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Caphi posted:Didn't they blow up the Alpha 3 gate in MD? where could the OG Franchise even go after Alpha 3's plot is done?
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Nov 7, 2018 18:20
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Race Realists posted:where could the OG Franchise even go after Alpha 3's plot is done? The Z Spheres? With GIlliam being revealed as a Sphere Holder? Ingram's Counter-Attack?
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Nov 7, 2018 18:25
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maybe this time the z plot wont be a massive disappointment
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Nov 7, 2018 18:43
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I still kinda hope the 'Z plot' is just the actual Z characters showing up and helping out with other series plot.
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Nov 7, 2018 18:45
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You know I wouldn't mind having some kind of big OGs-style remake/remaster on modern platforms, especially if they're going to go forward with backwards compatibility in future console iterations like Xbox (and inevitably when PlayStation is forced to) is. I find it ridiculous to try and get into OG when the main story is now spread out across three different generations of PlayStation (PS2: OGs, PS3: OG 2nd + Dark Prison, PS4: Moon Dwellers) not even counting these other Nintendo-era and PS2 era SRW main games you're all talking about that crossover with them. With my only prior experience in OG being the GBA games I found Moon Dwellers to be a nightmare of constantly hitting the archive button to figure out what the hell was going on, and anyone who played the SEA version of Moon Dwellers knows how that translation turned out.
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Nov 7, 2018 18:55
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Just give me the XN-Geist.
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Nov 7, 2018 19:15
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Between the Zs, L, Beowulf hanging around in the Shadow Mirrors' universe and anything they might want to do with the Endless Frontier cast now some of them have been in OG proper, there's plenty of room for a dimension-crossing story. Neo's magical angle could connect into bringing back more Masoukishin characters, plus Cybuster being powered by humanity's negative emotions now (unless the SEA translation got it confusingly wrong?) could lead into a new plot there, possibly with Shurouga. The next game could introduce the Glory Stars or the Firebugs to tease Z stuff, and depending on how rights fall they might be able to tease out things from Real Robot Battle Line or the ACE series. Honestly, replaying 2nd OG has made me realise that they could do basically anything with the series and I'd be up for it; SRW OG was my gateway to being seriously into robot anime so I'll always get excited over a new one. 1st Stage Midboss fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Nov 7, 2018 |
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Nov 7, 2018 19:22
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Just have an OG series focused on whatever the hell is happening in the colonies. No one from the previous OG series show up, except Masaki for some reason. It's OK, though, he's not sure why he's there either.
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Nov 7, 2018 19:30
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Alpha 3 and W have some of my favorite originals so I am very excited for whenever SRW OG: Subtitle is released.
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Nov 7, 2018 19:42
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Sadly, if they bring up the colonies again it'll probably involve a rehash of Gundam SEED (It was in both Alpha 3 and W). On the other hand, there is still a lot they could do. * Throw in the rest of the 4/F protagonists as colony-dwellers. * Not- * Irui shows up again... and is immediately hunted down by the colonies in return for Gan Eden trying to blow them all up back in OG2nd.
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Nov 7, 2018 19:51
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To be honest, after MD I kind of dread originals I really like getting into OG.
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Nov 7, 2018 20:14
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I think all of the Z Spheres in OG could be really cool if they get the whole cast together in one go.
