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ToxicSlurpee posted:Smithers actually got answered; it was specifically stated that he isn't homosexual he's Burnssexual; as in the only person he feels any sexual attraction to at all is Mr. Burns. It isn't being broadly gay it's that he's only attracted to one, singular person who happens to also be male. Even that explanation didn't hold long, notably in his vacation in Homer the Smithers.
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Nov 4, 2018 20:25
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Billy Gnosis posted:Even that explanation didn't hold long, notably in his vacation in Homer the Smithers. Also the episode with John Waters.
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Nov 4, 2018 20:43
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I think a lot of people underestimate how huge the mafia used to be. Like the how everything we associate with Las Vegas, which is technically speaking not actually Vegas but the city of Paradise, was founded as a tax dodge/money laundering scheme by the mob.
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Nov 4, 2018 20:56
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burial posted:Can you think of other characters that would fit that trend? because what you’re saying feels true to me, but I can’t put my finger on anything solid. I've been thinking about Smithers from The Simpsons lately in relation to this thread and the recent controversy and removal of Apu. I think I came to the conclusion that Smithers was a parody of how gay people were handled on TV in prior decades, where you could do anything but openly declare that they were gay, and instead rely on either stereotypes or signposting. I don't think the joke was there from the beginning, but it ran for a long, long time (perhaps it still is, I haven't watched it in about 15 years).
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Nov 4, 2018 21:06
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Smithers actually got answered; it was specifically stated that he isn't homosexual he's Burnssexual; as in the only person he feels any sexual attraction to at all is Mr. Burns. It isn't being broadly gay it's that he's only attracted to one, singular person who happens to also be male. Thinking about it now, there's a 2 gags with Smithers - that he's in the closet, and that he's in love with Mr Burns. Without rewatching all the episodes I couldn't tell you if they ran in parallel or if one came after the other. The closet gag probably flies a little close to stereotyping (a Hawaiian shirt clad Smithers in a conga line in an implied gay club, etc). The Burns gag is more about their relationship, and how Burns has no regard for the wellbeing of a man who will do absolutely anything for him. EvilGenius has a new favorite as of 21:42 on Nov 4, 2018 |
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Nov 4, 2018 21:13
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^^^yeah that's loving dumb^^^EvilGenius posted:I've been thinking about Smithers from The Simpsons lately in relation to this thread and the recent controversy and removal of Apu. The first "blatantly gay" character I can think of, besides Billy Crystal on "Soap" was a character named "Monroe on a pretty obscure show called "Too Close For Comfort". It was a bad show all around and the character was written dumb as hell but the material did everything except openly state "this guy is queer". Smithers handling was fairly progressive relative to the times. Gay characters when I was growing up, in movies or anywhere else, were always played for dumb campy laughs and plagued by horrible stereotypical writing. The first sympathetic gay characters I can even remember in film were the red headed guy from "Fame" and the school kid in Midnight Cowboy that Jon Voight hustles. Certain shows tried to tackle the subject (All in the Family, Cheers, SOAP) but, again, the whole emphasis was always "whoooo...they're gay" and usually their entire role was usually played for how uncomfortable the weird person made all the main straight players feel.
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Nov 4, 2018 21:38
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I just remembered the 'hilarious' scene in one of the Police Academys where they inadvertently find themselves in a gay club, complete with Village People. loving horrible.
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Nov 4, 2018 21:45
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EvilGenius posted:Thinking about it now, there's a 2 gags with Smithers - that he's in the closet, and that he's in love with Mr Burns. Without rewatching all the episodes I couldn't tell you if they ran in parallel or if one came after the other. A little close to stereotyping? I haven't watched The Simpsons in 10 years or so but another specific Smithers characteristic I remember was his massive
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Nov 4, 2018 21:52
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EvilGenius posted:I just remembered the 'hilarious' scene in one of the Police Academys where they inadvertently find themselves in a gay club, complete with Village People. loving horrible. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niumQLDL_k0
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Nov 4, 2018 21:55
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BiggerBoat posted:The first "blatantly gay" character I can think of, besides Billy Crystal on "Soap" was a character named "Monroe on a pretty obscure show called "Too Close For Comfort". Unless we’re intentionally avoiding the conflation of “blatantly gay” and “outrageously camp” we should probably consider Paul Lynde’s entire career.
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Nov 4, 2018 22:16
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Sunswipe posted:I always saw Garak as asexual as a result of his upbringing and career. He'd been manipulated and manipulated others so much that there was no way he'd leave himself vulnerable to anyone. Well, there was Ziyal, Gul Dukat's teenage half-Bajoran daughter, that Garak winds up in a relationship with during the occupation season. It'll be while before my DS9 rewatch gets to that point. As I recall, the only close relationship that Garak has with any character in DS9 that /doesn't/ end badly is with Bashir.
