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gigglefeimer posted:AI will do whatever it does with no input from the player. In X-2 you can choose exactly what, how, and when. Changing the roles and paradigms during battle has always been a makeshift way of having control over the AI, so I've always found this argument pretty silly @ "I have no control over the AI!". There's actually a bunch of little ways to manipulate the 13 AI that you see in the 13 speedrun as well. I'm of course not saying that 13 has as much direct choice as X-2, but the argument shouldn't be that 13 has 0 choice either. gigglefeimer posted:But if you're trying to go deeper than that, the differences are obvious. Alright, I'm curious: what exactly are you trying to get the AI to do what you find lacking? Like I think I've done some previous big post about 13 AI at some point and there are definitely some flaws, but I'm going to guess that for whatever situation you're in there is already some sort of solution to effectively do what you want by manipulating the party in some way. Based on your posting about X-2, the only thing I'm thinking of is maybe: "I want to stunlock multiple enemies at the same time with all my party members by attacking just before they attack". Beyond the fact that this would apply to surprisingly only a few fights (13 has some involved systems behind interrupts to consider, on top of frequently having more than 3 enemies in encounters) and that it's never really needed, I'd actually argue that this sort of thing should precisely not be easy to do, since typically setting up things like this in RPGs requires some sort of planning or specific setup, which is more or less what you'd have to do in 13 as it is now.
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Oct 31, 2018 23:49
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The big thing that the 13 AI doesn't allow you to do is focus on slow turtle strategies because the game is geared around rapid fire damage. This is arguably a flaw in the system if you like slow turtle strategies and that's a fair point, but it's also not one the game supports and honestly is arguably just playing the game badly. It's a winning strategy in the same way that doing nothing but firing Ebony and Ivory in Devil May Cry is a winning strategy: It works but it's incredibly slow and tedious and pointless. Outside of that the game's AI generally performs optimal actions for their role. There are a few tricks you can do with manual control but most of those involving the main character (who in turn CAN be manually controlled.) There's some fine-tuning to the targeting system (something 13-2 improves) which can improve things but the honest truth is that FF13's system wants you to go as full offense as you reliably can and is geared around that.
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Oct 31, 2018 23:59
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I would still argue they don't exactly have picking the 'best' option down when it comes to 13. Haste is always the last buff the ai would apply to people when putting haste on first lets them get every other buff on quicker if they at least cast it on themselves first. I had to control the game while playing synergist more then I had to on any other class but sentinel.(and that was just because auto-blocking is a really good way to have half the attacks you want to block happen in between when blocking and when saying to continue blocking next turn.)
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Nov 1, 2018 00:03
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Chaeden posted:I would still argue they don't exactly have picking the 'best' option down when it comes to 13. Haste is always the last buff the ai would apply to people when putting haste on first lets them get every other buff on quicker if they at least cast it on themselves first. I had to control the game while playing synergist more then I had to on any other class but sentinel.(and that was just because auto-blocking is a really good way to have half the attacks you want to block happen in between when blocking and when saying to continue blocking next turn.) While there is certainly a good point about needing to control synergists manually sometimes, the bolded section is distinctly false? The AI always starts off with Haste, and always on themselves first: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Synergist_(Final_Fantasy_XIII)#AI_mechanics Like yes I'll agree that there are definitely some edge cases where the AI path isn't what you want (say if you just want to buff a single character, or if you strictly need protect at the beginning and don't have the in-game enemy scan page filled), but most of the time I think the path laid out by the AI here is actually pretty good for most normal cases, and to get the degree of control you'd want whenever you want, you'd start heading into gambits territory which FF13 tried to mostly avoid. Ventana fucked around with this message at 00:57 on Nov 1, 2018 |
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Nov 1, 2018 00:53
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NikkolasKing posted:It's interesting to me that both X and X-2 often get brought up as having the best battle systems in the series. X's has always been my favorite combat in the FF series. I'm not hot about the party system behind it (I don't hate it either) but the actual pure turn-based combat, the fact you can see the orders ahead of time and all of that and the multiple optional bosses that each require a different mechanic were a lot of fun to me. I think FFX is the only FF that scratched my gameplay itch.
