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He never said it was unconnected or unrelated to Undertale and I'm not sure where people are getting that idea? He said it's "a different world, with different characters, that have lived different lives" and that "Undertale's world and ending are the same as you left them". That's a pretty different statement than saying it has nothing to do with Undertale. 
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Nov 6, 2018 07:20
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Average Bear posted:Looks like toby just picked up none other than Todd Howard as creative director. 
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Nov 6, 2018 07:21
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someone awful. posted:He never said it was unconnected or unrelated to Undertale and I'm not sure where people are getting that idea? He said it's "a different world, with different characters, that have lived different lives" and that "Undertale's world and ending are the same as you left them". That's a pretty different statement than saying it has nothing to do with Undertale. Well, it is obviously connected, if nothing else then simply by the virtue of the player having experienced Undertale. That said, to quote his full statement quote:I will say that basically, what you're seeing here is not the world of UNDERTALE. it sounds pretty clear that the world and characters of Undertale are not the world and characters of Deltarune. Trying to argue that Sans or Alphys or any other character is the same one from Undertale and that the game is a sequel or w/e simply goes against what tobyfox himself says, so unless one also wants to argue that he's just lying (why would you ever base a theory on that) then Undertale is Undertale and Deltarune is Deltarune.
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Nov 6, 2018 07:26
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Your Computer posted:Well, it is obviously connected, if nothing else then simply by the virtue of the player having experienced Undertale. That said, to quote his full statement That doesn't preclude (for instance), deltarune sans eventually ending up in undertale
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Nov 6, 2018 07:28
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A big flaming stink posted:So I know it gets bandied around alot but does the game ever actually say "Your choices don't matter"? Because there's a pretty big difference between the implications of 'none of us are in full control of our fate' and 'personal agency is bullshit world is a gently caress.' Near the start after Susie slams Kris against the wall and threatens face eating, she declares that Kris will do all the work on their group project and asks if that's Ok with them. A choice prompt quickly comes up and vanishes with Susie saying that very line.
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Nov 6, 2018 07:33
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Dr Pepper posted:Near the start after Susie slams Kris against the wall and threatens face eating, she declares that Kris will do all the work on their group project and asks if that's Ok with them. A choice prompt quickly comes up and vanishes with Susie saying that very line. yeah but that's a character's opinion, pretty much as non-authoritative as you can get. point is i would be very much "hmm hmm hmm hmm" at the notion that your choices don't actually matter, and certainly not take it as any certainty about how the game will play out. hell i'm rather suspish about toby claiming there won't be multiple endings as things already stand.
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Nov 6, 2018 07:40
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A single ending of Banishing the Angel's Heaven wouldn't preclude variants around it. Already we have chapter 1 being able to be resolved in more than one fashion, but the final scene is the same in the end. It'd depend on what Toby's calling the ending.
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Nov 6, 2018 07:45
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A big flaming stink posted:hell i'm rather suspish about toby claiming there won't be multiple endings as things already stand. If he hadn't put out that post saying how this single chapter took him multiple years to make and he likely won't be done for many many more, I'd be a little more on board with you. I'm sure he wants to release the game before he's 40.
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Nov 6, 2018 07:48
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A big flaming stink posted:yeah but that's a character's opinion, pretty much as non-authoritative as you can get. point is i would be very much "hmm hmm hmm hmm" at the notion that your choices don't actually matter, and certainly not take it as any certainty about how the game will play out. I think it forms a running theme with "you can't decide who you are" and a few other choices getting cut off mid-sentence later, though. And, whether you try to kill stuff or not, nothing actually dies--it has a minor effect on a cutscene later, but otherwise, no matter how hard you try to genocide it ain't happening. The robot you design to kick your own rear end can prompt different funny dialogue, but in the end, it doesn't really matter what you designed. There's a reoccurring illusion of choice that repeatedly gets swept out from under you, deliberately, and the game sort of goes out of its way to make you notice it. Even if it's not really a situation where choice doesn't matter, the narrative definitely goes to efforts to instill that idea. I think that's going to be part of the core concept of the game: not that we don't have a say in matters, but that Kris is being lead to feel that way. Toby's not really going to put out a game whose message is "gently caress choice we are powerless," especially not after Undertale--but I think a game playing with the idea of powerlessness, of making you experience the world through the eyes of someone that doesn't feel significant themselves, is definitely on the table. Characters in the game tell you you can't decide who you are and that choice doesn't matter, the same way Flowey told you it's kill or be killed. You're not intended to believe it but you're intended to feel the pressure.
