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no offense pj but if you try to derive the nature of the mind from the nature of the brain even in terms of analogy you're gonna have a bad time.BrandorKP posted:One of my coworkers likes to talk about how large portions of his subject area was created for drunks with 6th grade education by educated drunks (and he could be specific as to which drunks). Harmonic motion combined with statics / dynamics and strengths of materials that one can do in ones head drunk and near illiterate. And some international treaties have sections based on it. One of my favorite books describe how to operate power plants (including nuclear!) are written in the same fashion. I think there is a huge need for that type of translation right now and getting the university out of the university is one way to start doing it. eh i would actually dispute that compaction cycles exist personally. well, i mean what it is referring to probably exists in some form but it seems like hella special pleading to me to assume they exist as a discrete cycle. seems a bit just-so to me, eye em oh
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Nov 2, 2018 07:06
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PJ I think the word that you are looking for meaning “thing that is manipulated in a logical framework” is ‘symbol’. Other words somewhat matching “points on a mental map” could be: idea (really the most appropriate), thought, concept, notion, or sense. A cluster of ideas is often called a complex.
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Nov 2, 2018 07:39
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Paolomania posted:PJ I think the word that you are looking for meaning “thing that is manipulated in a logical framework” is ‘symbol’. Other words somewhat matching “points on a mental map” could be: idea (really the most appropriate), thought, concept, notion, or sense. A cluster of ideas is often called a complex. agreed you want to stick with mental concepts rather than physical ones since the means by which the physical gives rise to the mental is mostly unknown
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Nov 2, 2018 11:59
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Trying to map out the way people think is kind of going to be hard, especially since there's evidence that neurodivergent people (like the autistic) think in different ways to some extent.
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Nov 2, 2018 11:59
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A big flaming stink posted:no offense pj but if you try to derive the nature of the mind from the nature of the brain even in terms of analogy you're gonna have a bad time. This is definitely true. You’re much better off looking at thought in terms of the structures we use when thinking and communicating (concepts, language) than metaphorical brain structures. There are much better ways to bridge the gap between experience and thought than by forming a theory of the brain.
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Nov 2, 2018 12:39
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Prester Jane posted:Christ almighty Dioevich would you take your vendetta against me out of C-SPAM for fucks sake? You catch a little bit of blowback for being a dick and you double down and abuse your mod powers. Good loving job. if you're going to take this weird persecution complex to cspam and cry this much over perfectly valid criticism and a day probe I'm just going to close the thread or move it to d&d, which fits it a lot better tbh
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Nov 2, 2018 17:01
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:if you're going to take this weird persecution complex to cspam and cry this much over perfectly valid criticism and a day probe I'm just going to close the thread or move it to d&d, which fits it a lot better tbh lol
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Nov 2, 2018 17:43
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:if you're going to take this weird persecution complex to cspam and cry this much over perfectly valid criticism and a day probe I'm just going to close the thread or move it to d&d, which fits it a lot better tbh He literally followed her into the new thread just to be a dick to her. His comments were entirely nonconstructive, and probed me for mocking him. (I've been more of an rear end in a top hat to mods and gotten away with it before, just because RD is bad at taking criticism doesn't mean a 24h probe was right. But it doesn't really matter now, no?) Make me a IK or whatever, but moving a productive thread to a forum where the mods harass the OP is silly. This has been a lovely conversation, until RD showed up; why not remove the person who's actually the problem?
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Nov 2, 2018 17:59
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T-man posted:He literally followed her into the new thread just to be a dick to her. His comments were entirely nonconstructive, and probed me for mocking him. (I've been more of an rear end in a top hat to mods and gotten away with it before, just because RD is bad at taking criticism doesn't mean a 24h probe was right. But it doesn't really matter now, no?) Make me a IK or whatever, but moving a productive thread to a forum where the mods harass the OP is silly. This has been a lovely conversation, until RD showed up; why not remove the person who's actually the problem? Homex's criticism was 100% valid, and the reaction was to demand he leave and not post in the thread. being an op doesn't make you invulnerable to someone calling you out on your bs And wanting a productive thread where yall sniff each other's pseudophilosophical 8 paragraph farts about how rightwingers are all crazy cultists unlike us enlightened libs is absolutely a better fit for d&d
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Nov 2, 2018 18:22
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his post was unfunny and low effort, and its funny to watch the other posters poo poo on him threads going well imo
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Nov 2, 2018 19:07
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:... rightwingers are all crazy cultists ... They are though.
