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Serf posted:but then who would go to bat for the osr?? I mean, TheDiceMustRoll isn’t banned yet is he?
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Oct 31, 2018 21:22
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Nuns with Guns posted:I've never gone out of my way to read shmorky's comics and they were banned here before I registered. Maybe don't go out of your way to find perverted webcomics to psychoanalyze if you're concerned about your mental health?  my dude, you literally asked to knowThere was also a lot of behind the scenes poo poo that most people knew about WRT his partners and mental state where we knew he was abusive and perverse without having to read between the lines This is getting way off topic though
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Oct 31, 2018 21:33
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you realize that you admitting to knowing and saying nothing when no one else here knew is more on you than on anyone else, right like you just keep digging your drat hole e: basically, sorry, you are wrong, not everyone knows all about people doing awful stuff and does nothing but sit there and accept it. at the moment in this thread, this appears to be just you.
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Oct 31, 2018 21:37
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Mors Rattus posted:you realize that you admitting to knowing and saying nothing when no one else here knew is more on you than on anyone else, right If you have never known anyone or done anything morally questionable, then I sill respond to your signal and salute your virtue, you paragon of goodness, you king of kings quote:e: basically, sorry, you are wrong, not everyone knows all about people doing awful stuff and does nothing but sit there and accept it. at the moment in this thread, this appears to be just you. You are arguing that your ignorance of a topic alleviates you of responsibility. Shmorky being a weirdo was not hard information to find. I'm sorry. You dont need to reach for rationalizations like this. Mirthless fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Oct 31, 2018 |
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Oct 31, 2018 21:41
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Mirthless posted:If you have never known anyone or done anything morally questionable, then I sill respond to your signal and salute your virtue, you paragon of goodness, you king of kings This retort is weaker than a STR 3 wizard, cut your losses and go post in an OSR forum son
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Oct 31, 2018 21:44
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Mirthless posted:
I asked because it clearly wasn't widespread knowledge before the outing so I don't see why you'd leap to shaming all of SA for "accepting" shmorky. Particularly when they were driven off the forums and lowtax despised them for years before it. Like is blaming all of SA for Aatrek too old hat now?
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Oct 31, 2018 21:44
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Mirthless posted:If you have never known anyone or done anything morally questionable, then I sill respond to your signal and salute your virtue, you paragon of goodness, you king of kings I certainly have not covered for or accepted a known pedophile, which is literally what you admitted to, dude
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Oct 31, 2018 21:44
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Mirthless posted:If you have never known anyone or done anything morally questionable, then I sill respond to your signal and salute your virtue, you paragon of goodness, you king of kings you have to work your way around to it because the post is very badly written and stupid, but lol at "virtue signaling"
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Oct 31, 2018 21:44
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Nuns with Guns posted:I asked because it clearly wasn't widespread knowledge before the outing so I don't see why you'd leap to shaming all of SA for "accepting" shmorky. Particularly when they were driven off the forums and lowtax despised them for years before it. Like is blaming all of SA for Aatrek too old hat now? Like... That was the whole point. I wasnt shaming SA. I was trying to say its weird to blame an entire community for tolerating its worst members. If it felt unfair, mission accomplished
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Oct 31, 2018 21:48
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The difference is that any healthy community rejects the gently caress out of its worst members. Whereas OSR, as a community, just normalizes them, goes to bat for their honor, or shrugs because "What can I do about our unending campaigns of harassment?"
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Oct 31, 2018 21:53
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Serf posted:you have to work your way around to it because the post is very badly written and stupid, but lol at "virtue signaling" I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed this.
