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AnEdgelord posted:Magic weapons Wait I thought those were optional
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Nov 4, 2018 02:46
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Darwinism posted:Wait I thought those were optional Despite what people say I'm not entirely sure they are. If you want to run a game with nonmagical resistance/immunity monsters then you pretty much need to include them. I suppose the monsters themselves are optional but that all depends on what kind of campaign you want to run.
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Nov 4, 2018 02:51
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MonsterEnvy posted:In the most pedantic sense, classes don't need magic weapons. But even needing them is not bad design, you are expected to get them. You are expected according to Xanathar's guide to have 9 by level 5. I've been moving house for like a month now, but I just today unpacked most of my RPG stuff, which means I'm able to look at the book you're referring to here. With that in mind, would you care to revise this statement, at all?
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Nov 4, 2018 02:58
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AnEdgelord posted:Despite what people say I'm not entirely sure they are. If you want to run a game with nonmagical resistance/immunity monsters then you pretty much need to include them. I suppose the monsters themselves are optional but that all depends on what kind of campaign you want to run. I mean this all is true but what about the actual books in 5E teaches this
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Nov 4, 2018 03:20
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Darwinism posted:I mean this all is true but what about the actual books in 5E teaches this Xanathar's talks about it, saying it depends on what is being used in the game. Xanathar's Guide to Everything posted:ARE MAGIC ITEMS NECESSARY IN A CAMPAIGN? AlphaDog posted:I've been moving house for like a month now, but I just today unpacked most of my RPG stuff, which means I'm able to look at the book you're referring to here. MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 03:39 on Nov 4, 2018 |
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Nov 4, 2018 03:35
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Magic weapons. Magic weapons is the topic of conversation. Magic weapons.MonsterEnvy posted:No. Cause the Awarding Magic items section of Xanathar's brings up how many items characters are expected to get. Bring up Magic items rewarded by Tier. Showing they are expected to get 11 magic items by the end of tier 1. Though only 2 are supposed to be major magic items. It's the Monsterenvy Goalpost ShiftTM
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Nov 4, 2018 03:46
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Magic weapons are a subset of magic items
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Nov 4, 2018 03:51
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AlphaDog posted:Magic weapons. Magic weapons is the topic of conversation. Magic weapons. I'm hesitant to join this argument but the section he quoted does literally talk about magic weapons and to give them out if the party doesn't have a way to deal with resistance monsters or not to use those monsters.
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Nov 4, 2018 03:52
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frajaq posted:now I'm at the part where I'm designing my first encounter for my game Yes, with heavy caveats. The XP has to be multiplied to account for the fact that more monsters are more deadly simply as a function of their numbers. AnEdgelord posted:I'm sorry I'm not super familiar with the vagaries of 5e balance or encounter design but it sounds like the way to fix this is for the DM to make sure there is a steady drip of magic and/or silvered weapons for the party. Given the fact that magic weapons both exist and are designed for PCs to wield them it seems like this is the intended experience, otherwise why are they in game at all? Yes, the solution is for the players to actually receive magic weapons Yes, magic weapons actually exist The problem is that the game's rules don't support players receiving magic weapons (or the gold to buy them with) early enough, such that it's perfectly possible, if not downright likely, for the party to encounter a monster that will need a magic weapon to defeat, but without having a magic weapon available (even if they knew it was coming). The game also does not provide enough (in-book) guidance to the DM to avoid this from happening. The incident that prompted this conversation was an Adventurer's League module that threw werewolves against a low-level party, long before they'd be able to afford the silvered weapons needed to bypass their resistance. In contrast, the heavily regimented treasure allocation rules of 3e would guarantee that a player would have either a +1 weapon itself, or the wealth with which to buy one, by the time they're fighting enemies that would "need" magical weapons.
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Nov 4, 2018 03:52
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CubeTheory posted:I'm hesitant to join this argument but the section he quoted does literally talk about magic weapons and to give them out if the party doesn't have a way to deal with resistance monsters or not to use those monsters. I am specifically refuting his statement that in XTGE you are expected to have 9 magic weapons by level 5. This one: MonsterEnvy posted:In the most pedantic sense, classes don't need magic weapons. But even needing them is not bad design, you are expected to get them. You are expected according to Xanathar's guide to have 9 by level 5.
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Nov 4, 2018 03:55
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gradenko_2000 posted:
It's a pretty lovely module. The only other module to include early werewolves has the parties employer provide them with Silver Weapons. Cause they are being sent werewolf hunting.