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Nov 7, 2018 20:36
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I would love another OG on the scale of OG1. I've been thinking a lot about this, and in my view, OG1 was the strongest in terms of cohesion and general themes. I also have mixed feelings on the way the games showcase Gespensts in general, as part of this. OG1's Divine Wars story effectively demonstrated through its robot roster a story of a world government in crisis because its emphasis on conventional ground forces and jets with only a tiny handful of ground PTs (due to politics) left it caught flat-footed when the Divine Crusaders rose up with flying AMs. Between that and the revolt of the Federation's entire military presence in space, you had heroes caught on a losing side and struggling. The only reason they won was because they were supposed to win, and even the protagonists felt ultimately empty and unsatisfied with the result because of how contrived and forced the whole scenario was. The nature of it all was not lost on them. A lot of the strength of this narrative comes from the limited cast size and robot roster. There were two separate handfuls of troops centered around two boats, and all of those characters, not just a few, had ample time to shine and plenty of characterization built up over many stages. Then OG2 happened, and they started having lots of things going on and introduced a ton of alien tech, parallel universe stuff, and magical ancient superweapons. All of this stayed in, or got let go for a while and brought back in later (Mekibos, who deserves his own contextual entry). OGG introduced a lot of stuff and let go of nearly all of it at the end, and people still complain about missing the Shura (who, to be fair, are good). At the same time, they did not let go of ALL of it, and the Tsentr Project and Jetzt stuff carried on into OG II, where they introduced even more things that were supposed to be a grand culmination of lots of plots, like Ing. But then they didn't let go of much of it in Moon Dwellers. OG's ultimate failing as a larger series is its chronic refusal to let anything go once it's there, or to put it another way, its ultimate inability to let anything go without alienating some part of its fanbase. The sixth OG game will have five games' worth of baggage, plus two more if you count Endless Frontier. Policenaut hits the nail on the head when he talks about constantly tripping over terms and references to previous properties. That, and it's just harder to give people lots of characterization the larger your cast size is—Some people won't get screentime, and even for those that do, you have 8 or 9 people participating in every mess hall conversation or briefing, turning it into a giant muddled mess that's hard to follow. In a word, it's cluttered. Paradoxically, Gespensts have gotten better for the same reason that the games have gotten more clunky. In OG1, Gespensts were "the thing that you're stuck with", a chore to use with few decent options unless you felt like upgrading your third M950 machine gun. In OG2, they were "the holdover from OG1 that only gets used because the MP Huckebein Mk. II is even worse". They were saved from being bottom of the barrel only by virtue of the MP Huckebein Mk. II existing. But OG Gaiden started this upward trend of making Gespenst variants with equippable module kits with rad as hell attacks, and OG II and Moon Dwellers continued the trend with silly additions like the Gespenst Haken. The more extra bullshit that gets tagged on, the more fun they are to use, and the more I look forward to getting one to play around with. Hokuto fucked around with this message at 21:07 on Nov 7, 2018 |
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Nov 7, 2018 21:00
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In addition to all that, OG1 had the confidence to impose its own identity on its "inclusions." Part of that was pure necessity from most of the Alpha Numbers needing entirely new characters, but then you had stuff like Kyosuke piloting the Wildraubtier before the Alteisen got rolled in and Elzam being in a succession of Trombe Customs. Afterwards OG becomes more of a slave to its units, by jamming their plots in forcefully if not, more commonly, by piling even more continuity on them (see: the Einst, the Fury) to justify them regardless of what needs to have happened in the setting to make it work - and then, exactly as Hokuto says, just leaving them lying around after they're done. At least they're getting good mileage out of the Time Flow Engines?
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Nov 7, 2018 21:18
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As someone whose first OGs was Moon Dwellers it really stuck out that like 80% of the characters don't matter at all and have nothing to do. My OG hope is that after Alpha 3 they just finish up with this shared OG universe and then start again with a new OGs based on Z or something so they can get rid of most of the cast. Though like any SRW game they could have a few series show up again but like post-story or done in a slightly different way, with new secrets to recruit like I dunno Lee, or have Ring actually do something.