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Oct 31, 2018 21:53
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...um, literally yes, if someone is ignorant of a pedophile, they are literally incapable of reporting them? you are literally saying you were aware and you didn't like, this is not hard your hill to die on is literally 'clearly everyone has failed to report a pedophile they knew was a pedophile' which is frankly insane
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Oct 31, 2018 21:54
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ProfessorCirno posted:I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed this. I wasn't trying to hide it, good god
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Oct 31, 2018 21:54
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Mirthless posted:Like... That was the whole point. I wasnt shaming SA. I was trying to say its weird to blame an entire community for tolerating its worst members. Nah actually that's normal and good and why communities should kick out their worst members. e: The fact that you use 'virtue signalling' unironically is a huge red flag too
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Oct 31, 2018 21:54
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Mirthless posted:I wasn't trying to hide it, good god you really should be lol
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Oct 31, 2018 21:54
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Mirthless jumping in to provide first hand proof the OSR is full of shitheads and dipshits. EDIT: "The OSR isn't bad, they're good people, like me, who has a mile long rap sheet defending the worst stuff possible, and who use fashy memes in my casual posts!"
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Oct 31, 2018 21:56
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Mirthless posted:Like... That was the whole point. I wasnt shaming SA. I was trying to say its weird to blame an entire community for tolerating its worst members. They're not equivocal though. Because the shittiness of particular OSR writers is widely known by their peers. And nobody speaks out about it. That is why people here complain about the OSR community.
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Oct 31, 2018 21:56
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Mors Rattus posted:...um, literally yes, if someone is ignorant of a pedophile, they are literally incapable of reporting them? I didn't know anything more than the rest of the community did you weirdo. I never knew shmorky personally and didnt need to to know any of these things. What was i supposed to report, to whom? Do you think lowtax didnt know shmorky was a weird unstable pervert? Did you expect me to call the police and say "officer! Dave Kelley made a comic about a guy molesting a child and passed it off as satire, do something!" This is getting way off topic and going nowhere so im just going to drop it. Sorry everybody.
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Oct 31, 2018 21:59
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see, the thing here then, the thing you aren't getting is that everyone knows the OSR is full of fascists and can list them off and no, I expect you to not, like, defend or associate with a pedophile, much as I expect good people to not defend or associate with the OSR just keep digging your loving hole
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Oct 31, 2018 21:59
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HopperUK posted:e: The fact that you use 'virtue signalling' unironically is a huge red flag too Yeah there's no real good faith to be found in any argument that uses that.
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Oct 31, 2018 22:10
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Joe Slowboat posted:Yeah there's no real good faith to be found in any argument that uses that.
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Oct 31, 2018 22:14
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that you think 'I refuse to associate with and cover for pedophiles or fascists' is a bad faith argument says so much about you, really
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Oct 31, 2018 22:15
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Mors Rattus posted:that you think 'I refuse to associate with and cover for pedophiles or fascists' is a bad faith argument says so much about you, really This is also a bad faith argument
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Oct 31, 2018 22:17
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According to a supporter of Holden, we teamed up with reddit's Kotaku In action (gamergate) to deliberately slander him. Which, you know, is an interesting narrative, and i'm sure they didn't get that from holden continuing to perpetuate his 'I did nothing wrong and was cruely banned for defending women' that he's been perpetuating for a year. Also, as I know you'll be reading this, gently caress you holden you enabling piece of poo poo.Nuns with Guns posted:They're not equivocal though. Because the shittiness of particular OSR writers is widely known by their peers. And nobody speaks out about it. That is why people here complain about the OSR community. It's not even just that they don't speak out about it, it's that they defend it. They lie about it, they're a cult, bought into the tribalism where any attack on one of them is an attack on all.
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Oct 31, 2018 22:18
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Mirthless posted:This is also a bad faith argument don't sign your posts
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Oct 31, 2018 22:19
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Mirthless, do you agree that paedophiles are bad? What about fascists? This is the most important question. Assuming an affirmative answer (which, at this point, it might not be wise), here's the follow-up: Why do you, knowing that these people are bad, are so dead-set on defending a community that cheerfully supports them, and will look the other way before doing anything about it?
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Oct 31, 2018 22:27
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PST posted:According to a supporter of Holden, we teamed up with reddit's Kotaku In action (gamergate) to deliberately slander him. Which, you know, is an interesting narrative, and i'm sure they didn't get that from holden continuing to perpetuate his 'I did nothing wrong and was cruely banned for defending women' that he's been perpetuating for a year. Also, as I know you'll be reading this, gently caress you holden you enabling piece of poo poo. I would remiss to skip an opportunity to point that Holden Shearer is a huge rear end in a top hat who chose to defend his good friend John Morke. John Morke has openly and disgustingly sexually harassed people I know and care about personally, and should be defended by no one. Holden's continual support of Morke shows that he too is someone who does not deserve to be listened to, no matter how much leftist language he uses. Holden is an accomplice to abuse and trauma and while he's not the very worst person in the industry, the continued support he receives from progressives and leftists sickens and disgusts me.