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Nov 4, 2018 22:18
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Smithers actually got answered; it was specifically stated that he isn't homosexual he's Burnssexual; as in the only person he feels any sexual attraction to at all is Mr. Burns. It isn't being broadly gay it's that he's only attracted to one, singular person who happens to also be male. with the character being around for like 30 years i'm sure a lot has changed as time has gone by, especially with new writers coming and going, but that was my personal impression of the early seasons... or more exactly, the joke was that he was a such a corporate brown-noser that he actually fell in love with his boss somewhere along the way and it's influenced his overall sexuality https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PkIow-09Cw&t=73s i'm sure that interpretation is totally out of favor by now tho
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Nov 4, 2018 22:20
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I feel like Mission Hill handled their gay couple really well, if you're looking for portrayals that did not age poorly.
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Nov 4, 2018 22:22
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Lazlo Nibble posted:“Love, Sidney” ran around the same time; I remember it being considered a big deal that Tony Randall’s character was acknowledged as explicitly gay by the showrunners (but barely mentioned on the show itself) and that it wasn’t being played for laughs like Billy Crystal’s character was. Barney Miller had a recurring gay character (a person living near the station). Like most gay TV men of the era, he was of the "swishy" variety. Wojo had a problem with him (but he was pretty much a Neanderthal anyway), but Barney and the rest of the squad never made an issue of it.
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Nov 4, 2018 22:28
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Whoops, I read the comments. Wow, a lot of people lament the loss of scenes like that in today's movies. ceasar349 posted:I miss the days before political correctness. This scene would never happen in today's liberal sissy movies Nah mate, it won't happen today because it's not funny and is based around an 80s stereotype that an entire generation won't even recognise. Zak Ras posted:One of the most iconic scenes from the entire franchise, and it doesn't have a single word of dialogue I guess having the straight guys say 'oh my god, it's gays!' was beneath the writers talents in this masterfully written iconic scene. Richard Ian Tracy posted:
No, I'm pretty sure that wasn't the joke. Galimah posted:This was so scary when I was a kid. Imagine to be trapped in that place Imagine being trapped with GAYS, lol. I can't believe in 2018 people still find that poo poo funny. EvilGenius has a new favorite as of 22:48 on Nov 4, 2018 |
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Nov 4, 2018 22:42
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ulex minor posted:obviously we're overlooking the unresolved sexual tension between goliath and xanatos in this serious debate. It's not unresolved in my fanfic.
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Nov 5, 2018 00:13
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the_steve posted:I feel like Mission Hill handled their gay couple really well, if you're looking for portrayals that did not age poorly. Easily seconded. I especially like the episode where Gus doesn’t want to pull the knife out of his head so Wally welds a bunch of poo poo to it. Classic.
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Nov 5, 2018 00:19
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The Simpsons eventually landed on Smithers being openly gay in his personal life, but generally hiding it at work, and of course absolutely having a huge crush on Mr. Burns. And it works, they turned what was an acceptable if not tasteful joke from the early 90s into representation as positive as you got from The Simpsons. I think the reason you saw that with Smithers but not with Apu, was because the showrunners that let that happen with Smithers (I think that the switches were mostly flipped during the Bill Oakley/Josh Weinstein years but I'd have to check) were willing to shake up the status quo, especially with a fairly minor character. 'Fixing' Apu would be a lot of effort by people who really don't want to expend it at this point in the show's life, because such a huge amount of his character is built on stereotypical jokes about Indians. That's a lot to handle, and at this point the Simpsons is only really willing to shake up the status quo if they have to, like when Mrs. Krabappel's VA died. Also cureent showrunner Al Jean is on record as neither understanding nor respecting the concerns about Apu, so that shoots any attempts at character rehabilitation dead in the water.
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Nov 5, 2018 00:25
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The Bee posted:I don't think we need to pretend that internet funnymen The Brothers Chaps were at the forefront of progressiveness, or that they were malicious just because a few jokes that were innocuous enough in the 2000s land less these days. I didn't say they were malicious. I said there are aspects and incidents that aged poorly.  As for gay people in old media and signposting, remember Three's Company, whose premise was that they constantly had to manufacture signposts that John Ritter's character is gay and hide the evidence that he's straight so that the landlord would continue renting to him and two women, as a co-ed living situation was too scandalous for him?
