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Bedlamdan posted:No dude, it was pretty much an open secret all the way since 2003-2006. Shmorky wasn't told to gently caress off for it until Lowtax started to find his voice annoying. Until then people still kept on sucking up to that weirdo and dismissed any arguments to the contrary as LIES and baseless SLANDER up until people who weren't indoctrinated into whatever online death cult started taking notice. This is also what happened a dozen other times a forums superstar or moderator was outed as a creep, weirdo, or literal rapist. I mean, yeah, nobody in this specific subforum is at fault for it, but for the most part people go out of their way to be as resolutely ignorant of the bad poo poo that happens here as much as humanly possible. I remember people saying that they heard that the worst shmorky did was fetishy furry art "for commissions", and I don't recall any roving bands of shmorky-defenders trying to disguise or downplay open pedophilia but yeah maybe I was on the totally wrong subforums to get the juiciest hosed up poo poo.
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Nov 2, 2018 02:21
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I didn’t know who Schmorky was before this discussion
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Nov 2, 2018 02:29
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whydirt posted:I didn’t know who Schmorky was before this discussion No but you see something something Shmorky was bad and thus SA is bad and therefor it's always okay for me, personally, to not confront problematic people in my chosen hobby because it'd be like super uncomfortable. Why should I be responsible for the people I choose to associate with! That's not fair at all! Obviously what is fair would be no one ever criticizing me for knowingly participating in a hosed up community. That is what will lead to healthier communities, after all; never actually confronting the bad elements.
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Nov 2, 2018 04:22
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I'm also on (at least parts) of SA because it allows adults to be in the room and has little patience for creepshows. I also actually value the dead gay aspect of SA--RPGnet has some good content, but threads move so goddamn fast if they're even a little bit popular. You manage to catch something on the first couple pages, read through, work up a response and there's already another page or two--it's really hard to participate and with so many people talking it can make actual conversation difficult. But still good on RPGnet for this new modding policy. That makes me wonder if SA would go the same route, but then again direct MAGA support is pretty clearly relegated to D&D and creepy MAGA nonsense in other fora already isn't tolerated.
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Nov 2, 2018 05:51
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SA's really not one to talk on reputation because even if this place has cleaned up its act, the rest of the internet that still remembers it also remembers Helldump basically writing the original blueprints for organised online harassment, and being one of the only places left besides 4chan that actually cares about furries. (Read some good old goon hating on furries and tell me a lot of it doesn't come off as barely veiled hatred of queer people) I think the key SA's survival has been the moderation policy being explicitly 'We can ban and probate you for any reason we feel like'. It's not only a more honest version of basically every moderation policy in a nutshell, but that combined with bans and probations being public record and a pretty robust system for them that, combined with the paywall, gives moderators a lot of tools to work with and degrees of punishment. Moderation on most forums is something people don't like to talk about, and a frequently opaque process. On SA, the openness about it is downright shocking compared to pretty much any other platform. Where else on the internet do people line up bans for fun and bets?
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Nov 2, 2018 11:32
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Public shaming is something all forums should engage in and the failure to publicly put "user was banned for this post" with a little blurb why is probably the largest failure of social media sites around.
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Nov 2, 2018 11:57
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"Everybody knew about Shmorky" is clearly meant to equate SA's worst with the OSR's worst, except that: 1) Nobody knew about Shmorky, and 2) The OSR's garbage people actually campaign on their dreadfulness. It's amazing to see "You did what we're doing!" used as both an attack and defense in the same breath, especially when it isn't actually the case.
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Nov 2, 2018 12:20
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Terrible Opinions posted:Public shaming is something all forums should engage in and the failure to publicly put "user was banned for this post" with a little blurb why is probably the largest failure of social media sites around. The Sunshine Law but for Social Media and internet communities.
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Nov 2, 2018 14:59
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Xelkelvos posted:The Sunshine Law but for Social Media and internet communities. It's more like putting a little signboard on the haft of the pike on which their severed head is displayed, or on a prisoner in the stocks. There was an interview or two about how hosed up modern social media is, and one directly with Lowtax was about how completely opaque moderation leads to a community going fully Lord of the Flies because as far as they're concerned being banned is the random wrath of God.