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Nov 4, 2018 03:56
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AlphaDog posted:I am specifically refuting his statement that in XTGE you are expected to have 9 magic weapons by level 5. That was actually just lovely wording on my part and wrong info. I corrected myself that it was actually 11 after. I mixed up the 9 minor items with the total 11. I have been a bit out of it today, and have been forgetting words, but I intended Magic items from the beginning, but did not put in the context to make my words convey that, so sorry about my lovely wording. Though all 11 of those items could end being a weapon in a very unlikely case.
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Nov 4, 2018 04:02
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yeah that definitely seems like a problem with the module rather than some structural problem with 5e
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Nov 4, 2018 04:03
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MonsterEnvy posted:It's a pretty lovely module. The only other module to include early werewolves has the parties employer provide them with Silver Weapons. Cause they are being sent werewolf hunting. MonsterEnvy posted:Creatures with Immunity are unlikely to show up by late levels, when you would have the tools to deal with them. That you recognise it as a bad module is great, but surely you have to understand that when you know it exists, it's disingenuous to pretend that we're discussing a high level edge case that a good DM wouldn't allow to happen.
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Nov 4, 2018 04:03
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AlphaDog posted:That you recognise it as a bad module is great, but surely you have to understand that when you know it exists, it's disingenuous to pretend that we're discussing a high level edge case that a good DM wouldn't allow to happen. That is is unlikely does not mean it won't happen. The only way to win in that lovely modele from what I see, is for the casters to hit Werewolves with energy damage while the others disable them with grapples and pushes.
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Nov 4, 2018 04:06
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On a subject that might keep someone from being obnoxiously angry about everything. Does anyone have any thoughts/hopes on what the new setting book next year may end up being? With Ravnica coming up soon, and murmuring of there being even more MtG books I'm not holding out much hope for anything other than that.
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Nov 4, 2018 04:07
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Arthil posted:On a subject that might keep someone from being obnoxiously angry about everything. It's apparently not a magic setting. As it's supposed to be one of their older ones they have not used in 5e yet. If I were to bet, I would say Dark Sun, in order to introduce Psonic's or another Eberron release to bring in the artificer. Though I would take Planescape, Greyhawk or an actual Forgotten Realms setting guide. Spelljammer would also be cool, but it's been said not to be it already. MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 04:12 on Nov 4, 2018 |
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Nov 4, 2018 04:09
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Dark Sun and Planescape are at the very top of my list Dark Sun's 4e re imagining was solid gold and I would love to see it brought back along with the Sorcerer-King pact warlock. Meanwhile Planescape is just an extremely cool setting just because adventuring through the Outer Planes is cool.
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Nov 4, 2018 04:19
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AnEdgelord posted:Dark Sun and Planescape are at the very top of my list I forget was Dark Sun 4e the setting that killed off the Dragon? Not super familiar with the setting.
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Nov 4, 2018 04:20
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MonsterEnvy posted:I forget was Dark Sun 4e the setting that killed off the Dragon? Not super familiar with the setting. Though you should never go to it, 1d4chan has a run down that I'll edit slightly and post here 1d4chan posted:Cosmology: Athas is now a world where, during the Dawn War, the Primordials won and killed the Gods. The Elemental Chaos replaces the Elemental Planes. The Gray is still around, and is the local name for the Shadowfell, but the Black isn't mentioned. If one makes it through the Gray into the Astral Sea, it's empty; the Gods are dead, their halls are abandoned, and there's nothing but ancient celestial ruins and cosmic battlefields to scavenge through. The Feywild exists, but has been almost completely destroyed by defiling and its remaining pockets are zealously guarded by the Eladrin. The moons of Ral and Guthay are rich, verdant worlds in their own right, according to astrologers, but beyond the rumored existence of unpredictable "moongates" that allow access to them, nothing more is mentioned.
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Nov 4, 2018 04:27
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MonsterEnvy posted:It's a pretty lovely module. The only other module to include early werewolves has the parties employer provide them with Silver Weapons. Cause they are being sent werewolf hunting. Cool! Still doesn't address the issue at all, that the 5E books themselves give no clues as to this issue, but it's just great that you think it's a bad module for just... doing what 5E suggests is a perfectly okay thing to do!