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Nov 2, 2018 19:39
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Helianthus Annuus posted:his post was unfunny and low effort, and its funny to watch the other posters poo poo on him For content https://twitter.com/IAStartingLine/status/1058040186360250368
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Nov 2, 2018 20:01
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Jazerus posted:agreed Having slept on it all and in light of all the feedback I've gotten I am going to back off of the whole theory of mind aspect of this- it isn't necessary for the other parts of my work. (I can describe self replicating behaviour patterns and their interactions without necessarily having an underlying theory of mind that explains their existence.) I'm also going to take about a four or five day internet sabbatical to let my head clear a little bit before I come back to this.
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Nov 2, 2018 20:15
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Smart.
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Nov 2, 2018 20:21
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Prester Jane posted:I'm also going to take about a four or five day internet sabbatical to let my head clear a little bit before I come back to this. YOU CAN'T GET OUT OF YOUR READING ASSIGNMENT THAT EASILY!
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Nov 2, 2018 20:26
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:YOU CAN'T GET OUT OF YOUR READING ASSIGNMENT THAT EASILY! I won't shirk my homework 
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Nov 2, 2018 20:36
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T-man posted:You're pretty consistently a massive idiot and a terrible mod. Piss off with this third rate political analysis, you sound like a 19 year old who just read the communist manifesto for the first time. This post is very funny and should be framed over R. Guyovich's desk as a trophy also you should stick to PYF
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Nov 2, 2018 20:53
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:Homex's criticism was 100% valid, and the reaction was to demand he leave and not post in the thread. being an op doesn't make you invulnerable to someone calling you out on your bs it's unfortunate then that d&d is a toxic wasteland that made having a real discussion about this topic instead of dealing with fishmech impossible anyway the topic of this thread is not "all right wingers are crazy cultists unlike us" and you are not being very generous in summing it up like that. to put it in cspam terms it's basically about trump derangement syndrome and the mechanics of the absurdly irrational worldviews that, for example, allowed evangelicals to enthusiastically support trump without experiencing cognitive dissonance. the cult of Mother and their utter hatred of the perfidious bernard brothers is a good non-right-wing example of narrativism. now please excuse me i have a jar of posts to huff
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Nov 2, 2018 21:09
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something Guyovich brought up that I never really understood was the whole thing about like... well, everyone constructs and interprets narratives that inform their lives to some extent. so, maybe this is a little trite, but like, "where do you draw the line." what makes some narrative people "ists" and not just.. people? sorry if i'm misunderstanding the basics or whatever
Mia Wasikowska has issued a correction as of 22:51 on Nov 2, 2018 |
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Nov 2, 2018 22:49
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Zas posted:something Guyovich brought up that I never really understood was the whole thing about like... well, everyone constructs and interprets narratives that inform their lives to some extent. so, maybe this is a little trite, but like, "where do you draw the line." what makes some narrative people "ists" and not just.. people? sorry if i'm misunderstanding the basics or whatever Oh, snap. Now you are asking about Artisans vs. Specialists and that's beyond my scope to explain. But that's also "theory of the mind" poo poo from which PJ is backing off, so, ymmv. https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3708238&pagenumber=102&perpage=40#post470170767
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Nov 2, 2018 23:02
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:Homex's criticism was 100% valid, and the reaction was to demand he leave and not post in the thread. being an op doesn't make you invulnerable to someone calling you out on your bs Nah, what you need to do is add 'crew' to the title and move it to:https://forums.somethingawful.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=196 The pastel color scheme is soothing.
