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It’s funny because the only real Snoke “mystery” actively perpetuated by TFA is that he wants Rey for some undefined purpose (“Bring. Her. To. Me.”) This is actually followed through on as one of the central narrative arcs in TLJ, with his scheme to use the Force projections to lure Rey to him so, we find out, he can plumb her mind on Luke’s whereabouts and also eliminate her as a potential seed of rebirth for the Jedi.
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Nov 4, 2018 15:44
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Cross-Section posted:It’s funny because the only real Snoke “mystery” actively perpetuated by TFA is that he wants Rey for some undefined purpose (“Bring. Her. To. Me.”) Yeah; the whole "who is snoke, where did he come from?" mystery is one people made up for themselves. I'm sure future works will delve into his origins, but it wasn't really made out to be a big deal in TFA or TLJ. Certainly no moreso than Palpatine's origins in the OT.
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Nov 4, 2018 15:47
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jivjov posted:He had a moment of blind panic and drew his saber when he sensed Ben was going to become Neo-Hitler. A moment that he immediately regretted. A moment that he didn't act on, other than drawing the saber. If you bring this over into real life it would read something like: "He had a moment of blind panic and pointed his handgun [at his sleeping nephew to whom he was entrusted] when he sensed his nephew was going to become Neo-Hitler. A moment that he immediately regretted. A moment that he didn't act on, other than clicking the safety off of his handgun and pointing it at his nephew." Which, frankly, if you were a parent (like Leia or Han) and heard that your sibling did this to your kid, you would likely never speak to them again. I mean it's not even like Luke's "vision" can be trusted. "Always in motion is the future", remember? Plus like, that is his reaction? Attempted murder? Not "oh yikes this looks pretty drat bad I better keep an even closer eye on and adjust my methods, poor Ben must really be hurting inside"? If there's mean to be a parallel with how Yoda and the masters overlooked Anakin's suffering, then Luke should have suffered the same fate as Yoda, who explicitly did not get to go out in a smug shoulder brush blaze of glory. He died in a hovel, having had to live in alone with his failure and watch the galaxy crumble around him. It's lowkey horrifying that we see Luke do all of this and then are meant to go "omg lol owned" when he smugly tools on the nephew he abused. It's loving wild. It would have been more fitting for Luke to have reacted the way Obi-Wan did to Anakin on Mustafar. He's genuinely pained and realizes how badly he's hosed up. He later steeled himself, but he understands the gravity of what he'd done. Waffles Inc. fucked around with this message at 16:08 on Nov 4, 2018 |
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Nov 4, 2018 16:03
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Waffles Inc. posted:If you bring this over into real life it would read something like: Yeah, that's a really lovely thing to do. Just like what Luke did. But he didn't swing the saber. Or in your analogy, pull the trigger.
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Nov 4, 2018 16:16
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jivjov posted:Yeah, that's a really lovely thing to do. Just like what Luke did. The point being that Luke doesn't face any consequences for this action, which is a horrible one, and even worse, he showboats and purposefully humiliates the nephew he abused and almost murdered
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Nov 4, 2018 16:19
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Waffles Inc. posted:The point being that Luke doesn't face any consequences for this action, which is a horrible one, and even worse, he showboats and purposefully humiliates the nephew he abused and almost murdered I think watching his life's work be destroyed, and all his students murdered in front of him, and going into lovely exile and wiating to die for 20 years is a consequence.
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Nov 4, 2018 16:26
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It's a bit weird though when people try to use real-world analogies for the Luke/Ben thing, because of the whole, you know, mind-reading aspect.
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Nov 4, 2018 16:26
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bunnyofdoom posted:I think watching his life's work be destroyed, and all his students murdered in front of him, and going into lovely exile and wiating to die for 20 years is a consequence. Also, his nephew did actually become Neo-Hitler. I doubt Luke could have un-Hitler'ed him by falling to his knees and begging forgiveness, Kylo had shanked his own dad a week earlier and also helped murder trillions.