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Nov 1, 2018 01:36
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Ventana posted:While there is certainly a good point about needing to control synergists manually sometimes, the bolded section is distinctly false? The AI always starts off with Haste, and always on themselves first: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Synergist_(Final_Fantasy_XIII)#AI_mechanics If there's one flaw in the synergist AI, it's that it prioritizes defensive buffs over offensive ones (other than haste), which is at odds with the speed meta that the game wants you to play.
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Nov 1, 2018 02:18
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Elentor posted:X's has always been my favorite combat in the FF series. I'm not hot about the party system behind it (I don't hate it either) but the actual pure turn-based combat, the fact you can see the orders ahead of time and all of that and the multiple optional bosses that each require a different mechanic were a lot of fun to me. I think FFX is the only FF that scratched my gameplay itch. I haven't beaten FFX in over a decade but the siren call of hard mods (and the fact I can now play games on my computer) has motivated me to finally do it. Plus I've never experienced the Expert Sphere Grid. I suspect this much older me will appreciate the battle system more. I dunno if I'll bother with the Dark Aeons. I watched an LP'er fight them years ago and it just looked like spamming Wakka's Attack Reels was the solution.
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Nov 1, 2018 02:32
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Games that clip you with the damage cap as hard as that one does always favor abilities that hit as many times as possible in one turn. Attack Reels maxes out just shy of 1.6 million.
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Nov 1, 2018 04:09
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Ventana posted:While there is certainly a good point about needing to control synergists manually sometimes, the bolded section is distinctly false? The AI always starts off with Haste, and always on themselves first: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Synergist_(Final_Fantasy_XIII)#AI_mechanics That's strange. Because I distinctly recall hating synergist never doing that when I pressed auto. So I started casting hastes myself before using auto for more. And I find it odd if it only does that for auto and not for the ai party members.
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Nov 1, 2018 04:44
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Fister Roboto posted:If there's one flaw in the synergist AI, it's that it prioritizes defensive buffs over offensive ones (other than haste), which is at odds with the speed meta that the game wants you to play. In theory uh maybe you could say something like that, but 13 isn't so offensively focused that you don't need defensive buffs (often times you can't go fast without them on anyways? all depending on stats/loadouts of course), and pretty often the enemy intel will be setup so that it can go Haste -> offensive buffs on its own. Not most of the time but it's not a rarity for sure.
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Nov 1, 2018 05:18
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I didn't say you don't need defensive buffs 
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Nov 1, 2018 05:22
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Chaeden posted:That's strange. Because I distinctly recall hating synergist never doing that when I pressed auto. So I started casting hastes myself before using auto for more. And I find it odd if it only does that for auto and not for the ai party members. It does that even when AI controls them. Hell it so prioritizes it it will early execute its ATB the second it has the amount to self cast haste. If you have two or more synergists they work together to cover everything as effeciently as possible. The AI in 13 is really really good and the only things its bad about is positioning based which is outside of everyones control.
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Nov 1, 2018 06:26
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Chaeden posted:That's strange. Because I distinctly recall hating synergist never doing that when I pressed auto. So I started casting hastes myself before using auto for more. And I find it odd if it only does that for auto and not for the ai party members. I just tested it now, and indeed it's the order that the wiki says it is. Your auto-battle AI goes in the same order that the AI does, and both always start with casting Haste on yourself (or whoever the synergist is) first before going to others. Fister Roboto posted:I didn't say you don't need defensive buffs Right, you didn't, it was just a turn of phrase there. But my point is still the same even if I don't exaggerate there: defensive buffs are still primarily useful enough in most fights that I wouldn't consider it a flaw that the AI prioritizes it first before Brave/Faith. The game does prioritize speed more than previous FFs but the speed has always been extra; the normal behavior should be tuned to the normal instincts that people would have in an unfamiliar battle, which imo would be to tighten defenses first. Plus, it's mostly a factor of the intel notes which are prioritized 2nd. If a Defensive buff was already applied from the 2nd step, then the AI will go straight from the En-spell step right to the Bravery/Faith step. And I'd say it makes sense for the game to follow the logic of "After Haste, the individual enemy intel is probably most important" since there's a lot of specific gimmicks that strong enemies have that are important to have squared away first (such as the ones that inflict daze or curse, or if they really do have super strong physical/magic attacks). If there is a flaw in here though, I would put it at that the list of enemy intel is either too defensive in general or is just overdone for the later sections of the game. The intel of "delivers strong physical attacks" sort of loses its meaning when almost every enemy does this, and a lot of times you just straight up don't really even care about having Veil if it's against a lesser group of enemies that inflict poison. Like there's no intel, "Hey this dude uses poison but it's kinda no big deal so don't worry about it" vs maybe some fights where you actually might be worried about poison and would want to keep up Veil. However, since there's usually max of like 2 buffs you get from most enemy intel lists, it's not really that big of a deal anyways since casting is usually fast enough as is.