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Nov 5, 2018 00:29
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MorgaineDax posted:Garak from Deep Space 9. iirc Andrew Robinson originally played Garak as openly bisexual and was attracted to Bashir but was told to tone it down. Might just be hearsay though.
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Nov 5, 2018 00:58
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No, Robinson has been very clear on the subject of Garak's sexuality. It's basically a hard yes if he finds you fascinating, no matter the species or gender. He's so Pansexual he went back in time and was the original inspiration for pansexuality.
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Nov 5, 2018 02:17
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I could have sworn there was either an interview or an article about the various gay characters in media and public perception, specifically about John Inman/Mr. Humphies on AYBS? I think they said something like in the years before Mr. Humphies, a lot of the media seemed to have presented many characters of a gay/lesbian coding or portrayal as dangerous, crazy, corrupting, murderous, molesting, etc. (if they featured them at all) There seemed to be an overall notion that Humphries was an example of a change in the media/public image of gay men into what would be cemented into the the 'cuddly, caring, and fanciful' stereotype.
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Nov 5, 2018 02:20
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JediTalentAgent posted:I could have sworn there was either an interview or an article about the various gay characters in media and public perception, specifically about John Inman/Mr. Humphies on AYBS? I watched it as a kid (my parents loved it), but they only ever alluded to Humphries' sexuality, right? Like they hid it the same way they hid Ms. Slocumb's weird double entendres about her cat; not well, but well enough, and they never came right ahead and said it. Also the whole "QUEERS ARE DANGEROUS" thing definitely applied to trans people, especially in the 70's, 80's and 90's. I wish "Destroy All Movies!" wasn't out of print, I'd buy that. It's a book that catalogues punk rock characters and plots in TV and movies in the 70's and 80's (most of which is incredibly broad and dumb). And it includes THAT episode of Quincy.
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Nov 5, 2018 02:28
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Reading Harlan Ellison and I think I found a show that aged poorly from the moment it was conceived.quote:Now maybe I’m suffering from oxygen starvation, maybe I’m
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Nov 5, 2018 03:04
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Nckdictator posted:Reading Harlan Ellison and I think I found a show that aged poorly from the moment it was conceived. I'm sure that's where Ben Shapiro and Laura Loomer steal all their best bits.
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Nov 5, 2018 03:27
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BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:He definitely seems angrier and more condescending in Frasier, which is understandable as he's gone through a terrible divorce in the 2nd, but I think part of that was the tone of the two shows. Cheers was a hang-out filled with people you could see yourself being friends who traded barbs but loved each other deep down. Frasier was an eleven season in-depth examination of the ways and methods by which your dinner party could be ruined by misunderstandings and hijinks. The cheers episode where he discovers Lilith was having an affair is incredibly intense and poignant for a show that was based on a recovering alcoholic and his skunky bar with his skunkier patrons
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Nov 5, 2018 03:33
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RaspberryCommie posted:iirc Andrew Robinson originally played Garak as openly bisexual and was attracted to Bashir but was told to tone it down. Star Trek has a long history of presenting characters who have single-minded obsessions as a way to skimp on actual characterization: Worf is tough, Data wants to be human, Troi (?) likes chocolate ice cream, and Garak needs that doctor dick.
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Nov 5, 2018 03:36
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:Star Trek has a long history of presenting characters who have single-minded obsessions as a way to skimp on actual characterization: Worf is tough, Data wants to be human, Troi (?) likes chocolate ice cream, and Garak needs that doctor dick. The funny thing about Worf "being tough" is that he mostly just looks like a sissy through TNG. Every time that the writers wanted to show how tough the monster of the week was it just kicked the poo poo out of Worf as he was supposed to be the toughest person on the ship by a long shot. Instead he just spent the run of the show getting this face repeatedly bashed in. The monster would kick Worf's rear end then the crew would get together and beat it up.
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Nov 5, 2018 03:52
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ToxicSlurpee posted:The funny thing about Worf "being tough" is that he mostly just looks like a sissy through TNG. Every time that the writers wanted to show how tough the monster of the week was it just kicked the poo poo out of Worf as he was supposed to be the toughest person on the ship by a long shot. Instead he just spent the run of the show getting this face repeatedly bashed in. The monster would kick Worf's rear end then the crew would get together and beat it up. Hey, now, getting the poo poo beat out of him is his love language.
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Nov 5, 2018 03:54
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Hey, now, getting the poo poo beat out of him is his love language. Are you implying Worf was trying to gently caress all the space monsters to death?
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Nov 5, 2018 03:59
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Solice Kirsk posted:Are you implying Worf was trying to gently caress all the space monsters to death? No, he was trying to express his love to his friends.
