|
Books get people excited. Rpg books are designed not just to be used but to be draw people in a way that is totally lost as a pdf. Sure, having that available as a bonus is practical, but letting your friend borrow or leaf through a cool book they find on your shelf is thing where as emailing them a 500 page file to get through by Sunday just isn't. Yeah, every player having their own physical copy of the core rule books was and is silly and excessive, but that is a game design problem. It is called pen and paper for a reason. I am not saying you people playing online are wrong to have fun, or wrong to find PDFs practical as you are already staring into a screen, but what you are doing is different enough that I rather think you are being underserved by trying to emulate old school gaming in roll 20 or whatever; and that your perspectives are not really that relevant to the other part of the hobby. thotsky fucked around with this message at 10:18 on Nov 6, 2018 |
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 10:11
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 19:15 |
|
|
Biomute posted:Books get people excited. Rpg books are designed not just to be used but to be draw people in a way that is totally lost as a pdf. Sure, having that available as a bonus is practical, but letting your friend borrow or leaf through a cool book they find on your shelf is thing where as emailing them a 500 page file to get through by Sunday just isn't. Yeah, every player having their own physical copy of the core rule books was and is silly and excessive, but that is a game design problem. How do you feel about e-readers? Is it a different hobby than reading paper books? Should they have separate bestseller lists?
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 10:15
|
|
|
Biomute posted:It is called pen and paper for a reason. I am not saying you people playing online are wrong to have fun, or wrong to find PDFs practical as you are already staring into a screen, but what you are doing is different enough that I rather think you are being underserved by trying to emulate old school gaming in roll 20 or whatever; and that your perspectives are not really that relevant to the other part of the hobby. They're literally the same thing.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 10:18
|
|
|
Publishers like Burning Wheel HQ and Vincent Baker has it right: produce a compelling physical product, that is practical and fulfilling to use and pass around, while providing digital handouts for easy printing and a free pdf of the book for searching or giving to that friend who is keen enough to read it, but too cheap to buy it. In the world of fiction, which is totally different, the eReader can somewhat replace the paperback, but I would not fill a bookshelf with e-readers, nor would I get cookbooks for one. RPGs are a communal activity, where interacting with the props have value, it is closer to board games than it is to fiction, and few would argue all boardgames should just go digital. thotsky fucked around with this message at 10:23 on Nov 6, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 10:20
|
|
|
You also still haven't answered why paying for pdfs is dumb.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 10:23
|
|
|
They have no value, or at the very least they are worth very little, trending towards nothing.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 10:24
|
|
|
Biomute posted:They have no value, or at the very least they are worth very little, trending towards nothing.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 10:27
|
|
|
I think that tacking on an additional cost to the PDF if you're already buying the physical book is not-good, but the labor that went into the creation of the PDF's content should still be compensated, even if the lack of physical production and distribution costs means that the price-point should be (much) lower.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 10:28
|
|
|
Biomute posted:They have no value, or at the very least they are worth very little, trending towards nothing. So your argument is that creators only deserve to get paid for their work when it comes in a costlier, less convenient format. That's really loving stupid.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 10:29
|
|
|
Biomute posted:They have no value, or at the very least they are worth very little, trending towards nothing. So the content inside of that pdf is inherently worthless to you. The labour involved in making that pdf and its contents is inherently worthless to you. This is what you are saying right?
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 10:48
|
|
|
Kai Tave posted:So your argument is that creators only deserve to get paid for their work when it comes in a costlier, less convenient format. That's really loving stupid. The creators only "deserve" to get paid for their work if I want to purchase said work, and I have no desire to buy PDFs, for all the reasons mentioned above. thotsky fucked around with this message at 10:57 on Nov 6, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 10:51
|
|
|
Biomute posted:The creators only "deserve" to get paid for their work if I want to purchase said work, and I have no desire to buy PDFs. Wait so you genuinely believe that if you specifically don't want something, it has no value at all?