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Nov 4, 2018 16:47
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bunnyofdoom posted:I think watching his life's work be destroyed, and all his students murdered in front of him, and going into lovely exile and wiating to die for 20 years is a consequence. It's less that he doesn't face consequences and more how bad of a look it is for him to be showboating and shoulder brushing and all that poo poo Cross-Section posted:It's a bit weird though when people try to use real-world analogies for the Luke/Ben thing, because of the whole, you know, mind-reading aspect. Force visions are incredibly vague and often outright inaccurate. The primo Jedi even says the future is "always in motion". Using a vision as a pretext for murder is bullshit
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Nov 4, 2018 16:47
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Cross-Section posted:It's a bit weird though when people try to use real-world analogies for the Luke/Ben thing, because of the whole, you know, mind-reading aspect. If we keep comparisons isolated to within the series itself, then we should keep in mind is that Luke isn't just mind-reading but prognosticating -- which is a skill that is not only shown not just to be fraught merely on its own, but one that is particularly sensitive to being clouded by the dark side.
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Nov 4, 2018 16:47
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Grendels Dad posted:Also, his nephew did actually become Neo-Hitler. I doubt Luke could have un-Hitler'ed him by falling to his knees and begging forgiveness, Kylo had shanked his own dad a week earlier and also helped murder trillions. In part because of what Luke did. It's not a stretch based on what we see to think that Ben was a pained, sad child--it appears that his proxy father figure attempting to murder him severed his only connection to "good"
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Nov 4, 2018 16:50
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Even within the film Luke is shown to be a compulsive liar. Also, in real life child abuse scenarios it is extremely rare to have "just one little moment of weakness". I find it highly likely that Luke abused Kylo even more than we were shown.
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Nov 4, 2018 17:07
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Also, I don't buy the argument that Luke faced consequences for what he did. For one thing, all this poo poo took place when there was a space democracy with space courts (one that he supposedly believed in and fought to establish); he doesn't get to decide what the punishment is for what he did. That's what law is for. If you go on the run for 20 years after you commit a heinous crime, your sentence doesn't get written off because you already faced consequences for what you did. Rather than go through the humiliation of the legal process Luke opted to kill himself. The real consequence would have not just been living with what he did, but living with other people knowing what he did. Including Leia, who he never bothered to tell; it was more important in their last moments together to give her some lovely ghost dice I guess???? Man it is pernicious that this stupid rear end movie leads a bunch of broke brains, many of whom are of parenting age, into victim blaming for child abuse
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Nov 4, 2018 17:25
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There's no established pattern of abuse. Luke, after having a psychic premonition from a supernatural force that is actually an extant Power in the setting (so no comparing to real world people who claim to hear the voice of some god or another), draws his saber and immediately regrets it. He doesn't strike Ben, there's zero evidence that he had ever son anything abusive toward him prior to that incident, and it turns out he was actually right on the money about Ben turning out to be a despotic murderer. He handled the situation the wrong way, sure, nobody is denying that. But to claim that we're victim blaming Ben or excusing child abuse is asinine.
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Nov 4, 2018 17:29
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jivjov posted:There's no established pattern of abuse. Luke, after having a psychic premonition from a supernatural force that is actually an extant Power in the setting (so no comparing to real world people who claim to hear the voice of some god or another), draws his saber and immediately regrets it. Yes, which was a horrifically traumatic thing to do to anyone, let alone someone under your guardianship.
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Nov 4, 2018 17:37
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Schwarzwald posted:Yes, which was a horrifically traumatic thing to do to anyone, let alone someone under your guardianship. Literally nobody is denying this
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Nov 4, 2018 17:38
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The first order the First Order was named after was for space marshals to bring Luke to space court to face space justice. Things got a little out of hand.