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Nov 6, 2018 07:54
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Nov 6, 2018 08:24
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This needs to be like 3x slower.
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Nov 6, 2018 08:26
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Is this one of those episodic things? Am I supposed to play it now or wait until it's done?
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Nov 6, 2018 08:35
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It appears to have a chapter structure, but this won't be episodic releases; what's out right now is a demo for the full game to be released ???. The full game will have all its component parts at once.
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Nov 6, 2018 08:37
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Microcline posted:Is this one of those episodic things? Am I supposed to play it now or wait until it's done? play deltarune now, unless you haven't played undertale, in which case play undertale first
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Nov 6, 2018 08:37
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Microcline posted:Is this one of those episodic things? Am I supposed to play it now or wait until it's done? It's more like a demo/teaser but it's a solid two hour experience so play it anyway.
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Nov 6, 2018 08:39
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Microcline posted:Is this one of those episodic things? Am I supposed to play it now or wait until it's done? It's not really episodic. Demo's out now and full game will be released all at once when it is finished.
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Nov 6, 2018 08:40
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:am i the only person who suspects toby fox is completely full of poo poo when he says this is a Totally Separate Thing, I Swear, No Connections To Undertale Here and that this is going to turn out to be a literal sequel in some way or another I don't think he's totally full of poo poo, I think he's trying to dissuade people from discussing Deltarune only through the lens of "How does the plot connect to Undertale? What is the terrible secret of WD Gaster?" rather than attempting to understand and analyze Deltarune as a unique videogame experience with a voice of its own. If I had been working on Mother 3, I would've wanted people to engage with the new story it was telling rather than obsessing about how it fit into a timeline or looking for evidence of Dr. Andonuts. That doesn't mean there wasn't a narrative and thematic relationship between the two games, or that Mother 3 wasn't in some way iterating on and responding to Earthbound (it was). The idea that Deltarune has nothing to do with Undertale and everybody should shut up about Undertale is insane. Even the Deltarune site says it's "intended for people who completed Undertale".
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Nov 6, 2018 08:45
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McFrugal posted:This needs to be like 3x
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Nov 6, 2018 08:58
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So I skipped to the end of this thread. Has anyone suggested that Susie and Kris got high on marker fumes and played D&D while skipping class?
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Nov 6, 2018 09:05
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No. 1 Apartheid Fan posted:I don't think he's totally full of poo poo, I think he's trying to dissuade people from discussing Deltarune only through the lens of "How does the plot connect to Undertale? What is the terrible secret of WD Gaster?" rather than attempting to understand and analyze Deltarune as a unique videogame experience with a voice of its own. If I had been working on Mother 3, I would've wanted people to engage with the new story it was telling rather than obsessing about how it fit into a timeline or looking for evidence of Dr. Andonuts. That doesn't mean there wasn't a narrative and thematic relationship between the two games, or that Mother 3 wasn't in some way iterating on and responding to Earthbound (it was). Yeah, it's this. I've touched on it a bit in this thread already, but-- Deltarune will definitely connect to Undertale. That connection is NOT all there is to the game, though, it's not JUST Undertale 2: The Return Of Sans Undertale. There's obvious links, there's ties and there's references and a lot of the undercurrent of Deltarune is how it compares (or doesn't) to Undertale. ...But. The game has substance of its own. It has its own meat, its own DNA, its own story to tell and there's already (with just one chapter!) so much to read into and interpret that only vaguely bumps butts with its predecessor. The game blatantly draws your eye to the similarities, but past those there's an entirely different thing going on, and I think Toby is trying to stave off that... uh, to coin a phrase, DarkSoulsian issue where each game in the series can only be analyzed through the lens of each other. There's little discussion to be had of Dark Souls 2 or Dark Souls 3, only the mutated amalgam of all three games forcibly fused into one overarching narrative behemoth where everything rhymes and everyone is someone else and you can't parse a theory about any one game without practically memorizing every inch of wiki minutia for all three. Deltarune is its own game, and not just a weird growth attached to Undertale. There is a strong connection between them, but that connection shouldn't in itself define either game.
