2018 03:38
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Euphoriaphone posted:Voting for Stein in 2016 was colossally dumb, arguably even dumber than voting for Clinton. Stein was a known idiot by the 2016 election with bad views, and willing to back irrational positions for the support (anti-vaxxers). If you're going to protest vote for someone, just write-in your dream candidate. Picking the third box when that person also sucks is just a more extreme version of voting for the lesser evil. If you're knowingly voting for the lesser evil, then you should at least pick someone who has a chance of winning, otherwise why even bother? I voted for the party more than the candidate. Nobody tallies the write in votes and asks what they mean. On the other hand if the Greens suddenly spike in popularity it sends a clearly understandable message (that people want more progressive candidates). Also LOL @ complaining about Stein's dumbass anti-vax positions when Hillary "proud to have owned slaves" Clinton had Libya on her hands and chose Tim loving Kaine as her VP. readingatwork fucked around with this message at 05:57 on Oct 31, 2018 |
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Oct 31, 2018 05:52
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readingatwork posted:I voted for the party more than the candidate. Nobody tallies the write in votes and asks what they mean. On the other hand if the Greens suddenly spike in popularity it sends a clearly understandable message (that people want more progressive candidates). I have bad news.
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Oct 31, 2018 05:58
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readingatwork posted:Also LOL @ complaining about Stein's dumbass anti-vax positions when Hillary "proud to have owned slaves" Clinton had Libya on her hands and chose Tim loving Kaine as her VP. I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that they weren't saying that you should've voted for Clinton instead, but that Stein loving sucks so she's probably not the best person to do a protest vote for.
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Oct 31, 2018 06:10
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I wrote in Conrad Gritty for Senator this year because my piece of poo poo Democratic Senator couldn't be bothered to support Medicare for All in a solid blue state. loving worthless. Well that's my protest vote story hope you liked it.
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Oct 31, 2018 06:51
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Kilroy posted:I wrote in Conrad Gritty for Senator this year because my piece of poo poo Democratic Senator couldn't be bothered to support Medicare for All in a solid blue state. loving worthless. Shoulda been Comrade Gritty. 
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Oct 31, 2018 07:08
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Frightening Knight posted:Shoulda been Comrade Gritty.
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Oct 31, 2018 07:28
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Oct 31, 2018 08:21
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Ytlaya posted:Yeah, they like to say "non-voters are all just privileged enough to not be hurt by Republicans," but I feel like that's actually kinda the opposite of reality in most cases. Most people currently suffering are suffering for reasons that would persist under a Democratic administration, so it's especially rich for someone (who is almost invariably very privileged themselves) to act like other people are, in fact, the privileged ones for being demoralized about not having any options that would improve their situation. I have been thinking about this a lot lately and have been frustrated about missing the voting chats each time they happened recently, because I've really wanted to go off on all the fucks who've been arguing that people like me basically owe the Democrats our fealty and have to vote for people who have historically been lovely towards us, so that maybe one day they might eventually deign to give us rights roughly equal to what other people have. A few have implicitly called things like trans rights "pet issues" and said that expecting basic human respect and dignity is privileged, while hiding behind those same groups as their excuse for why we have to vote for Roy Moore (D). They seem to unironically aspire to be the white moderates from MLK's letter from Birmingham Jail and believe that yes, they can set a timetable for other people's freedom.
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Oct 31, 2018 09:56
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Roland Jones posted:I have been thinking about this a lot lately and have been frustrated about missing the voting chats each time they happened recently, because I've really wanted to go off on all the fucks who've been arguing that people like me basically owe the Democrats our fealty and have to vote for people who have historically been lovely towards us, so that maybe one day they might eventually deign to give us rights roughly equal to what other people have. A few have implicitly called things like trans rights "pet issues" and said that expecting basic human respect and dignity is privileged, while hiding behind those same groups as their excuse for why we have to vote for Roy Moore (D). They seem to unironically aspire to be the white moderates from MLK's letter from Birmingham Jail and believe that yes, they can set a timetable for other people's freedom. "I hear you, and I understand your anger, but have you seen the other guy?" - the Democratic argument in its entirety
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Oct 31, 2018 10:02
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Roland Jones posted:I have been thinking about this a lot lately and have been frustrated about missing the voting chats each time they happened recently, because I've really wanted to go off on all the fucks who've been arguing that people like me basically owe the Democrats our fealty and have to vote for people who have historically been lovely towards us, so that maybe one day they might eventually deign to give us rights roughly equal to what other people have. A few have implicitly called things like trans rights "pet issues" and said that expecting basic human respect and dignity is privileged, while hiding behind those same groups as their excuse for why we have to vote for Roy Moore (D). They seem to unironically aspire to be the white moderates from MLK's letter from Birmingham Jail and believe that yes, they can set a timetable for other people's freedom. They have a timetable?
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Oct 31, 2018 14:31
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Not a Step posted:"I hear you, and I understand your anger, but have you seen the other guy?" - the Democratic argument in its entirety I think it's a little more like "We don't give a gently caress about you or your issues, but vote for us anyway because have you seen the other guy?; you have no option."
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Oct 31, 2018 14:37
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I hope Donally loses. There is no use for some dumbfuck that is so racist he wants to redefine a constitutional amendment to gently caress over minorities in any party that wants to pretend it represents them. It would he much better long term to lose a few of these trashbags this election and then gain back some seats in 2020 since the Democrats aren't taking the Senate anyway.
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Oct 31, 2018 14:51
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Also I hate this worthless shitheap so much. https://twitter.com/chucktodd/status/1056881033788964864?s=19 Dude is like kind of both sides elemental. I don't think he has a single real thought rattling around his empty skull.
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Oct 31, 2018 15:06
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Matt Taibbi is releasing chapters of his book on Substack and it's about how the media has absolutely failed us. One of the chapters is about how mediocrities like Chuck Todd manage to rise through the ranks. I recommend it.
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Oct 31, 2018 17:18
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Matt Taibbi is releasing chapters of his book on Substack and it's about how the media has absolutely failed us. One of the chapters is about how mediocrities like Chuck Todd manage to rise through the ranks. I recommend it. I liked the Divide a lot so I will check this out.
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Oct 31, 2018 17:25
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Fulchrum posted:So with two weeks to go, where are all the Joe Crowley ads that I was assured he would launch in order to try to take the election? I mean, its not like that was entirely whining about a persecution complex, there must have been SOME truth to it, after all, so where are these ads that Crowley ran? Oh, look at that, it's Fulchrum being smugly wrong about something he's so loving sure about, YET AGAIN! https://twitter.com/JediofGallifrey/status/1057673535475380225
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Oct 31, 2018 18:10
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I’m going to predict that when he comes back from cat jail, he will say that AOC is DSA and thus doesn’t count as a Democrat. gently caress Crowley tho.
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Oct 31, 2018 18:15
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If Crowley steals that seat with the help of the Democrats I will never vote for another one that isn't specifically a DSA candidate.
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Oct 31, 2018 18:19
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