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Nov 4, 2018 17:44
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Space CPS became an incredibly weak institution after mon mothma gummed up the galactic bureaucracy with the insane decision to move the capital of the entire galaxy every 5 years. Ultimately this led to all space society being reduced to the space wild west. This was well timed to be highly beneficial to the skywalker cabal and their political agenda, seeking to avoid scandal and/or justice for how the kylo affair was handled. It seems just a little like a conspiracy 
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Nov 4, 2018 17:52
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No Mods No Masters posted:This was well timed to be highly beneficial to the skywalker cabal and their political agenda, seeking to avoid scandal and/or justice for how the kylo affair was handled. It seems just a little like a conspiracy I am reminded of the one EU story - the Jed Academy trilogy - where one of Luke's apprentices is turned to the dark side by the spirit of an ancient Sith Lord, steals an Imperial superweapon and uses it to blow up a planet and kill a billion or so people, then he turns himself in and instead of puttung him on trial the senate says, "Listen, you're a Jedi, so go back to Luke Skywalker and let him decide what to do with you because he's a main character, so he knows best."* In a previous story, Luke had turned to the dark side and became the apprentice of Palpatine's clone and supreme commander of the Imperial forces who were going about mass murdering people, but it was never held against him after that because he was a main character. What I am saying is that in every possible version of Star Wars, the Republic senate and its courts are in the pocket of Big/ger Luke. * Years later, Luke appoints him as a member of the Jedi Council.
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Nov 4, 2018 18:09
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jivjov posted:
He said, while victim blaming Ben. Did it occur to you that maybe Luke was "right on the money" about Ben because his actions are what made his visions come true?
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Nov 4, 2018 18:44
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It is a dumb plot contrivance that could’ve been easily avoided. It would probably be helpful to understand more about Luke’s culpability w/r/t why half his students were seemingly locked and loaded for the mutiny as soon as Kylo said the word. Had Kylo been plotting this for some time? Or was Luke just a garbage mentor? Certainly if we was willing to go to the brink of killing a sleeping child he probably did some other not-so-nice things.
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Nov 4, 2018 18:50
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It's all very thin. The idea of it being a moment of weakness is thin because it gives What Luke Did the least possible impact. It's not a systematic failure or a character flaw, it's a two second lapse of judgement (and who doesn't have those?!) Oh and he was totally right about Kylo anyway.
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Nov 4, 2018 19:08
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Grendels Dad posted:Also, his nephew did actually become Neo-Hitler. I doubt Luke could have un-Hitler'ed him by falling to his knees and begging forgiveness, Kylo had shanked his own dad a week earlier and also helped murder trillions. Kylo ren is just a guy doing work in the new country of the empire. He’s not the leader, and he doesn’t have any grand visions of mass murder or anything. He just angry and motivated and white and this reads as fascism I guess? Fuckinf lol he’s basically the only likeable character they made
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Nov 4, 2018 19:37
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Say what you will about leia and mon mothma, but their scheme to massively downsize the galactic government was so popular that the entire galaxy apparently found being ruled by screaming hitlers preferable. Maybe regressing a spacefaring society to wild west times isn't such a great platform, who knew
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Nov 4, 2018 19:37
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Luke is using the same rationalization Obi-Wan did, compartmentalizing the two different periods of his protege's life, so that before and after his throwing in with a genocidal dictator he's effectively different people. He regrets his role in sending him to the red team, even if he doesn't fully understand it, but he is now called on to stop him from continuing doing the red team's work, and thinks "I will do what I must." Since his presence on Crait is an illusion, all he can really do to that end is intimidate Kylo Ren, which is what the showboating and so forth was about, a show of mastery designed to slow him down so that the Resistance could escape. In the context of the larger film, he's been persuaded that his best shot at redemption is to try again with a new pupil. It's quite unfair to the old one that he hosed over.
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Nov 4, 2018 20:12
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luke's vision is analogous to anakin's in episode 3. "we often meet our destiny on the road we take to avoid it."
