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RE7 is also padded by an additional 2 or 3 hours that are pretty unnecessary.
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Nov 1, 2018 16:44
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Can't really say I felt that way myself, but opinions can vary.
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Nov 1, 2018 17:52
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Cardiovorax posted:Can't really say I felt that way myself, but opinions can vary. The whole boat scene felt like DLC they decided to insert into the game to pad the length. I don't think anything would've been lost if they skipped the boat and transported you to the mines after beating Mr. Baker.
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Nov 1, 2018 17:59
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Eh, I don't know, I think you may be in the minority there. It's really pretty integral to the plot, because it's how the game finally resolves the origins of that video you receive and that kicks the whole thing off. Plus, character switch moments like that are very traditional to the series. RE1, RE2, RE3 and RE4 all had one, and RE 5 and 6 are a bit too different to really compare to the rest of the series. I thought it was well-executed and just short enough not to outstay its welcome. If anything, I'd have expected you to dislike the mines instead, because they were comparatively rather boring, but the boat was something I believe most people really liked.
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Nov 1, 2018 18:11
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Len posted:That's a lot more work than I'm willing to do for a demo of a game that will never exist It is maybe five minutes of work, and it is a stand-alone thing, it was not going to be part of the full game at all, just a freaky experiment.
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Nov 1, 2018 18:20
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Cardiovorax posted:Eh, I don't know, I think you may be in the minority there. It's really pretty integral to the plot, because it's how the game finally resolves the origins of that video you receive and that kicks the whole thing off. Plus, character switch moments like that are very traditional to the series. RE1, RE2, RE3 and RE4 all had one, and RE 5 and 6 are a bit too different to really compare to the rest of the series. I thought it was well-executed and just short enough not to outstay its welcome. If anything, I'd have expected you to dislike the mines instead, because they were comparatively rather boring, but the boat was something I believe most people really liked. I disliked the mines but that's where the big plot twist takes place, and the pivotal moment in the boat scene referenced in the beginning of the game takes place during Mia's VHS tape. Everything in between when you're exploring the ship weaponless and hopping around the broken elevator feels like padding with little plot relevance. I feel like they could've gone from you being ambushed after seeing the tanker to waking up in the salt mines where you find the tape with Mia's confessional and the game just picks up from there. The most important thing that happens on the boat is Mia giving you Eveline's DNA which could've happened at an earlier point.
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Nov 1, 2018 19:00
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Morpheus posted:I think it's dumb to measure a video game's worth by its length. As someone who plays a lot of games with '60+ hours of gameplay!' marketed on their boxes (RPGs, mostly), I'd much rather have a tighter, shorter experience, price point be damned. Why? Time is money, and I've also gotten great experiences that lasted an average game time (7-8 hours) for half the price of a premium title like Hellblade. To charge $45 for 3 hours of content? lol Cardiovorax posted:Eh, I don't know, I think you may be in the minority there. It's really pretty integral to the plot, because it's how the game finally resolves the origins of that video you receive and that kicks the whole thing off. Plus, character switch moments like that are very traditional to the series. RE1, RE2, RE3 and RE4 all had one, and RE 5 and 6 are a bit too different to really compare to the rest of the series. I thought it was well-executed and just short enough not to outstay its welcome. If anything, I'd have expected you to dislike the mines instead, because they were comparatively rather boring, but the boat was something I believe most people really liked. People were very vocal about the boat section in the RE7 thread. I for sure was and still am, and I think it should have been left on the cutting room floor. Anytime I think about playing the game again I remember that I'll have to slog through the boat and don't even bother starting it up.
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Nov 1, 2018 19:00
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al-azad posted:I feel like they could've gone from you being ambushed after seeing the tanker to waking up in the salt mines where you find the tape with Mia's confessional and the game just picks up from there. quote:People were very vocal about the boat section in the RE7 thread. I for sure was and still am, and I think it should have been left on the cutting room floor. Anytime I think about playing the game again I remember that I'll have to slog through the boat and don't even bother starting it up. I can see why you guys wouldn't like it, it really does break up pacing a lot, I just don't agree that it's a bad and useless thing to have. I liked it and think it isn't any worse than the rest of the game.