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Nov 4, 2018 04:39
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4e dark sun did the setting a huge favor by resetting the timeline after years of metaplot and NPC heroes killing villains instead of PCs. But 4e did change the cosmology a bit to fit new 4e tropes like primordials and the feywild. 2e era had this weird prehistory where everyone was halflings before they hosed it up and everyone mutated into literally every other humanoid race, while the remaining halflings devolved into cannibals. Oh and they screwed up the sun. Twice. Here's some stabs at the Dark Sun cosmology from the 2e era: 
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Nov 4, 2018 04:42
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Darwinism posted:Cool! Still doesn't address the issue at all, that the 5E books themselves give no clues as to this issue, but it's just great that you think it's a bad module for just... doing what 5E suggests is a perfectly okay thing to do! As mentioned earlier 5e never suggests this is a perfectly OK thing to do. The only mention in the books about it is in Xanathar's, and it says If the party does not have ways to deal with enemies immune to non magical weapons, then give them magical weapons. ritorix posted:4e dark sun did the setting a huge favor by resetting the timeline after years of metaplot and NPC heroes killing villains instead of PCs. But 4e did change the cosmology a bit to fit new 4e tropes like primordials and the feywild. I know a little bit about the setting. And find it's cosmology interesting. I also remember some Planescape Material that talks about it, namely that it is possible to travel there, but near impossible to leave and because it's so horrible no one wants to go there anyway. The Harmonium was once criticized for their tactics, and attitude being similar to the people that caused Athas to turn into a Hellhole.
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Nov 4, 2018 05:56
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MonsterEnvy posted:As mentioned earlier 5e never suggests this is a perfectly OK thing to do. Yes it does. The DMG tells you that allocating treasure is at your discretion, and it also provides a random treasure generation system. Both of those ways of doing things can give no magic items whatsoever, or no magic weapons whatsoever, or both, or neither. AL has rules about treasure that you must follow. Those are the particular rules that created the situation being discussed, where it was impossible for the party to have magical weapons when facing a threat that was immune to nonmagical weapons. This more than "suggests that this is OK", it shows you how the game should go. This isn't an unintentional high level edge case, it's exactly what's supposed to happen. MonsterEnvy posted:The only mention in the books about it is in Xanathar's, and it says If the party does not have ways to deal with enemies immune to non magical weapons, then give them magical weapons. Xanathar's Guide To Everything? The book that's presenting "...an alternative way of determining which magic items end up in the characters' possession..." "This alternative method of treasure determination..." "The optional system described here..." Come the gently caress on, those are all from the first page of the XTGE magic item section. e: As for "it tells you not to use those creatures / give out more weapons"? Haha nope, that's not what it loving says. Look on page 136. You're reading the last two sentences and saying "that's all it says!", but seriously. Read the rest of it. The whole thing is geared towards "you totally don't need to give out any magic at all and everything's fine except in an edge case". You're cutting off the related sentence right before the bit that you think is proving your point. The underlined bit, that implies that what comes after it is specifically talking about a party with no magic whatsoever - No spellcasters, no monks, and holy poo poo, no "NPCs capable of casting Magic Weapon". quote:ARE MAGIC ITEMS NECESSARY IN A CAMPAIGN? Read the whole thing! It's literally saying that the only scenario where you want to avoid using nonmagic-immune creatures or else think about handing out more magic weapons is when the whole party has no magic whatsoever, not even an NPC who can cast Magic Weapon . That's when magic items become "necessary". That is very bad advice. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 07:05 on Nov 4, 2018 |
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Nov 4, 2018 06:28
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AlphaDog posted:Yes it does. The DMG tells you that allocating treasure is at your discretion, and it also provides a random treasure generation system. Both of those ways of doing things can give no magic items whatsoever, or no magic weapons whatsoever, or both, or neither. I posted the whole paragraph and read the other stuff, I know what it says. I disagree with you. The PHB even says that a party should have access to magic in some way or they are going to have a hard time. The Advice is accurate. There is also nothing wrong innately with random treasure. You are expected to get magic items with treasure hoards, the chance just is not 100%. AL from checking also allows you to cash in your time playing to get magic items. The issue is that they were using a module that had Non magical weapon enemies so early, When parties bearly have the resources to beat them. However they can be beaten. Some characters will just be fairly useless during that fight. Which sucks, but is not the end of the world. MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 07:56 on Nov 4, 2018 |
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Nov 4, 2018 07:48
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MonsterEnvy posted:I posted the whole paragraph and read the other stuff, I know what it says. I disagree with you. You think that it's good that the game pretends that magic weapons are not necessary, when they absolutely are for some classes to do their core job?
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Nov 4, 2018 07:57
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AnEdgelord posted:Dark Sun and Planescape are at the very top of my list "Okay, we all know about half Elves. Why have we never tried a half dwarf?" Human+Dwarf = MISTER CLEAN THE BARBARIAN Even if they can feel like "Wait, didn't we have goliaths already?", I just can't hate them 
Section Z fucked around with this message at 08:11 on Nov 4, 2018 |
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Nov 4, 2018 08:05
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AlphaDog posted:You think that it's good that the game pretends that magic weapons are not necessary, when they absolutely are for some classes to do their core job? They are not "Necessary" they are useful and always a boon. But you strictly don't need them. It's not pretending anything. You also seem to dislike most forms of randomization, so I would just say this is just a fundamental disagreement on our part. Section Z posted:I loved the concept of Mul from 4th ed Darksun. (I wouldn't be surprised if they existed before, I've just never heard of em until then). One of the 5e Playtest Adventure's Ghosts of Dragonspear Castle, featured Dworcs were were half dwarf, half orc.