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Nov 2, 2018 23:11
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Zas posted:something Guyovich brought up that I never really understood was the whole thing about like... well, everyone constructs narratives and lives their lives by them to some extent. so, maybe it's a little trite, but like, "where do you draw the line." sorry if i'm misunderstanding the basics or whatever the kind of narratives non-narrativists construct are limited in scope. they are about things like their dreams and ambitions, careers, romantic interests, interests, etc. and a person might have many different narratives in different spheres of their life. a narrativist has a "grand narrative" - a single, mostly all-encompassing narrative that is invoked to explain most of the events in life. grand narratives tend to fall into categories, such as religious, conspiratory, nationalist, etc. and the narrativist connects most of their life into this grand narrative - although unless they are very radicalized or mentally ill they are unlikely to actually admit to this inner grand narrative. instead, they present to the world an "outer narrative" - a safer explanation for their beliefs and behaviors that won't raise as many eyebrows, and even if it does come under attack, it's not as distressing because it's not their real position. this explains, for example, the rapidly shifting nonsense logic of right-wing media - any given 'issue' is a new outer narrative that really serves the purpose of further defending the inner narrative. narrativists are essentially disconnected from reality in important ways because the narrative shapes their perceptions, and the narrative can in turn be shaped by other people either in person or in media. any narrative can, of course, but a non-narrativist has many small, simple narratives, so any one narrative doesn't dominate their worldview. narrativists can be convinced of many absurd things by appealing to the inner logic of their grand narrative, while most people have at least some degree of reality-based logical reasoning there's a lot more to say on the topic but i'm kinda tired atm so i'll leave it there Jazerus has issued a correction as of 00:26 on Nov 3, 2018 |
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Nov 2, 2018 23:13
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Zas posted:something Guyovich brought up that I never really understood was the whole thing about like... well, everyone constructs and interprets narratives that inform their lives to some extent. so, maybe this is a little trite, but like, "where do you draw the line." what makes some narrative people "ists" and not just.. people? sorry if i'm misunderstanding the basics or whatever This is a very good question. The most direct answer is that a Narrativist will always have a belief system that comports to the 4-tiered structure of the Grand Narrative. A Narrativist will also utilize Outer Narratives that they have no investment in, will justify their Inner Narrative using the three Bypasses, and engage in compaction cycles if they are in a Narrativist group.
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Nov 2, 2018 23:14
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Prester Jane posted:This is a very good question. The most direct answer is that a Narrativist will always have a belief system that comports to the 4-tiered structure of the Grand Narrative. A Narrativist will also utilize Outer Narratives that they have no investment in, will justify their Inner Narrative using the three Bypasses, and engage in compaction cycles if they are in a Narrativist group. This seems like the beginning of an excellent FAQ answer for "What about me? Am I a Narrativist?" Also, when you have mods coming from D&D to here to harass the OP it's probably not a good idea to move the thread back there.