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Nov 2, 2018 17:25
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And on some forums while they're very open about the moderation as it's happening, they'll then silo the thread off into a moderator only forum. Removing any evidence of why it happened, along with any discussion of value that happened in the thread.
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Nov 2, 2018 17:37
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Then you have the absolutely worst ones where the banned person is unpersoned and you're not allowed to talk about them at all following the ban.
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Nov 2, 2018 18:13
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Red text avatars are also a useful thing, despite frequently being abused too. The fact they cost money (and more money than the user's own cost of updating their av), but the ability for the community itself to cause every user's post to reference their worst behavior for all to see. We're not a flawless community and I personally do not like Lowtax, not only because of his bad opinions and bad decisions about who to associate with in the past but also his bad posting and his infatuation with some of the worst subcommunities on SA; but I also think that SA itself is a worthwhile community worthy of preservation in part due to its structure. I know a lot of people, including some in this thread, tend to stick to a particular subforum that matches their interests, and their experience of SA is likely to be quite different from someone who sticks only to a different subforum. I have hopped around more; I'm a regular in AI, BFC, TFF/TAQ, SAL, and TG, and I have dabbled in GBS, D&D, GWS, SH/SC, T&T, TFD, the dorkroom, and more. Every one of those subforums have threads that are simply incredible resources for those interested; I've gone from "I think I can change the oil" to "I replaced my own automatic transmission" by hanging out in AI for a decade, I've started on a new woodworking hobby because of DIY, I learned how to photography, I fixed my finances and became competent at long-term retirement investment and planning, I learned how to play poker, and I became a fantasy football addict, all because of various SA threads and the people who post in them. And I've extracted and shared genuine joy and positive outcomes from things like running the TG secret santa. I've seen SA send hundreds of thousands of dollars to a dirt-poor elementary school in Haiti, save the life of a homeless goon in los angeles and an addicted goon in seattle, financially reform multiple goons in BFC threads, and save countless goons time money and effort by diagnosing their automotive problems, computer problems, cooking problems, home repair problems, etc. What I'm getting at is there's a lot here worth preserving, and I'm not willing to bail on it in order to make a futile and ultimately unnoticeable gesture in protest of Lowtax's worst tendencies. Perhaps I'd feel differently if I thought he hadn't learned anything, or was actively and presently hurting people... or perhaps I'm just rationalizing, and while bedlamdan is drawing a very false equivalency, he does correctly point out that we tend to rationalize failure to act 100% ethically when doing so means giving up something we value. But there's also such a thing as a net good. I genuinely think this particular community has done far more good than harm, and that is not only despite but at times because of its owner's decisions. No doubt somewhere there's a gaming group playing retro D&D games that also reached out to one of its members in serious trouble and saved them. But I don't think there's any aspect of the retro gaming community's leadership or structure or rules (formal or informal) that produces that outcome in particular, or any aspect of the game movement that makes it more likely than in some other gaming community. SA is different. It's got its flaws but it also has a proven, long-term track record of being a net positive for a lot of people, including literally saving lives. Shmorky or no shmorky, irrespective of Lowtax's deep and abiding flaws, we're the best forums community on the internet, I'm fully convinced of that.
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Nov 2, 2018 18:28
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Tom Holland is releasing a game about slavery, the abolitionists vs. the pro-slave interests; I can see not wanting to play that game. Some people have complained about the game art's anti-slavery bias. I fear, sometimes, that this hobby is hopeless.
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Nov 2, 2018 18:32
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I disagree completely with redtexts. I think it's an immoral system whose vulnerability for abuse has been proven several times (saw people being given extremely nsfw child porn/gore avs that took too long for a mod to remove and people had to buy other avs to cover those) and more often than not the text is outright slander from someone that's incredibly bitter from an internet argument but is too cowardly to put it into words. It's weaponized and monetized spite and it's a downright satanic thing that Lowtax conceived ot it
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Nov 2, 2018 18:34
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homullus posted:Tom Holland is releasing a game about slavery, the abolitionists vs. the pro-slave interests; I can see not wanting to play that game. Some people have complained about the game art's anti-slavery bias. I fear, sometimes, that this hobby is hopeless. eh it's just a hobby where you can gain a certain amount of cred from conspicuous consumption and whose socialization is mostly confined to at least somewhat wealthy-or-wealth-adjacent spaces, like colleges, cons, etc. It's bad, of course, but consider the politics of more expensive hobbies and you'll see a pretty direct line to worse things.