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Nov 1, 2018 19:28
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s.i.r.e. posted:Why? Time is money, and I've also gotten great experiences that lasted an average game time (7-8 hours) for half the price of a premium title like Hellblade. To charge $45 for 3 hours of content? lol Yeah 3 hours is really short, whenever I hear a game is short, I'm expecting maybe 15 hours. But that really is short, dang. Still, I'd pay $60 for a game that was 20 hours, as long as each of those hours is filled with content and not padding. And by $60 I mean $60 USD. Here in Canada our new games are $80 to start.
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Nov 1, 2018 19:39
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20 hours is plenty. I've paid three dollars for much less than a whole hour's worth of entertainment. But yeah, when people these days say short, they mean short. The typical AAA action game these days clocks in at like 7 to 10 hours on average.
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Nov 1, 2018 19:42
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It's fair to judge game length when considering price but people's opinions will always differ in what the best conversion is. People have different preferences and limits, even within different genres. That said the 1h 1eur I sometimes hear is dumb
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Nov 1, 2018 19:42
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The Extra difficulty in the Witch's House MV is pretty good. It screws with you in all kinds of ways, so if you think the original game was a walk in the park, well!
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Nov 1, 2018 20:04
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Yeah, it's not 60, and I don't expect more than 10 hours of content when a game is voiced and has this level of graphic and marketing (still far short of an 2018 AAA title, but it's expensive enough to make I highly doubt the game is going to be long if it's not $60). If an Eastern European studio made it and 1C published this it'd probably be $20. I think you might be able to finish the game in as little as 2-3 hours in a speedrun. That said even if you don't comb through all the levels and talk to everyone, a regular blind playthrough is going to be more like 6 hours I'd say. The replayability is about the same as the recent Telltale games (so decent for some people, none for others). Able to get through skill-checks often just yield an extra line of comment and make no difference whatsoever so that was a bit disappointing. I also streamed the game on my channel as Holloween special material and my viewers enjoyed it and has some decent discussion about Occultism and Lovecraftian stories in general so that changed the equation a little bit for me. pedro0930 fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Nov 1, 2018 |
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Nov 1, 2018 21:11
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Cardiovorax posted:I suppose they could have, but I thought it was tense, scary and fun and gave Mia a chance to be something other than just the damsel in distress you're questing to save. It was nice getting to see first-hand how everything turned to poo poo. I liked the boat scene and also the chance to use a Bizon. I also appreciated it standing in for the traditional "Resident Evil Multi-floor puzzle/facility". It was also nice to see Mia in something other than a damsel in distress, you realize "Holy poo poo, she was actually kind of a badass this whole time" and doesn't get many chances to be herself in the game.
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Nov 1, 2018 21:43
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The boat, especially the parts in the present where ammo and resources are very scarce, was THE part where I said to myself "This is going to be hellishly hard when I play on that Madhouse mode." And then they had to go along and give us Ethan Must Die and holy crap is that one masochistic. At least with a Madhouse run you can have the unlocks!
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Nov 1, 2018 22:30
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Morpheus posted:Yeah 3 hours is really short, whenever I hear a game is short, I'm expecting maybe 15 hours. But that really is short, dang. I think 15 hours is more than most single player titles sans RPGs and such, for instance I paid $60 (actually more because I got the super dupe edition) of the newest Tomb Raider and clocked in 14 hours. I felt like the price was par for the course, though I felt like I didn't live up to the previous two titles. I also spent a lot of time doing optional stuff in the game, so if I just went through the story it would have been 10 and I still think that would have been fine. But that's an established franchise with AAA budgets and lots of content, COC? Not so much.
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Nov 1, 2018 22:34
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I found RE7 fairly short (or maybe RE6 being so long spoiled me). I think the issue with the boat section is how you have to do it twice, once as a mandatory flashback and then again afterwards. I think if it were just one or the other it wouldn't feel so tedious.