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Nov 4, 2018 21:36
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Waffles Inc. posted:The point being that Luke doesn't face any consequences for this action, which is a horrible one, and even worse, he showboats and purposefully humiliates the nephew he abused and almost murdered Murder ?? Ehhh. It would have been justified to kill Kylo then.
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Nov 4, 2018 22:32
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Also at one point Leia tells Han that Snoke turned Ben to the dark side, but I'm curious as to how he managed that while Ben was still a student of Luke's. But I guess that's another question we'll never know the answer to.
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Nov 4, 2018 22:36
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Leia might be wrong too. Ben could have just been evil.
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Nov 4, 2018 22:38
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euphronius posted:Leia might be wrong too. Ben could have just been evil. Certainly possible. Luke could have just told her, "Yeahhh... Snoke did it! That's the ticket!"
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Nov 4, 2018 22:40
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Leia is also psychic.
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Nov 4, 2018 22:43
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SolarFire2 posted:Also at one point Leia tells Han that Snoke turned Ben to the dark side, but I'm curious as to how he managed that while Ben was still a student of Luke's. It's all there in the NuEU that nobody ever reads; apparently Snoke was able to communicate with Ben while he was training under Luke (likely with the same ability he used to connect Kylo and Rey's minds?) but naaah, not in the movies, so therefore non-canon to a lot of people
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Nov 4, 2018 22:48
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That's the implication from TLJ, but then Ben asks Rey "how are you doing this?" as though he's never experienced a ForceTime call before which is dumb because he obviously would've recognize it as Snoke's handiwork.
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Nov 4, 2018 22:50
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Jewmanji posted:That's the implication from TLJ, but then Ben asks Rey "how are you doing this?" as though he's never experienced a ForceTime call before which is dumb because he obviously would've recognize it as Snoke's handiwork. If he's used to Snoke doing it, then of course he'd be surprised to see Rey doing it, and she's never going to listen to anything he has to say (at first, anyway)
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Nov 4, 2018 22:56
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Or leia knew smoke didn’t do it but says he did because she can’t handle the truth.
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Nov 4, 2018 22:58
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Vinylshadow posted:but naaah, not in the movies, so therefore non-canon to a lot of people [citation needed] 
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Nov 4, 2018 22:59
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Wheat Loaf posted:[citation needed] The "20,000" videos on YT calling the ST bad, I suppose?
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Nov 4, 2018 23:01
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Vinylshadow posted:If he's used to Snoke doing it, then of course he'd be surprised to see Rey doing it, and she's never going to listen to anything he has to say (at first, anyway) The way it’s depicted it is as though they are both experiencing ForceTiming together for the first time.
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Nov 4, 2018 23:35
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“You’re not doing this. The effort would kill you” Implying it’s too advanced for her. I don’t think this is new, just a weird turn of events for them.
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Nov 4, 2018 23:59
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The problem with the way the Luke/Ben falling out happens is, to quote Seinfeld, they yada-yada'd the interesting part. Luke's vision of Ben's future evil, whatever means it was that Snoke used to corrupt him, how Luke related to the other students etc etc, that's the stuff that's interesting. Instead we get one line from Luke about how he sensed a problem and oh well, Snoke had done a bad already. And while I don't have a problem with Johnson throwing Snoke in the garbage where he belongs, it probably would have been better overall if they had talked about it before filming VII and just not included him as a character at all. Nothing would be lost if he never existed and the First Order was always just run by dudes like Hux, with Kylo being the sole religious element of their group. And Luke stunting on Kylo is very gross, indicating that he hasn't learnt a damned thing. As is him telling Leia "Eh, Ben's gone, there's no redemption there" and Leia being all "I know" when it was like two days ago that she told Han that Kylo could be saved and she seemed to sense his hesitation to fire missiles at her earlier, so what happened to change her mind? Both Luke and Leia come across as very callous in that convo IMO.
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Nov 5, 2018 00:03
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