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There are a lot of RPGs which seem extremely disinterested in what the players are actually supposed to do with them.
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Nov 1, 2018 07:41
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Ghost Leviathan posted:There are a lot of RPGs which seem extremely disinterested in what the players are actually supposed to do with them. you're supposed to read the really cool sourcebook and giggle at the cool feelies and doodads that come in the box, and then store it on the shelf unplayed. I say as if I ever actually got more than one session of the warhammer fantasy RPG box I bought. Though I at least got those books at firesale prices when borders was closing.
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Nov 1, 2018 07:46
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So I'm guessing one of the most overused jokes at the checkout line in Invisible Sun Land whenever you're getting change back on a transaction must be "you're breaking my balls." The fact that people think Monte Cook is a good writer astonishes me, like I get it, I have low standards for poo poo too, but drat.
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Nov 1, 2018 08:20
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Another bit of Invisible Sun stupidity: PC Bonds. Before the first session, everyone goes around the table and announces that some other PC has a specific relationship with their PC. As a result of this relationship, they can share plot arcs and gain a advantage and disadvantage. Stupid thing 1: One of the relationships is 'Lover' and there's no note to say you're permitted to refuse this bond. Stupid thing 2: Some of the bonds have much, much worse disadvantages than others. Close Friend and Friend From The Past share the absolutely horrifying disadvantage of causing you to lose an action in fear when your bondmate is in 'grave peril'. Mystic Bond makes you share all damage taken, whereas Relatives take 1 point of mental damage every time their bondmate is damaged. None of these are worth these frankly crippling disadvantages. On the other hand, a number of other bonds have effectively no disadvantage, so they're the ones you take. Stupid thing 3: The 'Shadow Friends' bond, which represents having been friends together in Shadow, has the advantage that you both gain 1 to your Shadow Skill if you both have the same Shadow Skill. Your Shadow Skill normally starts at 2, making it your highest skill out of character creation. It's also the only skill you get to assign yourself rather than picking off a list, so it's gonna be tied up in whatever your character concept is. So it offers no advantage unless both players coordinated to pick this particular, somewhat lackluster, Bond. Actually kinda cute thing: One of the Bonds is 'Unrequited Bond', which represents that one PC is way more into the other one than vice-versa. The one who wants to get closer gets +1 to all actions when 'Close' to the other character (i.e. within 10 feet). The other character, when close, gains the ability to move a Short distance (i.e also about 10 feet) on their turn for free and it doesn't count as part of their action. The disadvantage is that, by default, the pursued is always at least 10 feet away from the pursuer, and thus the pursuer has to move to get their bonus. This is dumb, but pretty funny.
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Nov 1, 2018 09:50
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ProfessorCirno posted:To this day I think his whole "Ivory Tower game design" thing was complete horseshit. None of that was on purpose; claiming it was after the fact is just trying to rewrite his own inability to understand the game he made in the first place. The fact that his actual design has not changed and continues to have nonstop player traps is some pretty glaring proof. Every word you type further supports my hypothesis
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Nov 1, 2018 10:36
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What is the use of giving regular dollar values to extradimensional magical thought-orbs? Do your awesome reality-bending wizards have to like go to Shadow Walmart to buy bread and underwear? Is it important for a player with just a glass orb in their pocket to know they can only afford the Shadow-equivalent of a meal at McDonald's? What does the game say you are actually supposed to buy with these things?
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Nov 1, 2018 10:46
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That Old Tree posted:What is the use of giving regular dollar values to extradimensional magical thought-orbs? Do your awesome reality-bending wizards have to like go to Shadow Walmart to buy bread and underwear? Is it important for a player with just a glass orb in their pocket to know they can only afford the Shadow-equivalent of a meal at McDonald's? What does the game say you are actually supposed to buy with these things? I think they just wanted to give the scale of the denominations. The game has a ton of junk in the gear chapter for stuff like meals, rent at an apartment, how much hats cost, etc. To the game's credit, starting characters can just assume they have a bunch of stuff, and every PC has an 'income' stat that is explicitly how much disposable income they have. If you have a big old creaky Victorian haunted house, you don't have to figure out how much money it takes to keep it in dribbly candles and spiderwebs, it's just assumed you've got that under control and can instead spend all of your money on bad ideas. That said, why we are counting every glass orb that comes through our hands is beyond me.