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Nov 1, 2018 23:02
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The boat stuff mucks up the pacing to be sure, but I think that’s because everything in the Baker house is just so well done and strong it’s difficult to live up to once you leave that setting. That and Jack Baker is the best antagonist in horror games in easily a decade. He just wanted a bed and breakfast 
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Nov 2, 2018 13:20
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SUPERMAN'S GAL PAL posted:The boat stuff mucks up the pacing to be sure, but I think that’s because everything in the Baker house is just so well done and strong it’s difficult to live up to once you leave that setting. That and Jack Baker is the best antagonist in horror games in easily a decade. The boat combines leaving a really good setting (the house), taking away your weapons, switching protagonists, and in a narrative sense, pretty much coming out of nowhere (boy I'm glad we left the house, time to esca-wait is that a boat?). It's not bad on its own, but all these things come together to make it an annoyance.
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Nov 2, 2018 13:24
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Morpheus posted:The boat combines leaving a really good setting (the house), taking away your weapons, switching protagonists, and in a narrative sense, pretty much coming out of nowhere (boy I'm glad we left the house, time to esca-wait is that a boat?). It's not bad on its own, but all these things come together to make it an annoyance. you also have to do it twice, which I'm sure didn't help
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Nov 2, 2018 14:20
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I gotta say, the tape version and the present time version of the boat were so completely different in visuals and atmosphere that they really didn't feel like the same place to me at all, so that's not a complaint I can really understand. If people didn't also feel that way about New House and Old House, what with with Old House really just being a more run-down and even grungier-looking version of what you just went through, then it doesn't really make a lot of sense to suddenly hate it when they do the same thing again with a different location. It's not like they literally make you run through the same location twice, they're two completely differently designed maps that just share parts of their basic layout. You even go through them by entirely different routes. If had just seen some video footage of both versions and without knowing the in-game context, I don't think I would've been able to tell that they're even supposed to be the same place at all. The "happy birthday" section was much more annoying to me, because it actually does make you do the same poo poo twice, step by step, and then it doesn't even have any actual payoff at the end.
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Nov 2, 2018 15:24
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Cardiovorax posted:I gotta say, the tape version and the present time version of the boat were so completely different in visuals and atmosphere that they really didn't feel like the same place to me at all, so that's not a complaint I can really understand. If people didn't also feel that way about New House and Old House, what with with Old House really just being a more run-down and even grungier-looking version of what you just went through, then it doesn't really make a lot of sense to suddenly hate it when they do the same thing again with a different location. It's not like they literally make you run through the same location twice, they're two completely differently designed maps that just share parts of their basic layout. You even go through them by entirely different routes. Here's my deal with the video tapes and the pacing of RE7: the videotape thing was exceptionally clever and I was disappointed they didn't lean harder on it. In each area of the game you watch a VHS tape which establishes the setting you're about to enter or reveals new information you didn't already have. Happy Birthday in particular is the cleverest Resident Evil has ever been because you go through this puzzle that's set up to fail you and then as Ethan you have to use that information to not gently caress up and Lucas still rigs it. For the boat section you don't get that same clever prescience because Mia's tape is straight combat while the boat section is a lot of backtracking errands. And that's largely why it overstays its welcome. You hardly spend any time in the old house and are then immediately thrust into a unique area to fight probably the best boss in a horror game. You spend even less time in Lucas' Jigsaw area and that's also fine because he was a fun character to deal with. RE7 is pretty well paced but right when you hit what looks like the climax j/k you still got another 2-3 hours baby in an alien location with a new character and we took away your weapons while putting the strongest enemy in the game prowling the halls so until you find a gun you just have to cheese the AI as you run room to room.
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Nov 2, 2018 16:30
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Sorry, but no, I really don't see it. A game that hands you a video walkthrough to itself? That's something you can, if you're want to be very generous about, call unique. But clever? No. It's almost literally the opposite of clever. The only way to "legitimately" succeed in that section is to have the solution handed to you in advance. It's the kind gimmicky bait-and-switch you'd find in an old Sierra game, where going into a puzzle and trying solve it in good faith gets you a humorous "better don't stand in the burning oil next time, boyo!" game over screen and an admonishment that you better go to Wizard NPC #1234 for the hint to the counterintuitive real solution next time. I'm not sure why you'd prefer that over a similar section that at least has some actual player agency and gameplay, even if it does maybe drag on a bit, but I think we're both expecting very different things from the game, so let's just agree to disagree.