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Nov 2, 2018 18:35
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What redtext did you get plutonis?
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Nov 2, 2018 18:35
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Enola Gay-For-Pay posted:What redtext did you get plutonis? None. Unfortunately I was raised with a set of morals that considers things to be wrong without it happening to me, which I admit it's a disadvantage in life.
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Nov 2, 2018 18:37
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My current av is effectively a redtext that has been a good reminder to me to stop constantly contradicting people with long, know-it-all posts. Or at least that it's irritating. I mean, obviously it's only just barely having an affect, but... I appreciate its power. I know they've been abused, but I don't see that abuse as categorically different from people posting stuff that is against the rules; mods/admins can take a while to respond to reports on posts, too, but they do act and when the bad post or red text is clearly rules-breaking, they take care of it. Meanwhile people who post pro-alt-right bullshit in D&D can't wander into the automotive questions thread in AI and ask for help without everyone seeing them for who they are. It is an actual solution to the problem of unknowingly helping or supporting someone whose outspoken beliefs would make you shun them, if you actually knew about them, but you don't. It's a form of this: Terrible Opinions posted:Public shaming is something all forums should engage in and the failure to publicly put "user was banned for this post" with a little blurb why is probably the largest failure of social media sites around. Public shaming. Just like real public shaming, there has to be recourse for those who are unfairly targeted, or being abused for being a member of a protected class, etc.; but it's very not good to be able to behave intolerably in one place and then go to another place and have nobody the wiser that you're an awful person who does not deserve even the most basic courtesy.
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Nov 2, 2018 18:40
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Plutonis posted:I disagree completely with redtexts. I think it's an immoral system whose vulnerability for abuse has been proven several times (saw people being given extremely nsfw child porn/gore avs that took too long for a mod to remove and people had to buy other avs to cover those) and more often than not the text is outright slander from someone that's incredibly bitter from an internet argument but is too cowardly to put it into words. It's weaponized and monetized spite and it's a downright satanic thing that Lowtax conceived ot it Response time will never be perfect because we're talking about a team of unpaid volunteers. The report button works, though, and there is a contact info thread in qcs. I actually like red texts as weaponized butthurt personally, because it is really simple to get rid of them, and even if you're being owned, you can confidently know that whoever is doing it is Real Mad and spending actual money to put it there.
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Nov 2, 2018 19:02
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homullus posted:Tom Holland is releasing a game about slavery, the abolitionists vs. the pro-slave interests; I can see not wanting to play that game. Some people have complained about the game art's anti-slavery bias. I fear, sometimes, that this hobby is hopeless. This the sort of thing that calls for a computer adaptation so, you know, you don't have to deal with someone having to be the slaver side. Or some kind of thing where the slavers are a monolithic entity the players have to work against together, pandemic style. The thing is uh, in what context are you gonna bring this thing out? "Okay guys, shadowrun is postponed this week, I know we usually just do smash bros when that happens but I got this game, do you want to be the slavers or the-aw guys c'mon." Ronwayne fucked around with this message at 19:28 on Nov 2, 2018 |
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Nov 2, 2018 19:17
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There are also red texts that were probably meant to go to someone else. Not thinking of anyone.