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Nov 1, 2018 06:55
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Ventana posted:Changing the roles and paradigms during battle has always been a makeshift way of having control over the AI, so I've always found this argument pretty silly @ "I have no control over the AI!". There's actually a bunch of little ways to manipulate the 13 AI that you see in the 13 speedrun as well. I'm of course not saying that 13 has as much direct choice as X-2, but the argument shouldn't be that 13 has 0 choice either.
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Nov 1, 2018 15:15
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FF13 allows you to pick exactly what each character does. You just have to go through the menus which is sometimes tedious.
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Nov 1, 2018 16:40
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Elephant Ambush posted:FF13 allows you to pick exactly what each character does. You just have to go through the menus which is sometimes tedious. No it doesn't
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Nov 1, 2018 17:07
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Elephant Ambush posted:FF13 allows you to pick exactly what each character does. You just have to go through the menus which is sometimes tedious. So expert level play doesn't use the AI? I wasn't aware of that.
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Nov 1, 2018 17:08
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Sorry to break up the XIII talk but I' just got to Killika in my first playthrough of FFX on the ESG and International and with a difficulty mod. I gotta say, one thing I never appreciated when I played FFX in my younger years was abilities like Cheer. It's literally just free Tarukaja and Rakukaja. How could I have been so dumb as to ignore it? All I 'm wondering is, does Dispel function like Dekaja? Or are buffs permanent for the duration of a battle in this game? Speaking of permanent beneficial spells, I love that Protect and Shell don't wear off. I obviously don't have them yet but I remember that distinctly because I hated how they went away in FFVII because I'd often not notice they were gone and end up dead. That is something I don't have to worry about here.
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Nov 1, 2018 17:46
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Dispel gets rid of everything. Even meaningless stuff like Nul-element spells.
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Nov 1, 2018 17:48
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Nul-Element is extremely not meaningless one time.
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Nov 1, 2018 17:52
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corn in the bible posted:No it doesn't Yes it does. Edit: 
Elephant Ambush fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Nov 1, 2018 |
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Nov 1, 2018 18:07
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NikkolasKing posted:Sorry to break up the XIII talk but I' just got to Killika in my first playthrough of FFX on the ESG and International and with a difficulty mod. You can stack Cheer
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Nov 1, 2018 18:07
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Tae posted:You can stack Cheer I know. Five times if I am remembering an LP right. Been doing that. Alxprit posted:Dispel gets rid of everything. Even meaningless stuff like Nul-element spells. Well I guess I don't have to worry about it for a while but good to know. Thanks. Barudak posted:Nul-Element is extremely not meaningless one time. Seymour 1?
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Nov 1, 2018 18:10
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I am attempting my fifth run of Final Fantasy Tactics, and if youve never seen me post it about it before, I hate this game. I just want to finish this thing, finally, so Id like to request the absolute most braindead overpowered setups, grinding tricks, and I swear to god Ill use them if cheats exists in War of the Lions.
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Nov 1, 2018 18:20
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Speaking of FFT, is it worth playing on mobile?
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Nov 1, 2018 18:22
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Elephant Ambush posted:Yes it does. That’s a menu controlling one character, not all three
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Nov 1, 2018 18:23
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Cavelcade posted:Speaking of FFT, is it worth playing on mobile? not if you can help it.