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Nov 2, 2018 18:18
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Cardiovorax posted:Sorry, but no, I really don't see it. A game that hands you a video walkthrough to itself? That's something you can, if you're want to be very generous about, call unique. But clever? No. It's almost literally the opposite of clever. The only way to "legitimately" succeed in that section is to have the solution handed to you in advance. It's the kind gimmicky bait-and-switch you'd find in an old Sierra game, where going into a puzzle and trying solve it in good faith gets you a humorous "better don't stand in the burning oil next time, boyo!" game over screen and an admonishment that you better go to Wizard NPC #1234 for the hint to the counterintuitive real solution next time. Yes, you have to watch the video to get the solution but the game still insists the player put the pieces together. It works as both good horror narration by building up the villain in a much cleverer way than just having a cutscene and it works as a video game puzzle because even when the pieces are present the game still wants you to fit them together and then it subverts expectations further when the villain cheats. And that was my favorite part about RE7. As a game it's pretty average with annoying enemies and little interactivity with the environment. But the VHS segments are the greatest plot device I've seen in a horror game because they maintain player agency while dispensing new information. This is in a genre that has relied entirely on disconnected exposition in the form of notes and audio logs since its inception. Nearly 30 years of this kind of game and it took this long for one to say "what if... you could play the flashbacks? And they revealed new information in areas you thought were safe??" As a separate section the boat is fine, I was really into it for the most part, but by the end it was fatiguing. I didn't want more gameplay from RE7, the gameplay is average to begin with and it's exacerbated in Mia's section which is a lot of fighting and backtracking. I just beat Jack Baker, rescued my wife, and hit the climax of the story: I wanted the game to end but it didn't because a 4-ish hour long single player only $60 game is a bad look. al-azad fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Nov 2, 2018 |
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Nov 2, 2018 19:42
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Did anyone else find that Not A Hero actually did a great job as an experience? Chris being armed up was both fun and didn't prevent certain parts from being intimidating and the expanded salt mines seemed to work better than they did in the main game.
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Nov 2, 2018 19:50
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Agent Escalus posted:Did anyone else find that Not A Hero actually did a great job as an experience? Chris being armed up was both fun and didn't prevent certain parts from being intimidating and the expanded salt mines seemed to work better than they did in the main game.
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Nov 2, 2018 20:05
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al-azad posted:Nearly 30 years of this kind of game and it took this long for one to say "what if... you could play the flashbacks? And they revealed new information in areas you thought were safe??" And really, that's exactly what Mia's first tape was: an extended quicktime event of a cutscene by way of a forced stealth section. When you look at just those things in and of themselves, they're two of the most common answers players will give when you ask them what they really hate to see in a video game, along with sewer levels and escort quests. The way Capcom mixed it up made it feel a bit more novel, but under the bottom line, it's still just an old bad idea in a new wrapping. The simple fact alone that you're forced to play through something that you know has already happened and how it ended, yet can still somehow fail in some kind of weird indeterminate Schrödinger's Backstory kind of writing, really makes it feel only ridiculous and aggravating to me, not engaging. If you're going to complain about needless padding, complain about that part of it. It's dumb in the same way that it was dumb in Sands of Time when the Prince repeatedly went "...and then I feel down a hole and died. Just kidding, of course that didn't happen." If a game wants to have flashbacks, then fine. But don't make me have to manually act it out over and over just so that I can finally get back to actually playing the game. Cardiovorax fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Nov 2, 2018 |
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Nov 2, 2018 20:13
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QTE's got bad because developers misunderstood their origin. In Shenmue and the Dynamite Deka series, failing a QTE doesn't mean failing the game. They were a reward for paying attention and fast reflexes: you save a kid from a soccer ball but if the kid gets hit it's not the end of the game, just one less NPC to give you information and you feel bad for being a jerk. But later games used QTE's as a pass/fail state: Hoffman stabs you or Spider-Man faceplants. None of these enhance the game or reward the player's quick reactions, they don't open or close narratives, they just exist as a misguided attempt to keep the player watching the movies. Manually acting out a scene, even if it ends the same way, is exactly why RE7 is engaging when any other game would just tell you the solution. Video games, as an interactive medium, communicate concepts to the player through their familiarity. When you run through Mia's stealth sequence you're mentally learning the layout of the map including a detail that doesn't exist in the present because its blocked by a puzzle you now instinctively know to look out for. Its enhancing the narrative organically and now I'm paying attention to details I otherwise would've walked past looking for the next save box. When I think about Resident Evil as a series its most successful moments are about communicating its narrative through strong environments. RE2 is particularly impactful with its seemingly innocuous police station but as you dive deeper and realize that its grotesque clockwork nature is the result of the deranged chief being funded by Umbrella, that reveal is far greater than any standout scripted moment or chase. And the least exciting RE games like RE6 never spend time building believable levels. It's set dressing, just a non-interactive background for whatever action scene the game has you run through. Everything in the house portion of RE7 was perfect. Even when I was feeling down on the game for its combat and repetitive puzzles, I still pressed through because so much of the game was expressed through the environment. People always talk about "itchy, scratchy" because it's such a good scene but I think it was one-upped by Lucas' attic which is creepy by itself but even more unsettling when it implies that Lucas was a child murderer and his parents were either complicit in covering it up or just didn't know there was a corpse in their attic for years.