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Nov 2, 2018 20:39
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I missed Orc chat by a page, but its a topic that had been on my mind for a while. I imagine a lot of the issue with Orcs, Hobgoblins, Gnolls and so on would be solved if someone just put out a version of the monster manual that said that all of those species, like everyone else, is mostly made up of farmers and craftsmen just doing their own thing and the ones that adventurers run into are just greedy belligerent assholes like the party members. The orc currently trying to stab you in the face could have chosen to live his life peacefully growing turnips, but instead he learned how to fight and so did you and now you're going to try to kill each other in a dark hole in the ground because you were both looking for gold and didn't want to talk it over when you bumped into each other. I'd run a game back in college where an Orc empire were one of the major political players on the continent. They were still warlike as hell, but they didn't just burn stuff down at random - they colonized the places they attacked, set up administration and public works, built and maintained things like roads and allowed non-Orcs to petition for citizenship with their empire for the benefits it could bring them. The other kingdoms in the setting still hated them, but it was because they were an aggressive imperialist state that was growing more powerful every year and not because they were just "evil" by some nebulous metric.
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Nov 3, 2018 02:02
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Wait a second those are just Englishmen.
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Nov 3, 2018 02:23
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Plutonis posted:Wait a second those are just Englishmen. Gruumsh confirmed that after Orxit, those 350 million gold pieces shan't be going to cure wounds potions after all.
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Nov 3, 2018 02:26
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Plutonis posted:Wait a second those are just Englishmen. So... the Orcs are invading the Elvish lands not for Elf skulls to sacrifice to their dark gods, but for their tea and silkworms. Yeah, I can dig it.
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Nov 3, 2018 02:42
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Plutonis posted:Wait a second those are just Englishmen. Yeah, them or the Romans, Mongols, Conquistadors, Americans, etc. Basically anyone who thinks "Nice country you've got here - I'll take it!" when they first sail up to your shores. Capfalcon posted:So... the Orcs are invading the Elvish lands not for Elf skulls to sacrifice to their dark gods, but for their tea and silkworms. A hobgoblin army marching in because they think its time they Manifest Destiny all over your kingdom should be terrifying enough without having to throw in "also they are controlled by demons" to justify fighting them IMO. Humans have been doing evil poo poo to each other for ages without the need for demonic intervention, just let goblins and company do the same thing. Or alternatively just have demons directly attack places so that you can kill them guilt free because they are literally shards of quasi-sentient evil that don't even remotely resemble anything human.
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Nov 3, 2018 02:58
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I would consider it much better plotting to establish a materialist reason for conflict between peoples, rather than D&D's "orcs be evil, and so they are"
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Nov 3, 2018 03:14
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gradenko_2000 posted:I would consider it much better plotting to establish a materialist reason for conflict between peoples, rather than D&D's "orcs be evil, and so they are" Yeah, and if you throw in the idea that most of the ones that aren't part of the army just want to be left alone to do their own thing that would pretty much be the end of the whole problematic demihumans issue. Go whole hog and have it just be nation-states that aren't necessarily drawn along species lines and you can have orcs, elves and humans marching together in the spirit of brotherhood to pillage the crap out of your homeland because you made the bad life decision to be born in a place that has a lot of gold producing mines.
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Nov 3, 2018 03:21
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Aren't those basically Warcraft orcs?
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Nov 3, 2018 03:25
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Bob Quixote posted:Go whole hog and have it just be nation-states that aren't necessarily drawn along species lines This is also a good idea
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Nov 3, 2018 03:25
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Atlas Hugged posted:Aren't those basically Warcraft orcs? Is that how they did it there? I thought they were controlled by demons or something like that?
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Nov 3, 2018 03:29
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Bob Quixote posted:Is that how they did it there? I thought they were controlled by demons or something like that? I'm going off of 20 year old memories from WC1 and WC2, but my understanding is that the orcs had destroyed their home planet and possibly previous home planets and needed a new place to live, so they invaded the human and elf planet. The majority of orcs were basically just farmers looking for a new life and a handful of their leaders had made pacts with demons for powers, but I think some of them were betrayed by the demons or betrayed the orc people in general and then became cast outs? Either way, the orcs themselves weren't inherently evil and the majority of them were just regular folks looking for a simple life but had to join the horde to escape the cataclysm on Orc-Prime.