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Nov 6, 2018 09:09
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No. 1 Apartheid Fan posted:I don't think he's totally full of poo poo, I think he's trying to dissuade people from discussing Deltarune only through the lens of "How does the plot connect to Undertale? What is the terrible secret of WD Gaster?" rather than attempting to understand and analyze Deltarune as a unique videogame experience with a voice of its own. If I had been working on Mother 3, I would've wanted people to engage with the new story it was telling rather than obsessing about how it fit into a timeline or looking for evidence of Dr. Andonuts. That doesn't mean there wasn't a narrative and thematic relationship between the two games, or that Mother 3 wasn't in some way iterating on and responding to Earthbound (it was). It's this. imo Toby is beating around the bush to address that many people on the internet, especially people in certain fandoms, tend to struggle with reading media under a thematic framework as opposed to a literal one. Ultimately whether Deltarune is a prequel or a sequel or an in-between-quel as far as the events of the plot go doesn't really matter, i.e. Sans and Gaster and the timelines will only become relevant if they matter to Deltarune's story. But it certainly is a thematic continuation of Undertale, and it deliberately responds to, critiques, and elaborates on certain aspects of the former. Also see the thread of "your choices don't matter" - instead of obsessing over whether it's a lie and you'll end up being able to get a Super Good Ending or a Deluxe Genocide Ending, imo people should consider the specific ways the idea is introduced and the recurring motif of powerlessness being reflected in the game's design, in order to evaluate what the game is trying to communicate.
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Nov 6, 2018 09:11
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The entire context behind the demo and potentially the full game is that it was summoned by a mysterious Internet Ghost asking players of Undertale to complete a survey for them, and even in game it's presented similarly. It's obviously related in at least a couple of significant ways but I really doubt it's the continued or previous adventures of our Undertale Pals. I guess what i'm saying is it's clear there's a continuity between Deltarune and Undertale but I don't think there is between it's characters other than a few obvious exceptions.
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Nov 6, 2018 09:52
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I'm so glad that we finally have a video game that explores how choices don't matter.
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Nov 6, 2018 09:56
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:I'm so glad that we finally have a video game that explores how choices don't matter. *smirks and elbows the guy sitting next to me* we're all ears, dude
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Nov 6, 2018 10:11
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No. 1 Apartheid Fan posted:*smirks and elbows the guy sitting next to me* we're all ears, dude Oh god do I need to dig out the gif...
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Nov 6, 2018 10:12
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I wonder if to an extent Deltarune is going to involve Toby reclaiming elements from Earthbound Halloween Hack since the hook of that game was the act of attempting to save someone being what matters, even though ultimately that person dies anyway. Gaster also feels heavily like the idea of corrupted Dr. Andonuts reclaimed as an original character, down to looking like Uboa
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Nov 6, 2018 16:05
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:I'm so glad that we finally have a video game that explores how choices don't matter. Todd Howard, you son of a bitch
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Nov 6, 2018 16:40
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quote:- The entire town had to be created correctly on the first try to set up properly for the rest of the game This still sounds weird to me. I'm a game developer, and games don't work that way, unless something else is going on here. There doesn't seem to be any interaction at all between the town scenes and the rest of the game at all. I know the dark world layout is reflected in the empty classroom when you turn the lights on at the end, but has anyone tried comparing the map of the overall town with anything in the dark world? Or maybe it has something to do with where the characters are in town? What else would that line mean?
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Nov 6, 2018 16:52
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eshock posted:This still sounds weird to me. I'm a game developer, and games don't work that way, unless something else is going on here. There doesn't seem to be any interaction at all between the town scenes and the rest of the game at all. there's a number of conspicuously locked doors in important areas throughout town, notably the library, Asgore's misery-den, and the Doom Bunker on the south end there probably is some kind of geographical match between the town/Dark World and those doors/the fountains the only wildcard is Ralsei's kingdom, because it's located behind a door that doesn't look like it belongs anywhere - that purple coloration is really out of place in the rest of the school
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Nov 6, 2018 17:02
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eshock posted:This still sounds weird to me. I'm a game developer, and games don't work that way, unless something else is going on here. There doesn't seem to be any interaction at all between the town scenes and the rest of the game at all. I'm guessing this alludes to the town being used again in later chapters, so the point being made is that even though he's doing just 'chapter one' he had to make a significant amount of the entire world.