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Nov 2, 2018 20:58
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Agent Escalus posted:Did anyone else find that Not A Hero actually did a great job as an experience? Chris being armed up was both fun and didn't prevent certain parts from being intimidating and the expanded salt mines seemed to work better than they did in the main game. I was very pleased that they actually had Chris aim down the sights. Yes, it's a small meaningless thing but it's a nice little "Oh yeah, he's an actual soldier isn't he" bonus. That and the difficulty setting telling me "THIS MODE IS ONLY FOR PEOPLE WHO WANT TO SEE ZOMBIES GET PUNCHED" or something like that which made me lol.
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Nov 2, 2018 23:11
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smuh posted:Aside from Chris having an extremely different face and voice for no real reason. This is one of RE7's only story bits that nags me, I liked handsome RE6 Chris But then I like everyone's look in 6 a lot, Leon still has his style but his face is a little more seasoned by this point and Helena's initial outfit made me think of Sebastian in TEW1, Chris and Piers are Yardbomb fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Nov 3, 2018 |
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Nov 3, 2018 00:21
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Yardbomb posted:This is one of RE7's only story bits that nags me, I liked handsome RE6 Chris ... You forgot poor maligned Agent. I'm still reasonably sure it's just HUNK doing temp agency work.
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Nov 3, 2018 01:39
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Quicksilver6 posted:... You forgot poor maligned Agent. I'm still reasonably sure it's just HUNK doing temp agency work. If you played the game at launch Agent didn't exist. He was patched in after everyone complained about that chapter not having coop. So now people who got in late complain that he doesn't serve a purpose or interact with anything.
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Nov 3, 2018 02:09
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Agent was within us all along.
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Nov 3, 2018 02:18
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So I bought and played TEW2 a few hours and my thoughts so far: I started on Nightmare because I've played the original a lot. Big mistake. I couldnt get past two first enemies without dying a dozen times because the aiming feels very sensitive and enemies are super aggressive. So I switched to Survival and the the beginning stuff became more manageable with less enemies. The beginning feels pretty rough, you dont have a lot of tools so you either sneak slowly or run away from everything. I mistook a lady with a knife for a common enemy and it took me a while to figure how can I kill it with just a pistol and a crossbow. Turns out shock bolt stuns it just long enough to empty a mag on its head. Im not sure if I like the open world stuff but exploring stuff like the garage was pretty cool. Hoping the game picks up a bit when I get more upgrades and hopefully more weapons.
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Nov 3, 2018 13:23
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WaltherFeng posted:I mistook a lady with a knife for a common enemy and it took me a while to figure how can I kill it with just a pistol and a crossbow. Turns out shock bolt stuns it just long enough to empty a mag on its head.
