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Typo posted:if you believe that endorsing medicare for all is a proxy for the dem left, they are up to 139 in the house and 20 or so in the senate It really, really isn't. Medicare for All is a centrist Dem position now because it can mean anything from a full single payer system to supporting a public option, and even Bernie's M4A bill has Baldwin, Booker, and Harris as cosponsors, and no one's calling them leftists. Rep. Conyers bill in the House has a similar ideological grab bag in cosponsors. I can't think of a single issue where things either aren't muddied like this AND where there is a concrete proposal that a politician can give an up or down vote to. There's a lot of problems with something like 538's Trump Score, but for the inexact purposes here, it'll serve. To be effective, you'd be looking at getting politicians ideologically somewhere left of Elijah Cummings and Joseph Kennedy III to join in
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Nov 1, 2018 18:50
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:Except, this isn't the 19th century anymore, political movements and ideas can garner support across state lines, just like gay marriage and marijuana legalization or whatever. Don't most states offer several constitutional amendments on the ballot for each election? I don't see why altering the state's electoral system can't be one of them. I never said it was impossible, but it's definitely an uphill battle as both parties each have their own entrenched support and it would be in their own interest to not run the risk of fragmenting their own party, even if it means the possibility of the other party doing the same. There's also party line recognition that goes along with what is essentially the advantages of incumbency where everyone knows about the Democrats and Republicans, and in some cases, the Green and Libertarian, but any new parties will have to fight extra hard just to get any sort of recognition, let alone an actual seat.
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Nov 1, 2018 18:51
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Typo posted:What america actually wants is a 5-6 party system and coalition governments in parliament
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Nov 1, 2018 18:53
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jBrereton posted:Reminder that the german equivalent of the dems literally went into government with the german republicans twice in the last 20 instead of working with the DSA and Greens, which they could have but chose not to for similar reasons the Dems would do so today. Yep and this is 100% what would happen in the US
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Nov 1, 2018 18:58
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There's a bill which would implement ranked choice voting with partial proportional representation I guess I'm for it, but in states that would become single-district, it'd probably lock centrists into winning, and also larger districts are more difficult for non-rich candidates to canvass
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Nov 1, 2018 19:03
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jBrereton posted:Reminder that the german equivalent of the dems literally went into government with the german republicans twice in the last 20 instead of working with the DSA and Greens, which they could have but chose not to for similar reasons the Dems would do so today. That's a possibility, but you have to keep in mind that Germany is far more stable economically and has a semi-robust welfare state compared to the U.S., so there is less popular pressure to shake up the status quo. I doubt this would fly in the U.S. today. Even in Germany, I doubt the current arrangement is going to continue past the next election - Merkel has already announced she will be standing down due to her party's decline in state elections.
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Nov 1, 2018 19:07
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:That's a possibility, but you have to keep in mind that Germany is far more stable economically and has a semi-robust welfare state compared to the U.S., so there is less popular pressure to shake up the status quo. I doubt this would fly in the U.S. today. 
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Nov 1, 2018 19:09
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Going into coalition with the libs to own the libs.
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Nov 1, 2018 19:12
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The idea that they wouldn't just combine to create a single centrist free market party is still funny to me. Center right decorum conservatives don't give anymore of a crap about evangelical bible thumpers than neoliberal shitlibs give a crap about addressing racial and economic inequality. Given a chance, they'd jettison both the right and left for laizez faire economics and mealy mouthed "can't we all just get along" social policy.
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Nov 1, 2018 19:18
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On the other hand, I don't see what prevents them from doing that under the current system? Maybe these ideas are just...not as popular as they used to be? Nah, must be their in-party solidarity.
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Nov 1, 2018 19:21
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galenanorth posted:the US would be better off if we abolished the Senate. Seeing as how the US has been held together by the military not letting anyone leave since the Civil War, and representation isn't afforded to the territories for the same reason, there isn't any reason for the Sherman Compromise anymore if we could somehow end it, but that's not going to happen. So we should go all-in and admit even Guam as a state, plus two Senate seats for Native Americans if they want them I like it but instead of 2 senators for "native americans" give 2 senators to every rez.