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Nov 1, 2018 11:05
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Magic poker games in the Invisible Sun Cinematic Universe must be a pain in the rear end. "I'm all in." *pushes money balls forward, they all roll off the table onto the floor*
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Nov 1, 2018 11:22
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Ratoslov posted:I think they just wanted to give the scale of the denominations. The game has a ton of junk in the gear chapter for stuff like meals, rent at an apartment, how much hats cost, etc. To the game's credit, starting characters can just assume they have a bunch of stuff, and every PC has an 'income' stat that is explicitly how much disposable income they have. If you have a big old creaky Victorian haunted house, you don't have to figure out how much money it takes to keep it in dribbly candles and spiderwebs, it's just assumed you've got that under control and can instead spend all of your money on bad ideas. The Cypher games are like that, too, emphasizing how money doesn't really matter and PCs are presumed to start out with all their necessary gear, and then still providing tables of weapons, armor, and miscellaneous gear with assigned prices and relevant stats. All formatted and laid out exactly the same way as the 3e D&D gear tables on top of it all. I love how the basic currency still has to be functionally be copper, silver, and gold pieces in your parallel wizard reality. 
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Nov 1, 2018 12:26
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brb setting up my magecoin mining rig
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Nov 1, 2018 12:27
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You know, this might just be an hunch, but I'm starting to suspect that Monte Cook might not actually be a good game designer.
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Nov 1, 2018 12:38
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Bugger. I hoped bad Jenna Moran fanfic would be a Jenna setting with D&D structure. Turns out it’s just crap. It’s close to bad Eoris Essence fanfic by the sound of it. The “noosphere”. Getting a bonus for chasing your paramour around the room in the middle of a battle. Then when you both have to run from the space dragon, they go faster because they’re so scared of you. FFS.
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Nov 1, 2018 12:46
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hyphz posted:Bugger. I hoped bad Jenna Moran fanfic would be a Jenna setting with D&D structure. Oh, that reminds me! Dr. Moran actually explained how to play a Vancian spellcaster in Chuubo on her blog. It's pretty clever. Magic in Chuubo normally means using a magical skill, and you have to beat a certain obstacle by spending Will and adding your Skill. Here are the obstacle for Vancian spellcasting: [Obstacle 0] Detect and analyze magic [Obstacle 1] Cast one of your favorite spells, while fresh [Obstacle 1] Cast a spell you probably have, or are known to have, that’s perfect for this situation [Obstacle 2] Cast one of your favorite spells, while running low on mana/energy [Obstacle 2] Cast a spell you probably have, or are known to have [Obstacle 3] Cast a spell it’s surprising but plausible for you to possess
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Nov 1, 2018 13:28
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Ratoslov posted:Orbs: Orbs are the normal currency and the least stupid one. They're little orbs filled with different kinds of emotion and qualities of thought. They come in four denominations: Glass orbs, which are full of very common thoughts or ideas like 'what cheddar cheese tastes like' and are made by child laborers, are worth about ten US cents in Shadow. The condensed concept of what cheese tastes like: would buy about half an ounce of actual cheese.
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Nov 1, 2018 14:26
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Walks into a bank that is actually a demon. “Good day, I would like to exchange all my gem orbs for true orbs.”