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Nov 3, 2018 00:22
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"who isn't a narrativist?" is probably a better question i'm also not seeing a substantive difference between a "Narrativist utilizing Outer Narratives as cover for a Bypassed Inner Narrative via Compaction Cycles" and "the guise of genteel social signifiers covering power relations is just that" except that the latter more concisely ties into a materialist analysis and is able to be more agnostically applied across culture and class e; this doesn't deserve a new post Jazerus posted:the kind of narratives non-narrativists construct are limited in scope. they are about things like their dreams and ambitions, careers, romantic interests, interests, etc. and a person might have many different narratives in different spheres of their life. a narrativist has a "grand narrative" - a single, mostly all-encompassing narrative that is invoked to explain most of the events in life. grand narratives tend to fall into categories, such as religious, conspiratory, nationalist, etc. and the narrativist connects most of their life into this grand narrative - although unless they are very radicalized or mentally ill they are unlikely to actually admit to this inner grand narrative. instead, they present to the world an "outer narrative" - a safer explanation for their beliefs and behaviors that won't raise as many eyebrows, and even if it does come under attack, it's not as distressing because it's not their real position. this explains, for example, the rapidly shifting nonsense logic of right-wing media - any given 'issue' is a new outer narrative that really serves the purpose of further defending the inner narrative. you are literally backing into Berger and Luckmann's Social Construction of Reality and Sacred Canopy blindfolded and from an odd angle, then converting it into a pseudo-clinical pathology and its really weird. everyone barring the severely depressed creates larger frameworks in which to place themselves. the narrative does not shape the perceptions, the people from which we derive meaning do. stories don't just wriggle into existence. is the fact that this thread is populated by folk compelled by the narrative of "narrativism" part of the joke? ee; in fact, in revisiting and correcting his ideas decades down the line, Berger specifically clarifies himself in a way that coincidentally speaks directly to PJ's very particular fuckin bullshit and ties it into what Berger would be very upset to hear me describe as a dialectical process: quote:PB: ...Every major tradition in Europe—Catholic, Protestant, and Eastern Orthodox—comes out of a history of being a state church. There are some exceptions—nonconformist in England—but most of them —Reformed, Lutheran, Catholic, Orthodox—were state churches. The United States started out with pluralism. Some of them didn’t like this at all. The Puritans in New England hanged Quakers on Boston Common. They weren’t tolerant of other religions. They had to become tolerant, because there were too many of these other people. You couldn’t hang them all. You couldn’t convert them all. It was, I think, a very good development. But what does a state church do in terms of people’s attitudes to religion? If a church is too closely linked to the state, every time people get annoyed at the state, they get annoyed with the church that is established by the state. It’s very simple. And that’s not good for religion, and it’s not good for the state, for different but similar reasons. That’s the most important reason, I think. and he goes on to talk about the viral spread of pentecostalism in marginalized communities, and so forth Willie Tomg has issued a correction as of 01:13 on Nov 3, 2018 |
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Nov 3, 2018 00:27
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Willie Tomg posted:"Narrativist utilizing Outer Narratives as cover for a Bypassed Inner Narrative via Compaction Cycles" lol, this sentence is half bespoke Proper Nouns and is utterly incomprehensible if you haven't dug through a bunch of forums posts: a hallmark of good theory and even better writing
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Nov 3, 2018 02:10
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deadking posted:lol, this sentence is half bespoke Proper Nouns and is utterly incomprehensible if you haven't dug through a bunch of forums posts: a hallmark of good theory and even better writing yes hello welcome to thread local jargon, where you can lurk and read or you can poo poo the place up please don't poo poo the place up
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Nov 3, 2018 02:24
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McGlockenshire posted:yes hello welcome to thread local jargon, where you can lurk and read or you can poo poo the place up again i gotta ask: the gently caress do you think this forum even IS? this isn't "the place fishmech can't get you" its "the place you can tell fishmech to gently caress off" and that person raises a pretty legit criticism imo
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Nov 3, 2018 04:39
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ikm gaty
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Nov 3, 2018 05:22
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lol how the gently caress do you end up culting someone like prester jane
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Nov 3, 2018 05:26