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 10:57
|
|
|
Like it's one thing to say "I find books more convenient to flip through at the table" which is fine, it's another thing to try and argue that the worth of RPGs individually and as a hobby is inexorably tied to the state of existing as a physical object. I'm willing to bet a hundred bucks that 90+% of all physical RPG books that people buy wind up doing nothing more than gathering dust on a shelf or stuffed in a closet somewhere, purchased "just to have them" or "well I'll get to play it some day" because nerds are just as prone to rampant consumerism and FOMO as anyone else, and so the actual physical state of being has little to do with how inherently playable the game is. There are compelling arguments in favor of physical media, is the crazy thing. It's totally reasonable to say "I prefer physical stuff because that way I'm sure I own it." But the whole "people who play using pdfs aren't even participating in the same hobby" thing is both bafflingly dumb and smacks of weird gatekeepery, and the idea that pdfs are inherently valueless and that paying for them is dumb is just remarkably clueless in terms of how much it attempts to devalue the work of creators in a hobby where the work of creators is already substantially under-valued in pretty much every respect. If anything publishers should charge more for pdfs than they typically do.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 11:00
|
|
|
Biomute posted:The creators only "deserve" to get paid for their work if I want to purchase said work, and I have no desire to buy PDFs, for all the reasons mentioned above. So all of your TRPGs are in book form, and you never purchase PDFs? Fair enough, if so
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 11:03
|
|
|
*Stares at the metaphorical stack of Shadow of the Demon Lord PDFs I've recently purchased* But it's all worthless, clearly!
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 11:16
|
|
|
Kai Tave posted:I'm willing to bet a hundred bucks that 90+% of all physical RPG books that people buy wind up doing nothing more than gathering dust on a shelf or stuffed in a closet somewhere, purchased "just to have them" or "well I'll get to play it some day" because nerds are just as prone to rampant consumerism and FOMO as anyone else I agree with this 100%, and it is certainly true for me, but as I see it that's just another argument for physical media. As a consumer I want something to put on my shelf, to collect dust but for the few times I pick up a book to leaf through while dreaming of days when me and my friends had time to actually play all this poo poo. nWod Mage is an inscrutable tome and a dreadful game, but at the very least it looks good on a coffee table. Why would I want to settle for some files living in the cloud, ostensibly in my name? gradenko_2000 posted:So all of your TRPGs are in book form, and you never purchase PDFs? This is true. thotsky fucked around with this message at 11:19 on Nov 6, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 11:17
|
|
|
An object that gathers dust clearly is not being used often enough.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 11:18
|
|
|
Biomute posted:I agree with this 100%, and it is certainly true for me, but as I see it that's just another argument for physical media. As a consumer I want something to put on my shelf, to collect dust but for the few times I pick up a book to leaf through while dreaming of days when me and my friends had time to actually play all this poo poo. nWod Mage is an inscrutable tome and a dreadful book, but at the very least it looks good on a coffee table. Why would I want to settle for some files living in the cloud, ostensibly in my name? You personally not wanting to buy something does not mean it has no value, and by continuing to insist that it does is denigrating the work of everyone who created that content and performed the labor necessary for it to exist.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 11:20
|
|
|
Carpets gather dust. If I felt like the added practicality of PDFs made up for the lack of sheer joy owning and interacting with a well made book there would be no quarrel, but clearly I don't, and my guess is that the same is true for a bunch of folks or people would not go to the trouble of producing them anymore. thotsky fucked around with this message at 11:33 on Nov 6, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 11:25
|
|
|
GimpInBlack posted:You personally not wanting to buy something does not mean it has no value, and by continuing to insist that it does is denigrating the work of everyone who created that content and performed the labor necessary for it to exist. You know, it just struck me that if the sole arbiter of if something has value is if I want to buy it, then Biomute's life has no value.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 11:31
|
|
|
Biomute posted:I agree with this 100%, and it is certainly true for me, but as I see it that's just another argument for physical media. As a consumer I want something to put on my shelf, to collect dust but for the few times I pick up a book to leaf through while dreaming of days when me and my friends had time to actually play all this poo poo. nWod Mage is an inscrutable tome and a dreadful game, but at the very least it looks good on a coffee table. Why would I want to settle for some files living in the cloud, ostensibly in my name? Then why buy RPGs in the first place? Just buy a coffee table book, the entire point of those is to sit around and look pretty. Your argument is all over the place, first you want to say that pdfs have no inherent value worth paying for and aren't even part of the same hobby, now you're saying that actually the physical games you buy mostly wind up going unused which suggests that they don't really have a lot of value either except that of conspicuous consumption. If you're not actually playing the game owning a physical copy doesn't somehow make it more meaningful or valuable, it's like fetishizing a set of stereo instructions when you don't listen to music. Biomute posted:Carpets gather dust. Carpets are fuckin garbage and vastly inferior to other available options so I'm not sure this is a great argument either.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 11:33