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Oct 31, 2018 22:34
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The OSR huffs farts.
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Oct 31, 2018 22:47
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Meinberg posted:I would remiss to skip an opportunity to point that Holden Shearer is a huge rear end in a top hat who chose to defend his good friend John Morke. John Morke has openly and disgustingly sexually harassed people I know and care about personally, and should be defended by no one. Holden's continual support of Morke shows that he too is someone who does not deserve to be listened to, no matter how much leftist language he uses. Holden is an accomplice to abuse and trauma and while he's not the very worst person in the industry, the continued support he receives from progressives and leftists sickens and disgusts me.
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Oct 31, 2018 22:58
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paradoxGentleman posted:Mirthless, do you agree that paedophiles are bad? What about fascists? Of course quote:Assuming an affirmative answer (which, at this point, it might not be wise),  yepbut then again. neither is spending time posting on an internet forum, and we're all doing it anyway quote:here's the follow-up: Why do you, knowing that these people are bad, are so dead-set on defending a community that cheerfully supports them, and will look the other way before doing anything about it? A handful, even a big handful, of loud and terrible people don't define the entire community; and because it's not my responsibility to police the behavior of everyone around me. I don't know what all the other people in the OSR are doing or what their opinions are and a lot of the time that I have made those assumptions in that community I have been wrong. If someone I know is accused of something legitimately terrible I will go out of my way to find out the details and if they did something unacceptable i will cut them out of my life. I have done it plenty of times before and am prepared to do it again. It's the same thing I do here and in any other community I am a part of. I'm not saying "give these people and their friends a free pass" so I'm sorry if it came across that way. But, uh, their moderates view us the same way we view them, right down to the same accusations of fascism, sexism, etc. I've said the same things to OSR people about our own community. This isn't a partisan politics, right/left issue and we don't need to treat it like it is. edit: i should qualify that last statement with: I don't mean, 'don't care about people's politics', i mean, 'OSR is not a political affiliation and does not describe a political viewpoint'. I just don't see why this has to be so Us Vs. Them. There doesn't have to be sides. There never had to be sides. Mirthless fucked around with this message at 23:27 on Oct 31, 2018 |
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Oct 31, 2018 23:00
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Mirthless posted:A handful, even a big handful, of loud and terrible people don't define the entire community; and because it's not my responsibility to police the behavior of everyone around me. If not yours (and ours, and everyone's), then whose? How do we hold people accountable if we don't all take a stand against rank bullshit?
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Oct 31, 2018 23:26
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There does, in fact, have to be sides: fascists, and against fascists. Y'all gonna put up with fascists in your community, you are aiding and abetting them. That is how they thrive - by people letting them.
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Oct 31, 2018 23:35
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Mirthless posted:A handful, even a big handful, of loud and terrible people don't define the entire community; and because it's not my responsibility to police the behavior of everyone around me. I don't know what all the other people in the OSR are doing or what their opinions are and a lot of the time that I have made those assumptions in that community I have been wrong. If someone I know is accused of something legitimately terrible I will go out of my way to find out the details and if they did something unacceptable i will cut them out of my life. I have done it plenty of times before and am prepared to do it again. It's the same thing I do here and in any other community I am a part of. From my perspective, there's a couple of names I recognise in the OSR movement who are not racist, misogynists who want to promote cross-burning and winkwink subhuman monsters in their games. And then there's everyone else, who probably do. The thing is the entire OSR movement has supported the racists, supported the homophobes and misogynists and 'who cares about your fetish but why are you sticking it in a game' bullshit. who've been behind the manipulation and corruption of the ennies and broadly are firmly behind gamergate and comicsgate and are just loving nazis. So outside of a couple of people and even they could do a better job, but perfect is the enemy of good, the entire rest of the OSR community supports nazis and facist wankers. And I spent time looking, and I spent time reading, and after a while it was blatantly clear that it was harder to find people who didn't support them, than who did, and there was an awful lot of 'well I don't agree, but no one should be allowed to criticise rape mc rape the rapist defender as a concept'. So, gently caress it, the whole community is damned by association, just as there are probably a handful of people who still think gamergate is about 'accountability in video game journalism' while the rest are all just alt-right the subreddit mark 2.