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Nov 3, 2018 13:45
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Accordion Man posted:You also can two shot those enemies with a stealth attack. What do you mean exactly? Running off and exploiting aggro range to stealth attack twice? Thats kinda silly, even if its effective Also I had to google where to find the drat shotgun lol
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Nov 3, 2018 15:15
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WaltherFeng posted:So I bought and played TEW2 a few hours and my thoughts so far: I had the exact same experience as you did and I wonder if everyone who went into the second game with expectations that it would work like the first had the same bounce back. I was incredibly frustrated that enemies were basically rage zombies that patrolled in short, erratic patterns and had like 270 degree vision cones because they would twist and turn as they moved about. And Sebastian sneaks sooooooooooooooo slow that by the time you actually crept up on an enemy they already turned around. And yeah, the aiming at the beginning is absolute poo poo and I think it even has the same problem as Uncharted 3's aiming where with a controller you can only adjust horizontally or vertically, there's no diagonal aiming. This makes the laser pistol an actual trap because it zooms in at such a high degree that your accuracy with it is actually worse! There's a shooting gallery that opens up later in the game and you can tell they balanced it for controllers because I switched to the mouse and walked away with 30,000 goo in 5 minutes. But all of these complaints kind of disappear a couple upgrades in then the game became so easy that it was kind of a snoozefest for the most part. Upgrade sneak speed and you'll never have an issue with stealth. Save up all your parts to upgrade smoke bolts so that they allow stealth kills and you'll be clearing entire rooms with no issue. I saved up all my goo early to purchase the ability that lets you dash at enemies for stealth kills but honestly I found it unnecessary because the cheapest stealth upgrades turn you into Solid Snake. Within the first few hours I'm breezing through rooms and my stealth is so high the nurse is like "Uhhh there are other abilities, you know." The only difficult moments I had after that were a few sections later in the game when they introduce an enemy designed to make sneak kills difficult but by that point a single crossbow bolt from 300 feet away is the stealthiest option. WaltherFeng posted:What do you mean exactly? Enemies in this game are practically blind and deaf. You can sneak attack a hard enemy like the knife ladies, basically crawl behind them as they're recovering from the stun, then knife them again in the brief moment where the AI doesn't know where to look for you. It works all the time and is incredibly dumb. There's a sequence where you're crawling around in first person with a gas mask and there's a tough enemy patrolling. I think the game intends for you to sneak past it given the low visibility but no, I just knifed the drat thing, dashed behind a corner, it doesn't pursue it just immediately starts patrolling again. al-azad fucked around with this message at 16:38 on Nov 3, 2018 |
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Nov 3, 2018 16:32
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Huh, there's a PC port of P.T. on Itch.io. Wonder how long that will last. Tempted to pick it up, missed the boat to play it on PS.
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Nov 3, 2018 17:11
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al-azad posted:QTE's got bad because developers misunderstood their origin. Again, if that's what you prefer over the one usage of that technique in the entire game that has any real gameplay, or at least actually lets you see something in real-time that reveals something meaningful which even the character watching didn't know about themselves yet, I don't think there's any point in talking about it further. Resident Evil backstory is boring enough without having to actively play it. Cardiovorax fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Nov 3, 2018 |
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Nov 3, 2018 17:42
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Cardiovorax posted:No, they're bad because they're a bad concept that is bad0ly used and frustrating in games it doesn't belong in. When I play an action title, I don't expect any part of it to turn into a rhythm game out of nowhere. Just as much, I didn't expect Resident Evil 7 to turn into Simon Says or a repetitive Splinter Cell knockoff for large stretches. You misconstrue the intent of a design as like being inherently bad because people are misusing it. QTE's were a concept derived from Sega's arcade games as a reward for quick reflexes but were co-opted in single player games as a punishment for not paying attention. I truly believe there are very few bad concepts, the problem is when concepts are poorly implemented. People call tank controls a bad concept but they were designed for games with fixed camera angles and Silent Hill totally took a nosedive when it removed them. This is where we can't see eye to eye. I don't care about gameplay if the gameplay doesn't mean anything, that's the very definition of padding. Mia's boat sequence may be "real gameplay" but the actual plot relevant stuff is contained entirely in her VHS tape. RE7 was the first game in the series in nearly 10 years that made Resident Evil's twisting plot fun to experience again because they don't rely on the crutch of Wesker and whatever terrorist-of-the-week found a vial of zombie virus in the trash, but Mia's section is pumping the breaks on a moment that would've been the final boss in any other video game.
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Nov 3, 2018 18:44
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