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Nov 1, 2018 18:24
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Cavelcade posted:Speaking of FFT, is it worth playing on mobile? Lord no but thats how Im doing it for this attempt. I think Ive played this game now on every platform it was ever released on.
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Nov 1, 2018 18:41
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Barudak posted:I am attempting my fifth run of Final Fantasy Tactics, and if youve never seen me post it about it before, I hate this game. I just want to finish this thing, finally, so Id like to request the absolute most braindead overpowered setups, grinding tricks, and I swear to god Ill use them if cheats exists in War of the Lions. Auto-potion in Chemist. Grab the barehand passive from Monk. Use brave-boosting abilities to push Brave up--every 4 points in a battle will raise it permanently by one, to a max of 97. Since Brave boosts unarmed damage, and the monk passive makes it pretty good already, you'll be hitting real hard. Then become a Ninja, punch everything to death. With just Ramza set up like this, you can breeze through most of the game. With a second barefist Ninja, you should be unstoppable. This is a lot of JP though, so: You can gain JP "quickly" without gaining too many levels by hiring a level 1 jerk and tapping them lightly for an hour.
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Nov 1, 2018 18:42
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Elephant Ambush posted:Yes it does. you can only control the actions of the leader
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Nov 1, 2018 18:44
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Hey, what's up thread? I'm finding myself with more free time than I've had in awhile, and was thinking about giving FFXV a go, 'cause it's pretty and campy and I've not played a JRPG in ages. I downloaded the demo (I'm on PC/Steam) and it works fine for the most part, but I'm finding that after a random amount of time, my keyboard stops responding. Completely - not just within game, I can't alt+tab or ctrl+alt+del or anything. Which means I wind up having to hard reset my PC, which I obviously don't want to keep doing. Has anyone encountered this bug before, and if so, did you find a way to fix it? Googling around doesn't turn much up, except for playing in big picture mode and stopping windows turning off usb peripherals to save power. Neither worked. TIA
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Nov 1, 2018 18:59
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From what I remember, FFXIII isn't hard enough to require fine control over all three characters. So while it might be nice from a general gameplay feel perspective, it still gets the job done. That being said, I do recall at least one encounter type where having strict control would be better than what the AI does. It's right around when you unlock Ruinga on Lightning and its a fight with a bunch of Sahagins. If you spam Ruinga (which the game will never auto select), you can stunlock the enemies with the explosions, but you're limited to just doing it with one character. If you could stagger Ruinga across all 3, I'm pretty sure you could stunlock them.
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Nov 1, 2018 19:09
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Cavelcade posted:Speaking of FFT, is it worth playing on mobile? Yes. I had fun playing through it on my iPhone. Rotate your save slots frequently and - although the game is trash at showing you how to do it - make sure to deploy more than one character for the first mission. EDIT: Also, refresh the thread before replying.
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Nov 1, 2018 19:19
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Hyper Inferno posted:From what I remember, FFXIII isn't hard enough to require fine control over all three characters. So while it might be nice from a general gameplay feel perspective, it still gets the job done. A damning statement, to be sure.
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Nov 1, 2018 19:26
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Where were you when Cloud loving died?
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Nov 1, 2018 20:48
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Barudak posted:I am attempting my fifth run of Final Fantasy Tactics, and if youve never seen me post it about it before, I hate this game. I just want to finish this thing, finally, so Id like to request the absolute most braindead overpowered setups, grinding tricks, and I swear to god Ill use them if cheats exists in War of the Lions. I would tell you to just play something you like instead but I'm not sure that exists
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Nov 1, 2018 20:52
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please don't play games you hate
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Nov 1, 2018 20:53
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Barudak posted:I am attempting my fifth run of Final Fantasy Tactics, and if youve never seen me post it about it before, I hate this game. I just want to finish this thing, finally, so Id like to request the absolute most braindead overpowered setups, grinding tricks, and I swear to god Ill use them if cheats exists in War of the Lions. Why play it then what the gently caress is wrong with you
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Nov 1, 2018 20:55
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aegof posted:Auto-potion in Chemist. Working on this. How is the level of an autobattle determined, highest level in the fight?
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Nov 1, 2018 21:25
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Please don't play games that you don't enjoy.
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Nov 1, 2018 21:27
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