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Nov 5, 2018 04:01
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Now I'm imagining Worf beating up puppies to show Alexander he loves him.
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Nov 5, 2018 04:08
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Solice Kirsk posted:Now I'm imagining Worf beating up puppies to show Alexander he loves him. *getting beaten up by puppies
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Nov 5, 2018 04:19
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ToxicSlurpee posted:The funny thing about Worf "being tough" is that he mostly just looks like a sissy through TNG. Every time that the writers wanted to show how tough the monster of the week was it just kicked the poo poo out of Worf as he was supposed to be the toughest person on the ship by a long shot. Instead he just spent the run of the show getting this face repeatedly bashed in. The monster would kick Worf's rear end then the crew would get together and beat it up. So Worf was their Wolverine.
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Nov 5, 2018 04:47
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JediTalentAgent posted:I could have sworn there was either an interview or an article about the various gay characters in media and public perception, specifically about John Inman/Mr. Humphies on AYBS? Are You Being Served apparently was not shown in America until 1987, well after a number of other camp gay individuals in media, including, as mentioned above, Paul Lynde. In the UK, camp was already well established, though more serious gay portrayals were few and far between; the 1960 movie Victim was considered quite controversial at the time and Dennis Price brave for agreeing to star in it. Wikipedia has a few lists of American gay characters as portrayed on television. Pre-Stonewall 1970s
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Nov 5, 2018 05:16
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If I remember rightly, John Inman said somewhere in an old interview that Mr Humphries was not gay. He was just an effeminate, highly swishy, well dressed young single man who lived with and had an especially close relationship with his mother, *wink wink* I seem to remember this being a very old interview, so more than likely the reason he denied Mr. Humphries's gayness was because Are You Being Served was a popular show, and as such audiences were prepared to laugh at gay stereotypes, "Haha look at him, he looks and acts like a poof, that's funny", but wouldn't accept an actual queer character, "Eww disgusting, that character is a poof, that's unacceptable." Whilst we are on 70s/80s British TV and implied homosexuality: Am I the only one who thought that Kenny Everett was gay? I know his TV show had lots of beautiful women in skimpy clothes, (and young me thanked him for it), but he always seemed to me to be camper than a row of tents. Although given he was a 'weirdo' on UK TV in the 70s/80s, he is actually more likely to be a kiddie diddler than a homosexual.
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Nov 5, 2018 05:36
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BrigadierSensible posted:If I remember rightly, John Inman said somewhere in an old interview that Mr Humphries was not gay. He was just an effeminate, highly swishy, well dressed young single man who lived with and had an especially close relationship with his mother, *wink wink* From what I read they left his actual sexuality ambiguous and never hinted at it on purpose. Interviews stated that he was just a total mama's boy that never really grew up (he actually lived with his mother during the show) but it was never explicitly stated that he was gay. So they just threw a ton of gay stereotypes on the character then kind of went "yeah well wouldn't you like to know?" whenever the question came up. It sure looked like they wanted a gay character but given the attitudes at the time a legitimately gay character probably wouldn't work.
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Nov 5, 2018 05:39
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I never watched it myself due to it being well before my time, but All in the Family had a really good portrayal and treatment of a lesbian (There is a youtube channel that focuses on gay characters in media who covered it). The idea is that their cousin dies, and when they attend the funeral and the will reading they find out that she has left a very valuable/sentimental teaset to her roommate. Said roommate eventually confides in Edith that she and Edith's cousin loved each other, like Edith and Archie do (that last statement is what gets her to realise what she means, because she is really naive), but when Archie hears about it he plans to blackmail her into giving up the teaset because he's an rear end in a top hat and he wants it (it'll be particularly damaging for her because she is a schoolteacher by trade). Edith comes to her defense, being on her side, and when Archie brings up the religious aspect that it's an abomination before God, Edith's response is "Yes but... he's God. You're not."
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Nov 5, 2018 05:50
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Infamous Sphere used to do some good videos on (among other things) gay people (Infamous Queer)in media and how the individual works are influenced by their eras. She stopped making videos but there's quite a few videos. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWR3D8_NSL7Dl3r62_q3Cog/playlists Sarcopenia has a new favorite as of 07:15 on Nov 5, 2018 |
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Nov 5, 2018 06:19
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The Count of Monte Cristo has a lesbian couple (in hilariously obvious yet barely plausibly deniable fashion) that are... probably shockingly progressive by late 1800s standards. Especially since they gently caress off from all the crazy poo poo with Parisian aristocrats to become musicians in Germany, which seems like the most sensible course of action considering one almost got engaged to her sociopath half-brother.
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Nov 5, 2018 06:23
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