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Nov 4, 2018 08:23
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MonsterEnvy posted:They are not "Necessary" they are useful and always a boon. But you strictly don't need them. It's not pretending anything. Not necessary unless you're a fighter and don't have one when you need it. Or are you arguing for "yeah but gently caress that guy?" E: and gently caress's sake, I'm all for randomisation. It's just that randomisation in 5th ed disproportionately screws martials, and "this might gently caress you up for no real reason" is a bad way to do randomisation in a ttrpg. E2: Also, randomisation of enemies and treasure can be real loving great, but haha, loving funnily enough, last time I posted about doing a game with random loot, I was told I didn't understand D&D because that's doing it wrong. Presumably because the story ended "we didn't roll a single magic weapon" instead of "and everyone ended up with the exact stuff they needed". Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 09:09 on Nov 4, 2018 |
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Nov 4, 2018 08:31
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AlphaDog posted:5th ed disproportionately screws martials. A time-honored DnD tradition.
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Nov 4, 2018 08:51
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I can never understand why the Dog gets so riled up out of anyone over this stuff. When it comes to the insane new rules for AL this season, it was enough to drive my Saturday DM away from running it entirely. Previously he'd be running those games on other days in the week that he was free via another discord but between the clusterfuck that is the loot point system, and that the rewards for DMing basically became not worth bothering at all, sucked a lot of the fun out of it for him.
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Nov 4, 2018 09:20
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AlphaDog posted:Magic weapons. Magic weapons is the topic of conversation. Magic weapons. All you've got to do is spend the entire common item budget on moon-touched weapons. Sorted.
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Nov 4, 2018 09:21
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Arthil posted:I can never understand why the Dog gets so riled up out of anyone over this stuff. The randomisation thing shits me pretty bad because I've written several effortposts over the years about how to run awesome random/sandbox games in D&D and D&D adjacent systems. I would have liked to update them for 5e but the required framework just is not there. The rest of it? You mostly answer the question in the second part of your post. I'm not gonna e/n about it, but I'm in a "no gaming because available gaming is bad gaming" situation from a month ago until probably february* and it sucks. Bullshit rules suck the fun out of the game, rules are important if you want to play D&D instead of something vaguely D&D-shaped, and the first step towards unfucking something is admitting that it's hosed. E: notice how literally nobody is telling the story of the cool and good time they had when the DM's I-am-technically-correct-no-visible-problem-here approach sidelined their PC for a couple of real hours on their one night off work or kid for the week? *plus semirural australian internet is some stone age bullshit and I can't even reliably stay connected to Discord right now, let alone actually use voice chat. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 10:50 on Nov 4, 2018 |
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Nov 4, 2018 10:30
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MonsterEnvy posted:I forget was Dark Sun 4e the setting that killed off the Dragon? Not super familiar with the setting. The Dragon got killed in the Revised 2e setting. It was the 4e one which said "gently caress that" and undid a lot of the awful, awful, terrible, gross, awful, garbage metaplot of Revised.
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Nov 4, 2018 12:11
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AnEdgelord posted:Magic weapons
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Nov 4, 2018 13:20
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Going back to CR discussion. Are there aby guidelines as to what CR bad guys with class levels have? What CR will a lvl 3 rogue have, for instance
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Nov 4, 2018 14:06
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DJ Dizzy posted:Going back to CR discussion. Are there aby guidelines as to what CR bad guys with class levels have? What CR will a lvl 3 rogue have, for instance
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Nov 4, 2018 14:19
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Shadow of Moil: basically gives me all the advantages of invisibility when I fight?
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Nov 4, 2018 14:35
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Arthil posted:I can never understand why the Dog gets so riled up out of anyone over this stuff. I'd like to hear what his concerns with dm awards are, since they seemed pretty reasonable to me this season.
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Nov 4, 2018 15:48
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quote:The D&D game is built on the assumption that magic items appear sporadically and that they are always a boon, unless an item bears a curse. What a waste of ink. The text repeatedly and immediately contradicts itself It's always true, except when it's false It's never needed, unless it is All that poo poo should boil down to "adventurers need magic to surpass many if not most obstacles. The magic can come from many sources- items, PCs, NPC hirelings/allies, etc"
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Nov 4, 2018 16:26
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