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Oct 31, 2018 23:35
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Mirthless posted:edit: i should qualify that last statement with: I don't mean, 'don't care about people's politics', i mean, 'OSR is not a political affiliation and does not describe a political viewpoint'. I just don't see why this has to be so Us Vs. Them. There doesn't have to be sides. There never had to be sides. Okay, so I think this may be the crux of your argument and where you're most wrong. All things have an ideological bent to them, though some to a greater or lesser degree. Media in particular has ideology inherently baked into it. The stories we tell have a huge impact and relation to how we think about the world. And interactive media like roleplaying games are especially emblematic of the way that the designers and the game runners and the players view the world. They are riddled with bias, some examined, some not. The OSR and its attempts to hearken back to some forgone era while also being about narratives where strong men (mostly men) seek to triumph over the forces of evil through martial and mystical prowess. These narratives are inherently problematic as I've argued in the past and will continue to argue today. By choosing these to be the primary narratives that they create, people in the OSR are buying into an ideology, an ideology that can very quickly become toxic and that is very easily embraced by people who are already toxic.
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Oct 31, 2018 23:40
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Transient People posted:If not yours (and ours, and everyone's), then whose? How do we hold people accountable if we don't all take a stand against rank bullshit? Can you really call out everyone around you who has problematic viewpoints? Every single person? I get what you mean, I really do. I don't disagree with you. But, personally, do you actually do that in your life? Every family member, every friend, people you know professionally? Like, some people in the OSR get flak for who they work for and what's up with that? What are your boss's political viewpoints? Can you police your co-workers? Professional peers? You also have to set a bar, and where does the bar get set? What's the minimum amount of poo poo-headed behavior somebody is allowed to get away with before you cut them out? Do you give people you know really well lee-way when you know they're just being antagonistic? I have known a lot of lovely people in my life, I have cut a lot of lovely people out, but sometimes you settle on the decision that somebody is a worse person than you, but still worth knowing, even if you can't change them. Some people's bar for that is lower than others, maybe that's because of a deficiency on their part or maybe they have their own good reasons for it that you don't know about. Friendship and association is complicated and not always a black/white, right/wrong issue.
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Oct 31, 2018 23:42
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Yeah, it's actually not that hard to tell both racists and people who tolerate racists to gently caress off.
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Oct 31, 2018 23:44
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Heroism through skill and strength (or put another way, as the moral duty of the strong and skilled) is not inherently fascistic. To think otherwise is some grade A shooting yourself in the foot in terms of abandoning good and resonant storytelling to assholes. Even the concept of a mythic past isn't necessarily in their domain, although it is inherently conservative.
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Oct 31, 2018 23:45
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"It's just a few loud obnoxious voices, they don't represent all of us" is not an argument I'm inclined to regard favorably in this, the year of our lord 2018. Especially when those few loud obnoxious voices are the ones winning the awards, being namedropped everywhere, and generally positioning themselves as luminaries and champions of the movement.
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Oct 31, 2018 23:46
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A few loud obnoxious voices, like pretty much every noted OSR author except Kevin Crawford.
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Oct 31, 2018 23:49
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Heroism through skill and strength (or put another way, as the moral duty of the strong and skilled) is not inherently fascistic. To think otherwise is some grade A shooting yourself in the foot in terms of abandoning good and resonant storytelling to assholes. You're right, I'm being overly simplistic. It's important to know what that strength and skill are being used for. If it's being used to slaughter hordes of orcs or subhumans, that's bad. If it's being used to topple authoritarian power structures, it's good.
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Oct 31, 2018 23:51
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