|
|
|
GimpInBlack posted:continuing to insist that it does is denigrating the work of everyone who created that content and performed the labor necessary for it to exist. Well, I do think it does. It cheapens the work aesthetically, it cheapens it by reducing the labor involved, and clearly it cheapens it in the minds of the consumers and possibly even the creators if we look at the 7th Sea kickstarter fallout that kickstarted this whole discussion.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 11:34
|
|
|
Biomute posted:Well, I do think it does. It cheapens the work aesthetically, it cheapens it by reducing the labor involved, and clearly it cheapens it in the minds of the consumers and possibly even the creators if we look at the 7th Sea kickstarter fallout that kickstarted this whole discussion. Because the explanation for this couldn't possibly just be that maybe John Wick is as bad at managing his business affairs as he is at writing elfgames.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 11:35
|
|
|
Biomute posted:Well, I do think it does. It cheapens the work aesthetically, it cheapens it by reducing the labor involved, and clearly it cheapens it in the minds of the consumers and possibly even the creators if we look at the 7th Sea kickstarter fallout that kickstarted this whole discussion. The 7th Sea Kickstarter fallout happened because they gave away the PDFs effectively for free. Y'know, the exact loving thing you're saying should happen.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 11:39
|
|
|
Biomute posted:Well, I do think it does. It cheapens the work aesthetically, it cheapens it by reducing the labor involved, and clearly it cheapens it in the minds of the consumers and possibly even the creators if we look at the 7th Sea kickstarter fallout that kickstarted this whole discussion. I was going to give you the benefit of the doubt, but to assert that the mere act of engaging in the labor involved to create a PDF is itself a problem is completely disagreeable to me That's still labor, and it should still be compensated, and you probably shouldn't wonder why you're getting so much pushback on the idea that your conception of "PDFs have no value"
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 11:41
|
|
|
Also isn't it relatively straight forward to release a PDF these days since you're already doing digital layout? I know there are file size and performance optimizations to be done for pdf release but when you're already working digitally it's not as if you have to have two completely different production processes.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 11:44
|
|
|
Kai Tave posted:Then why buy RPGs in the first place? Just buy a coffee table book, the entire point of those is to sit around and look pretty. If you're not actually playing the game owning a physical copy doesn't somehow make it more meaningful or valuable, it's like fetishizing a set of stereo instructions when you don't listen to music. Yet people do this all the time. They buy guitars they will never really play, or action figures that will never leave their boxes. Hell, even people who do play Call of Cthulhu have no "good" reason to pick up every nearly identical edition, yet they do. I might play my latest purchase, but even if I don't just owning it, reading it, feeling good about supporting a product I believe in and enjoying having it on my shelf gives it far more worth than some data in a server park somewhere.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 11:46
|
|
|
My gaming group doesn't play anything other than D&D 3.0 and we already own the books therefore all other roleplaying game products are fundamentally worthless. Also my mum lets me live in her basement & I don't see why anyone even spends money on houses???
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 11:48
|
|
|
Biomute posted:Yet people do this all the time. They buy guitars they will never really play, or action figures that will never leave their boxes. Hell, even people who do play Call of Cthulhu have no "good" reason to pick up every nearly identical edition, yet they do. Yeah and guess what, all of this is real dumb too.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 11:48
|
|
|
GimpInBlack posted:The 7th Sea Kickstarter fallout happened because they gave away the PDFs effectively for free. Y'know, the exact loving thing you're saying should happen. Yeah, it's almost like they should have tied each basically worthless yet very practical PDF to some sort of physical representation of labor, like a book.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 11:56
|
|
|
Biomute posted:Yeah, it's almost like they should have tied each basically worthless yet very practical PDF to some sort of physical representation of labor, like a book. How do you feel about MP3 or FLAC as opposed to CDs?
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 11:58
|
|
|
dwarf74 posted:I think it'd be doing better if the game was actually any good. Yeah, that's the bitch. Trying to sell people on playing 7th Sea 2e has been pulling teeth for me, because they get hype for the setting but the mechanics are just flatly bad. How do you gently caress up the swashbuckling in your swashbuckling pirates game?