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Nov 6, 2018 17:10
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I assume it just means that he needed there to be a library so that when you go talk to Character X in a library in chapter 3, the library doesn't magically appear out of nowhere. He can't edit its geography as he goes, since it's already released to the public, so the town needs to be "complete" in the first chapter with all the town pieces he's going to use in later chapters. There might be some kind of connection to the dark world, but I don't think that's implied by the phrasing there.
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Nov 6, 2018 17:16
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Yeah I just figured he didn't want to retcon the layout of the town partway through development.
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Nov 6, 2018 17:23
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He needed to put the Sans store in there ahead of time as setup for the big payoff later when it transforms back into Grillby's
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Nov 6, 2018 17:27
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So, I have a theory on the fluffy good boy that I don't think has shown up yet in the thread, so I figured I'd drop it in. In the endgame sequence, Toriel notes that Kris, when younger, had a pair of red horns on a headband that have since gone missing. The specific note of the color is striking, since none of the boss monsters have red horns - but Ralsei sure does! It's possible that a younger Kris still struggling to fit in wore the horns to school and got bullied/teased about them, eventually throwing them in the back of a supply closet in a fit of anger and then leaving them there to get buried under various school supply detritus. That gives Ralsei a physical "base" like the various children's toy Darkeners have, a childhood item that has been discarded and left in the dark. If so, Ralsei is less Asriel AU and more Little Kris' Ideal Self - a boss monster instead of a human, polite and sweet and smart instead of weird and offputting and doing all the wrong things, etc. The sibling they wish they could have been to Asriel, the kid they wish they could have been to Toriel and Asgore. Add to that the loneliness of being left behind for years and the instinctive connection to and love for Kris, and you get a lonely fluffy prince. This makes the Kris meta theories potentially even sadder. It's possible this whole thing is meant to be some Labyrinth-ish journey through Kris and Susie's childhoods to teach them about friendship and growing up and so on, and probably Kris should have some feelings about and react to Ralsei turning out to be their childhood OC, but of course Kris just stands there, staring, waiting for your input. You're hijacking their story.
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Nov 6, 2018 17:31
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Aisu posted:So, I have a theory on the fluffy good boy that I don't think has shown up yet in the thread, so I figured I'd drop it in. drat I actually kinda like this one
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Nov 6, 2018 17:41
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The like dooduhdooduhdooduhdooduhdooduh is the best part of the song don't @ me
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Nov 6, 2018 17:50
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My favourite part is the DEEEE-DOOOO-DEE-DOOOOO-DOOOO right afterwards but neither of them would be good without the other so let's be friends about it
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Nov 6, 2018 18:14
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i get very strong shimomura vibes off a lot of the songs in this one, mainly her work in the mario and luigi games
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Nov 6, 2018 18:14
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Lunatic Sledge posted:I'm starting to buy pie theory That was a good catch with the connection Yume Nikki. In Undertale the player character had some physical references to the game (Frisk always having their eyes closed, Chara's Uboa face), so I could easily see Deltarune having the main character have a thematic connection to Yume Nikki as well (that being: Kris is dangerously depressed). Aisu posted:So, I have a theory on the fluffy good boy that I don't think has shown up yet in the thread, so I figured I'd drop it in. Another good catch! poo poo, I didn't even think about the red horns, but that fits so well. If I had to guess, that would meanthe best possible ending for Deltarune would be Kris and Ralsei re-fusing back into one person. Kris doesn't have to just imagine what being a nice person who's capable of happiness and friendship is like, they can just BE that person! Ralsei is them, and they are Ralsei, the power of fluffy kindness was inside of them all along 
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Nov 6, 2018 18:23
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Aisu and ASO, I agree and I hope this is the direction and themes the game takes and builds upon.
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Nov 6, 2018 18:28
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