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Nov 1, 2018 15:14
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(One of) the worst parts is that the "primer" pdf that's supposed to explain what the hell the game is tells you absolutely nothing. I read about 20 pages and realized I had no idea what the idea of the game even is! It's completely not worth reading. So, skipping straight to the Key (which appears to be 1/3 of the rules text, considering how everything else it keeps telling you to look it up what the words actually mean in The Path and the Way), it takes about 10 pages of bad WoD style intro fiction to get to a section titled "What do you do?" Answer: "You're all weird magic specialists who hid in another reality (i.e. Earth) where you had new lives while a big war broke everything. Now, the war's over, and you and other weird wizards are coming back to your home reality. Everything's broken and sucks due to the aftermath of the war, so sometimes you want to go back to your mundane life because it's familiar and safe. However, it's up to you and your buddies to fix things in the city, and things here are much more fantastic than Earth." Boiled down like that, I don't think that's a bad pitch. But you could do that in a lot of other, less obtuse games.
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Nov 1, 2018 15:50
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That sounds like a pretty cool Legacy hack.
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Nov 1, 2018 17:05
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Nuns with Guns posted:
d&d causes brain damage
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Nov 1, 2018 17:37
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PTSDND
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Nov 1, 2018 17:37
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For real though those currencies are really boring ripoffs of the Nobilis ones, which are notable for not giving explicit exchange rates or values, and instead giving whimsical metaphorical ones like ‘pinned against the value of a dream’ or ‘pinned against the value of vengeance on your enemies’
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Nov 1, 2018 17:44
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More specifically the War in Actuality was more like both World Wars because there's unexploded ordinance everywhere and you need to help rebuild because it was seriously three years ago when the war ended. Which would be a fine hook if you basically weren't playing Wizard War Draft Dodgers/Defectors Who Couldn't Take The Horror Anymore and were regular folks being brought in to help rebuild. Like actually I think that's the fundamental flaw at the heart of Invisible Sun; it's disgustingly oWoD when it should be nWoD. "Normal people who have been given access to the chance to be badass and make their mark on the world" is a classic tried and true story. "You used to be badass but gave yourself amnesia and have to relearn and take over again" is kind of too specific for telling a variety of stories and more suited for...not Invisible Sun.
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Nov 1, 2018 17:59
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hyphz posted:That sounds like a pretty cool Legacy hack. The thing is, I'm pretty sure there's an ok game in Invisible Sun. It just is 400 pages shorter and only uses, like, one deck of cards and some dice.
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Nov 1, 2018 18:05
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Capfalcon posted:The thing is, I'm pretty sure there's an ok game in Invisible Sun. It just is 400 pages shorter and only uses, like, one deck of cards and some dice.
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Nov 1, 2018 18:22
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Capfalcon posted:"You're all weird magic specialists who hid in another reality (i.e. Earth) where you had new lives while a big war broke everything. Now, the war's over, and you and other weird wizards are coming back to your home reality. Everything's broken and sucks due to the aftermath of the war, so sometimes you want to go back to your mundane life because it's familiar and safe. However, it's up to you and your buddies to fix things in the city, and things here are much more fantastic than Earth." See this is actually really cool, and the fact that the KS page focuses on navel-gazing bullshit instead of this is a damning indictment of their ability to write an incisive and interesting game.
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Nov 1, 2018 18:31
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Flavivirus posted:See this is actually really cool, and the fact that the KS page focuses on navel-gazing bullshit instead of this is a damning indictment of their ability to write an incisive and interesting game.
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Nov 1, 2018 18:35
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Yawgmoth posted:Much like D&D, there's a good game to be had in there if you carve away a lot of the bullshit and replace/streamline a few things. But if it was easy to understand and didn't have lots of props, how could they charge over $200 for it???
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Nov 1, 2018 18:49
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Yeah, Invisible Sun tries to do "torn between the comfort of the devil you know and the risk of wild adventure and new experiences" in such a way that when it starts talking about how your old attachments from The Grey sometimes have a nasty habit of following you and being a reminder, you half expect the sentiment to end with "and that's why I want to switch to an open marriage Janet. So we can both play the field and see what we're missing.".