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Nov 3, 2018 03:34
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Atlas Hugged posted:I'm going off of 20 year old memories from WC1 and WC2, but my understanding is that the orcs had destroyed their home planet and possibly previous home planets and needed a new place to live, so they invaded the human and elf planet. The majority of orcs were basically just farmers looking for a new life and a handful of their leaders had made pacts with demons for powers, but I think some of them were betrayed by the demons or betrayed the orc people in general and then became cast outs? Either way, the orcs themselves weren't inherently evil and the majority of them were just regular folks looking for a simple life but had to join the horde to escape the cataclysm on Orc-Prime. That's largely correct, yes. Later World of Warcraft plot development would retcon this to the extent that the Orcs were turned demonic because their leaders were tempted by demons who wanted them to destroy the Draenei that they shared their world with (because the draenei were escapees from the demons).
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Nov 3, 2018 03:39
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I believed it was phrased as "I don't think that Warcraft Orcs are all that misunderstood. Instead of aggressive, violent assholes hopped up on Demon-juice, they're now just aggressive, violent assholes who don't have an excuse anymore."
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Nov 3, 2018 03:56
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Hoooo boy, time to explain World of Warcraft orcs to people. This will be fun. So. Orcs were shamanistic ancestor worshippers from Draenor, divided up into a few different tribes, warred against some belligerent ogre tribes but were perfectly willing to let the Draenei crash (both literally and figuratively) on their planet. Then the demons who were chasing the Draenei were like. "Hrm, well we do need an army to gently caress up Azeroth, why not kill two birds with one stone?" And ended up finding an Orc who was willing to listen to them, teach him all the demon worshipping warlock stuff and got him to convince the rest of the orcs to drink demon blood. Which corrupted them and enslaved them to the will of the demons. The orcs, high off demon juice, slaughtered the Draenei, and made a portal out of their bones to travel to Azeroth and gently caress poo poo up there. They were marginally successful, but eventually were beaten back and cut off from their homeland, which subsequently exploded. Absent of a re-up of demon blood they lost their demonic bloodlust. To sum the entirety of Warcraft 3: One of the Orcs (Grom) drank some more demon blood, killed a lot of poo poo, was cleansed of the blood, realized how big he had hosed up, and killed the demon that had enslaved him. Thus freeing all orcs of his taint forever. And they rediscovered their shamanistic roots. Later Grom's son Garrosh was found, and was told about how his dad was a great hero who had saved his people. He took all the wrong lessons from this and decided that "Killing a lot of poo poo" meant "you are a hero". In one of the stupidest moves in a long line of stupid moves, he was made leader of the horde, and genocided his way across half a continent and drank the blood of an old god before he was stopped and put on trial for his crimes. He escaped from this trial with the help of a time travelling dragon and escaped into an alternate past Draenor that wasn't blown up. On this alternate Draenor he applied all his lessons of "Killing everything is the best way to be an orc" and whipped up the other orc tribes into a frenzied war machine, then brought them back to Azeroth to try and take back the Horde by force. He was beaten back, then killed, and in his absence the demons showed up and corrupted the alternate orcs.
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Nov 3, 2018 04:37
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LET'S DO THE TIME WARP AGAIN.
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Nov 3, 2018 05:05
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Let's not forget that they also decided to make the screaming blood thirsty rage a normal, natural Orcish trait and not a Demon induced thing. It turns out that Warcraft orcs really are just biologically more inclined to go into berserk killing sprees and enact horrific brutality on others. As the Orcs have doubled as an African/Jewish metaphor for some time, this is Unfortunate.
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Nov 3, 2018 05:21
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Loomer posted:Let's not forget that they also decided to make the screaming blood thirsty rage a normal, natural Orcish trait and not a Demon induced thing. It turns out that Warcraft orcs really are just biologically more inclined to go into berserk killing sprees and enact horrific brutality on others.
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Nov 3, 2018 05:38
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Obviously a lot of that was added as it went, but I'm guessing at least the demon juice stuff was present since WC1?
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Nov 3, 2018 05:41
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Atlas Hugged posted:Obviously a lot of that was added as it went, but I'm guessing at least the demon juice stuff was present since WC1? Nah, WarCraft 1 and 2 are just "there are orcs and they're evil and melodramatic."
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