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Nov 1, 2018 19:39
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jBrereton posted:Reminder that the german equivalent of the dems literally went into government with the german republicans twice in the last 20 instead of working with the DSA and Greens, which they could have but chose not to for similar reasons the Dems would do so today. 1) The US left is basically in permanent state of this type of coalition with the center-left/centrist party as is, just with less power 2) The SDP/CDU coalition actually ended up implementing a bunch of left reforms like min wage increases, and the SDP got a lot of cabinet posts. Which is more than what a progressive democrat caucus would get from the rest of the democrats in congress under similar circumstances (see 2008-10). 3) More importantly, the voter have a mechanism which can and does punish the SDP for being in a grand coalition (see sdp vote share continue to plummet) by voting for De Linke (dem-soc) or the Greens. In US the mechanism basically amounts to primaries: which are low turnout elections going against the incumbent that's stacked against the challenger. Between the two systems, it's much easier and more realistic under a parliamentary system to punish a party for actions its voters do not want. Typo has issued a correction as of 19:44 on Nov 1, 2018 |
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Nov 1, 2018 19:42
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The way that committee assignments are handled is the key to maintaining party unity, and it's a big reason why no one breaks off and forms their own party. Getting shut out of the committee structure is effectively being shut out of bringing any legislation to the floor, so while they would still retain the power of their vote once a bill reaches the floor, they would have no role in shaping legislation before that. It's why Bernie caucuses with Dems (DESPITE NOT EVEN BEING A DEMOCRAT!) and while the system could theoretically allow a third party to function within the committee structure where, hypothetically Dems and leftists formed a caucus for the purposes of leadership, committees, and various other functions, it's far more likely that any third party would get completely frozen out of the process for a bunch of reasons. It's why I'm more in favor of entryism.
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Nov 1, 2018 19:49
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Typo posted:1) The US left is basically in permanent state of this type of coalition with the center-left/centrist party as is, just with less power quote:2) The SDP/CDU coalition actually ended up implementing a bunch of left reforms like min wage increases, and the SDP got a lot of cabinet posts. Which is more than what a progressive democrat caucus would get from the rest of the democrats in congress under similar circumstances (see 2008-10). quote:3) More importantly, the voter have a mechanism which can and does punish the SDP for being in a grand coalition (see sdp vote share continue to plummet) by voting for De Linke (dem-soc) or the Greens
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Nov 1, 2018 20:06
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Okay, and you think Germany would be better off under a U.S. like FPTP system?
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Nov 1, 2018 20:12
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Azathoth posted:The way that committee assignments are handled is the key to maintaining party unity, and it's a big reason why no one breaks off and forms their own party. In the current and forseeable future, entryism is probably the best case scenario for getting actual Leftists into positions of power. Theoretically, if the US could break from the 2 party system, it'd like split into four parties: A Left wing party, a Neo-Lib party, a Neo-Con party and a Libertarian/Nationalist Party. Chances are, the middle 2 are gonna coalition so often to the point of being a de facto single party such that we move to a pseudo tri-party system with a very large Centrist party that'll likely just vote as a bloc on economic issues and smaller wing parties that become relevant when social issues hit the floor
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Nov 1, 2018 20:40
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:Okay, and you think Germany would be better off under a U.S. like FPTP system?
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Nov 1, 2018 20:58
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Sure the senate may be hosed, but to be fair democrats can’t even reliably win in the states where people actually live. Florida, Texas, Ohio, North Carolina, Pennsylvania
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Nov 1, 2018 21:41
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Texas isn't particularly a swing state but Dems constantly eating poo poo in Florida, Ohio, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, and constantly getting obliterated in supposed safe blue states for governor elections is hosed up.
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Nov 1, 2018 21:51
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Shear Modulus posted:Texas isn't particularly a swing state but Dems constantly eating poo poo in Florida, Ohio, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, and constantly getting obliterated in supposed safe blue states for governor elections is hosed up. governorships don't rely on partisanship nearly as much as federal elections
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Nov 1, 2018 21:56
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Shear Modulus posted:Texas isn't particularly a swing state but Dems constantly eating poo poo in Florida, Ohio, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, and constantly getting obliterated in supposed safe blue states for governor elections is hosed up. Pennsylvania is especially embarrassing because in 2014 we threw out our republican governor by 10 points in a red-wave year. In 2015 dems sweep all 3 state supreme court seats...so going into 2016 they gotta feel pretty good right? Then Hillary Clinton and Katie McGinty...loving lol. For added context how bad they were, the top vote getter was democrat AG Josh Shapiro, who isn't anymore to the left of average democrats, but at least he knows how to talk to voters like a human being.