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Nov 1, 2018 18:49
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FMguru posted:Its pretty on-brand for a Retro Nineties Vampire RPG Heartbreaker to fail to communicate just what the core player activity is supposed to be.
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Nov 1, 2018 19:11
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Yawgmoth posted:I get the feeling that MC doesn't even know what they're supposed to actually be doing. It's very "here's your sandbox, you figure out the game!" except the sandbox is a desert and MC is a guy trying to sell you a plot of land that totally has an oasis on it, for realsies. In theory, the session zero of the game involves creating lots of NPCs and giving the GM some plot hooks to get things rolling. Which is more like selling a "Build Your Own Oasis" kit in this metaphor.
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Nov 1, 2018 19:15
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Coolness Averted posted:d&d causes brain damage I've never been a fan of that expression but Monte is pretty emblematic of some intense hangups people have around the symbology of D&D. Like in the Cypher System rulebooks one of the main reasons given for using a d20 to resolve most rolls instead of a less stingy dice option was the totemisic and historical significance of the d20 as a die.
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Nov 1, 2018 20:03
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Yawgmoth posted:I get the feeling that MC doesn't even know what they're supposed to actually be doing. It's very "here's your sandbox, you figure out the game!" except the sandbox is a desert and MC is a guy trying to sell you a plot of land that totally has an oasis on it, for realsies. I think in the context of Invisible Sun's custom campaigns or whatever it was, the core rulebooks are sandboxy as hell and then the upper tiers probably tell you what they actually expect you to do with them.
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Nov 1, 2018 20:20
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Ratoslov posted:Yeah, let's talk about the currencies in Invisible Sun and why they are all stupid.
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Nov 1, 2018 20:44
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sexpig by night posted:this is so dumb, what is even the point of this, how did they sit down and brainstorm up 'so yea there's four moneys and one is cursed and one is demon stuff no one wants and another is magic money that you have to use only for magic and the main one is orbs of memory' and no one went 'shut the gently caress up'?
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Nov 1, 2018 20:58
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Yea, does making a trueorb mean the maker forgets the secret it holds? If so, these super serious rebuilding wizards are throwing away important truths for a quick buck and a quick buff.
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Nov 1, 2018 21:12
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“What if Fallen London’s commodity system but without the backing of actually good surreal writing”
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Nov 1, 2018 21:52
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Memories are more valuable the fewer people have ever experienced them which will certainly not motivate players to kill everyone who has ever tasted cheese in order to corner the market.
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Nov 1, 2018 21:58
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1337JiveTurkey posted:Memories are more valuable the fewer people have ever experienced them which will certainly not motivate players to kill everyone who has ever tasted cheese in order to corner the market. That's pretty dystopic to have the PCs try to turn common memories into more valuable ones by murder.
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Nov 1, 2018 22:01
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A bunch of Americans playing any game that uses English currency denominations quickly degrades into someone asking how many 'octopi ridings unicycles' this job pays.
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Nov 1, 2018 22:20
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hey those guys who wrote that get that when you have fairy tales of poo poo like some ancient fae king bargaining for the emotions of a mortal or memories of some mundane thing is meant to be a sign of how alien and detached from the mortal world the fae are where 'you enjoy cheese, just cheese? Tell me what that's like' is a novel concept to some inhuman being who can get energy from an orgy or whatever the gently caress, right? It's not like, meant to be an actual economy.
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Nov 1, 2018 22:31
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1337JiveTurkey posted:Memories are more valuable the fewer people have ever experienced them which will certainly not motivate players to kill everyone who has ever tasted cheese in order to corner the market. Cute, but I think you’ll find I’ve already removed the concept of dairy from existence. *steeples hands* Am I the richest person alive or completely destitute? You tell me friend, (because I have no idea.)
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Nov 1, 2018 22:53
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