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 11:58
|
|
|
spectralent posted:Do people not have tablets or something? Tablets are expensive. Not everyone has that kind of money to spend on luxuries.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 11:59
|
|
|
AlphaDog posted:How do you feel about MP3 or FLAC as opposed to CDs? If I was into collecting music I would probably get LP's, but I am not. I don't really think it is all that analogous though, most people who like music just like listening to the music. There are exceptions of course. Books are more tangible. Not all people who like books like audio books, I would guess far less than half do. Also, there were a lot of people upset when e-readers became a thing, and still there are lots of people who feels like it is not the same. I argue that RPGs are even more of an interactive physical object than books of fiction. thotsky fucked around with this message at 12:11 on Nov 6, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 12:03
|
|
|
Meinberg posted:So, this has been rattling around in my head for a while, and I decided to talk about it here. LARP has a pretty reputation, and for fairly good reasons, in the USA. It's widely associated with the boffer community of dorks in bad costumes yelling numbers at each other while they hit at each other with padded sticks and packets full of bird seed. From an outside perspective (and often an inside one), it seems very silly. I would go to a boffer LARP any day and deal with their silly resolution system before I would ever in my life touch a Vampire LARP again. Jesus gently caress I have never encountered a single thing in my life more toxic than White Wolf LARPs. Like 'following the GM into the shitter to talk about your character' levels of obsession, on top of the endemic sexual harassment if not assault of nigh every female player and a fair number of dudes as well. It'd be even worse these days then ~15 years ago when I quit, because NuWW is run by wanna-be fascists and pushes that viewpoint in their works, so I'd expect a lot of alt-right wastes of flesh playing the 'I'm not -really- a monster, just playing one in this game' poo poo to spout off unironic hate. Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 12:07 on Nov 6, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 12:03
|
|
|
Loomer posted:Also isn't it relatively straight forward to release a PDF these days since you're already doing digital layout? I know there are file size and performance optimizations to be done for pdf release but when you're already working digitally it's not as if you have to have two completely different production processes. But the real answer is that laying out a usable and readable PDF vs a usable and readable physical product is 95% the same work, and the extra overhead for what you should do for PDF and what you should do for print are essentially equal at this point. No one charges less for one or the other - a PDF only layout has been historically cheaper mostly because it used to take extra time to do a physical one but that’s largely fallen away. There is some marginal difference in that PDFs will more often use simpler (and thus cheaper) layouts, but that’s a bit of a chicken and egg thing. The extra cost for physical products is entirely in overhead for production, inventory, and so forth. Even with print on demand. Physical products cost more because you’re paying additional people for labor and materials, not because the people who wrote or laid out the book are paid more. In fact the margins are usually better for digital even when it is marked down.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 12:11
|
|
|
Biomute posted:Yeah, it's almost like they should have tied each basically worthless yet very practical PDF to some sort of physical representation of labor, like a book. okay I don't know how else to tell you this, but money is voucher for labor
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 12:14
|
|
|
like as a slightly more serious response, it's entirely reasonable to say "I don't gain much utility from PDF versions of RPGs and they don't enhance my life, I'm not willing to spend [much/any] money on them because the benefits they provide don't apply to me, unlike physical RPG books" just like it's fine for non-musicians to not buy guitars (or to buy guitars if they enjoy owning guitars that they can't play!) but you're saying "RPG PDFs aren't worth any money at all, if you're playing a tabletop RPG with rules from a PDF rather than from a physical book, you're not actually even playing a real RPG and if you thought you were then I guess you got scammed?" like seriously: Biomute posted:It is called pen and paper for a reason. I am not saying you people playing online are wrong to have fun, or wrong to find PDFs practical as you are already staring into a screen, but what you are doing is different enough that I rather think you are being underserved by trying to emulate old school gaming in roll 20 or whatever; and that your perspectives are not really that relevant to the other part of the hobby. Biomute posted:In the world of fiction, which is totally different, the eReader can somewhat replace the paperback, but I would not fill a bookshelf with e-readers, nor would I get cookbooks for one. RPGs are a communal activity, where interacting with the props have value, it is closer to board games than it is to fiction, and few would argue all boardgames should just go digital. so, like, when me and my friends played a session of 13th Age the other day and we never needed to look up the rules that was regular gaming, but the session before that when the GM checked whether saving throws happen at the start or end of your turn and he looked it up on his phone rather than getting the book out of his bag suddenly the activity lost its communal nature and no longer counted as real gaming? And poo poo, when we played Microscope the GM just explained how to play, it's a pretty simple game so we picked it up pretty quick. I thought it was fun but what if when he read the rulebook the day before to learn the game he read a PDF version??? If he printed it out first does it count or is the digital taint transitive? does it only count if he prints it and binds it? ... Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I assume you don't actually hold such a pointlessly smug, gatekeeper-y, holier-than-thou position? I mean, feel free to correct me but it seems like you probably meant to just say "hey I find owning physical books pretty cool but PDFs kind of annoying so I prefer the former?" But I feel like you should know that the reason you're getting dogpiled is that this sure is how you're coming off!
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 12:18
|
|
|
Biomute posted:They have no value, or at the very least they are worth very little, trending towards nothing. for those of us who play online pdfs are far more useful also the value of a product is determined by the labor that was used to produce it, and writing an entire rpg takes a shitload of labor, no matter what form it takes
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 12:32
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 19:15 |
|
|
I actually bought some second hand refurb lovely tablets and use those with my library of pdfs to hand around the table. Ran me maybe 100AU in total, and it works out great. Also has the convenience of every player having every bookwe have at once, rather than slow down with people waiting turns for the magic item tables or spell lists.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 12:51
|
|