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Nov 1, 2018 21:59
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As much as we talk about the national party being in disarray, there's just as bad of a problem with state parties. For an example, compare and contrast Wisconsin with Minnesota. They're demographically, culturally, and economically very similar, yet Wisconsin is noticeably more red, yet the states move similarly in relation to national trends. It's hard to account for this as anything other than Minnesota having a better organized state party, which has been the difference between holding our own during the Obama rot and having our own version of Scott Walker running roughshod over the state. Dems seriously need to invest in party infrastructure if they want to turn it around.
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Nov 1, 2018 22:15
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Azathoth posted:As much as we talk about the national party being in disarray, there's just as bad of a problem with state parties. I mean, our democrat party should start doing some more ground work in Duluth less we lose the iron range and then it's just a slow trickle to Walkerism.
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Nov 1, 2018 22:23
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Mordor She Wrote posted:I mean, our democrat party should start doing some more ground work in Duluth less we lose the iron range and then it's just a slow trickle to Walkerism. I am convinced that district has a hex on it. First the primary with the ICE poo poo, then everything with Nolan. I feel legit bad for Joe Radinovich. Hope the trickledown from Walz and Klobuchar is enough.
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Nov 1, 2018 22:28
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Azathoth posted:As much as we talk about the national party being in disarray, there's just as bad of a problem with state parties. it's kinda hilarious that the political story of america for the last 30 years is one party doing things in a materialist manner and the other in a very idealist manner, only problem was the "left" party were the idealists. the GOP ate a lot of poo poo, but had a long gameplan that focused on state and local elections to get their people into every nook and cranny of the electorate, and working hand-in-hand with companies like FOX News and Sinclair broadcasting to amplify their messaging. the Democrats looked at everything like a game of marketing and appeal, and expected that if they controlled the White House from hence all power would flow downward. Whoops!
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Nov 1, 2018 22:47
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ShriekingMarxist posted:it's kinda hilarious that the political story of america for the last 30 years is one party doing things in a materialist manner and the other in a very idealist manner, only problem was the "left" party were the idealists. A lot gets made of how many state and local offices were lost under Obama, and that's usually an explanation for why we lost the presidential election, but it's far more important because those races are essentially candidate pipelines for higher office. It's not just that a candidate for the House who was a state rep or mayor or whatever has party connections, though those do open doors, it's that they have experience in the mundane crap that is running a successful campaign. The connections open doors sure, but campaigns are long, boring slogs, and the key to winning isn't going out once a week and giving a rousing speech, it's developing a message that resonates with voters, getting out and meeting those voters, eating mediocre food at a potluck and listening to voters, and doing that every loving day and night for literally months on end. It's possible to jump into some positions, even up to US House, without prior political experience if the candidate has a sufficiently inspiring life story and/or message, but the higher the office, the harder it becomes. The key to winning Senate seats and governorships is having that pipeline of good candidates waiting in the wings at the state and local level, where they've had an opportunity to work out their message, define themselves in the eyes of the voters, and figure out what works before the GOP attack-ad money machine gets turned loose on them.
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Nov 2, 2018 00:06
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waiting in line to vote against Ted Cruz...
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Nov 2, 2018 00:27
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akadajet posted:waiting in line to vote against Ted Cruz... You're doing the Lord's work.
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Nov 2, 2018 00:35
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akadajet posted:waiting in line to vote against Ted Cruz... not if the voting machines have anything to say about it!!
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Nov 2, 2018 00:54
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cool dance moves posted:not if the voting machines have anything to say about it!! yeah, who knows what happens with the voting machines. at least I tried, right?
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Nov 2, 2018 00:59
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ted cruz threatens every beto voter with a personal face-to-face visit
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Nov 2, 2018 01:27
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First past the post is garbage, multi party proportional representation is waaaay better
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Nov 2, 2018 01:31
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republicans will win because they'll demand recounts until the numbers are voter fraud free
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Nov 2, 2018 01:36
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logikv9 posted:ted cruz threatens every beto voter with a personal face-to-face visit good, I just ate some garlic and onions
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Nov 2, 2018 01:41
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logikv9 posted:ted cruz threatens every beto voter with a personal face-to-face visit https://twitter.com/tedcruz/status/1057703421778845696
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Nov 2, 2018 01:44
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Nov 2, 2018 02:03
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logikv9 posted:ted cruz threatens every beto voter with a personal face-to-face visit 
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Nov 2, 2018 02:14
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lol
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Nov 2, 2018 02:24
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pretending to be a psychotic serial killer really helps humanize ted cruz
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Nov 2, 2018 02:26
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Shear Modulus posted:pretending to be a psychotic serial killer really helps humanize ted cruz basically
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Nov 2, 2018 02:43
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