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Willie Tomg posted:again i gotta ask: the gently caress do you think this forum even IS? i mean, fishmech literally can't post in cspam, he's not allowed because we told him to gently caress off extremely hard. it is in general a place you can tell anybody to gently caress off though and people should do so i feel like there is a weird refusal on your part to actually engage with the large body of material prester has written about all of the points you've raised in your last couple of posts. this isn't exactly new, the d&d thread was years old and the OP of this thread links to prester's blog where she lays this all out. there's been an ongoing discussion about this stuff for years so is it a surprise that there are a few bits of specialized vocabulary involved? this poo poo is not actually complicated, or even particularly far outside of currently existing psychological theory once you mentally transform it from prester's vocabulary into more standard terms. which requires reading it in detail - that's not going to be everybody's cup of tea and that's fine but that doesn't make jargon gibberish. Willie Tomg posted:"who isn't a narrativist?" is probably a better question most people are not narrativists. some people have been in the past and aren't now, others aren't right now but will be in the future, and most people never will be. it's not a clinical pathology - it's a system of logical reasoning that a person can be talked into believing in, or talked out of believing in, and which ties everything into a larger-than-life narrative about a conflict between good and evil. the exact details vary according to the person's culture, interests, and experiences, of course - one narrativist might believe that life is a story about a left behind style rapture that'll happen any day now, another that the reptilians control the world through the UN, another that the end of civilization is coming and so they must stockpile food and weapons for the post-apocalypse. all of the familiar varieties of crazy that make a normal person go "  " because they're people living in weird all-encompassing fantasy worlds. some of those people can pass for not-crazy - those are narrativists with an outer narrative.it's certainly true that people use "genteel social signifiers covering power relations" but that's not exactly what is going on for a narrativist - the power relations part is the perspective of non-narrativists who feed the narrativists their narrative, while the narrativist is living a fantasy where they're the Good Guys fighting the Bad Guys. a lot of the folks who do nonsensical poo poo to "own the libs" are thinking on this symbolic fantasy level where their actions will contribute to the spiritual war that they perceive as happening all around them. narrativist theory is about the dittoheads, whereas the "rhetoric covering power relations" part is rush himself, to use a very last-decade comparison here. this isn't something that you are unfamiliar with, willie - it's just viewed through a different lens. people in this thread aren't compelled by a grand narrative of narrativism. narrativists aren't the evil enemy, even if they're often easily fooled by grifters and authoritarians into supporting regressive poo poo, and we don't build our lives around a perceived conflict between narrativists and non-narrativists. narrativists simply are part of the human condition, an aspect of human society that is more usually treated as many discrete phenomena rather than a unified one. that's where i think PJ's writings really have value - they identify commonalities between disparate groups of folks who are disconnected from reality-based reasoning, and explain mechanically why we see certain behaviors and dynamics in these groups. is PJ right about everything? no, certainly not, but that doesn't mean there's nothing to take seriously here.
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Nov 3, 2018 05:29
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in conclusion,
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Nov 3, 2018 05:31
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Jazerus posted:in conclusion,
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Nov 3, 2018 05:43
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thats cool and everything but could you phrase it in the form of a racist joke thats also about jizz?
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Nov 3, 2018 06:47
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twerking on the railroad posted:This seems like the beginning of an excellent FAQ answer for "What about me? Am I a Narrativist?" how the gently caress is this harassment lol R. Guyovich posted:this strikes me as the kind of grand unifying theory that's so vague it can be applied to anything and people who don't know any better will eat it up. EVERYBODY believes in narratives to some degree. these categories are malleable enough you can stretch them wherever you need to make sense of the world. kinda like, you know, conspiracy theories. unless you think correctly pointing out how fundamentally stupid all this is counts as harassment
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Nov 3, 2018 06:52
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i will agree that most of the posts itt are dumb but the narrativist framework has a great deal of merit the problem is the person performing the actual critical work (jane) is surrounded by a miasma of pseudointellectual clingers-on and trolls with a chip on their shoulder so you get slapfights and people huffing lungfuls of their own farts
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Nov 3, 2018 07:11
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lol
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Nov 3, 2018 07:13
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big jordan peterson fans itt lol
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Nov 3, 2018 07:15
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pj is unironically the best socialist on this forum, not only is she using her labor to directly create material of benefit to the proletariat, that material is useful for direct contravention against fascist thought on the levels it needs to be addressed. at the risk of exhaling used up farts, fascism is rhetoric masquerading as debate and violence masquerading as force and the framework of the inner and outer narrative allows us to identify and address practitioners of what Hillary called "both a public and private position"
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Nov 3, 2018 07:23
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:how the gently caress is this harassment lol "I fail to understand how this would be harassment (given my knowledge and social position)" and "this is not harassment (for someone else)" are not equal. But screw it, I'm done discussing this. Reality is subjective and there's no truth and we all die alone yadda yadda. Also I post more in D&D and BYOB than I do PYF. PS. I'll be reading along, already started on chapter 1.
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Nov 3, 2018 07:37
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