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Nov 7, 2018 21:19
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It's a thorny and difficult issue because everyone has different likes and dislikes, so "letting things go" involves making choices where you piss superfans off in a franchise sustained and fueled entirely by superfans in a way that many other franchies simply aren't. SRW and OG are both basically games about putting all your favorite action figures in a pile and knocking them together while making explosion noises with your mouth, and it feels pretty bad when your favorite action figures get lost. There's no real way to determine who should get cut or who should get kept besides dartboarding it or just following raw popularity charts. You could go "well, you can retire people whose stories are finished", but the easy reply to that is "why can't they be part of a new story?", like they've done repeatedly with Kyosuke(by tying him to things like Real Robot Regiment) and Sanger(by having him apparently be the most popular person in the franchise for random villains to form a rivalry with). Let's use me as an example. I don't really like Ibis very much. I find her character arc to be relatively boring, her robot designs don't really do anything for me, and I was annoyed that they decided to drag her paper-thin backstory across four goddamn games while stuff I found cooler/more interesting(such as the Shura!) are packed into a tiny segment of a short game. Her story is done. Should they cut her now? I'd say yes, she can go off and explore space and make room for someone else, but a lot of people who really like Ibis would go "gently caress no we spent four games getting here let me use the cool robot for a while and let me see how the Ibis/Sleigh/Tsugumi team reacts to things as a unit now that they're not shooting each other", and that opinion is just as valid as my opinion that she can go ahead and leave. Another example is the R cast. I'm a rabid fanboy of the R Originals - SRW R was the first SRW I ever played to completion, so it has a special place in my heart. Them being shuffled off to OGG where they crammed their entire plot into less than a third of the game and their final boss literally being a mid-stage speed bump in the middle of someone else's stage was loving horrible, and then they were about to get shitcanned from the games after that mess because their story was done. That drove me loving crazy, and apparently it drove some other people crazy too, since the Excellence Repair was slapped together to keep them at least in the cast. Now, as of Moon Dwellers, they're back with cool semi-original designs and have a vitally important part in the story(Time Engines being able to counteract the Fury Time Stop Fuckery) that is a creative use of their particular Magical Plot McGuffin that interacts with the world in an interesting way that wouldn't have been possible if they had gotten shuffled off immediately. I just don't really see an easy solution to the ever-bloating cast problem short of carving the cast down to only the "foundational" members like Kyosuke/Excellen, the SRX Team, Sanger/Elzam, etc. which also makes things a lot more boring and formulaic.
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Nov 7, 2018 21:24
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I’d like a SRW OG with no baggage. 100% new original characters, mecha and plot. Sort of like the Masou Kishin stuff only not mostly crappy and characters with more than one trait. I’d also like a pony. Edit: Also complete story in one game not split into unsatisfying chunks tia.
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Nov 7, 2018 21:29
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I want Lynn/Ring/Rin to stop doing Excel spreadsheets and approving timecards for Mao Industries and go fight again. 
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Nov 7, 2018 21:29
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Kanos posted:SRW and OG are both basically games about putting all your favorite action figures in a pile and knocking them together while making explosion noises with your mouth So I guess this is still an opinion in a world where mainline SRW is getting official, high-quality translations (to say nothing of all the fan work). Personally I would very much rather my favorite characters not be in the game if they are going to be handled badly in the story. If anything I don't really mind either way about Katina and Russel being in OG, while I dread the day Kazuma or Crowe gets wheeled out. e: I mean, if they want to make a game where you can just throw Aussenseiter at stuff and watch the pretty colors, they can, but they don't have to go to all the trouble to also write a Federation that gasses an asteroid colony and not give Ratsel any lines about it, is what I'm saying like I used to be extremely Team Banjou and gently caress Yeah Daitarn until he was pointless for six games in a row and especially Z3, now I'm just waiting for him to get a goddamn break and wish it had happened a few years ago before I was sick of him. OG is that but 80% of the cast and it's not as though it's made it a good environment for newcomers, either. Caphi fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Nov 7, 2018 |
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Nov 7, 2018 21:30
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Caphi posted:e: I mean, if they want to make a game where you can just throw Aussenseiter at stuff and watch the pretty colors, they can, but they don't have to go to all the trouble to also write a Federation that gasses an asteroid colony and not give Ratsel any lines about it, is what I'm saying I'm with you on this. There's a lot of stuff that could and should be done with characters but can't because the roster is so bloated that if you started doing that, the logical consequences would lead you to a far messier and more complicated place than you can afford as a game maker on a deadline.
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Nov 7, 2018 23:23
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I remember in the past there being some interview snippet where they said the Z originals wouldn't be coming to the current OG setting. Frankly I wouldn't mind if they cut off the current OG world after Alpha 3/W and start up again with something wildly different as far an OG series, even if they use the OCs from later games.
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Nov 8, 2018 00:02
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Kanos posted:It's a thorny and difficult issue because everyone has different likes and dislikes, so "letting things go" involves making choices where you piss superfans off in a franchise sustained and fueled entirely by superfans in a way that many other franchies simply aren't. SRW and OG are both basically games about putting all your favorite action figures in a pile and knocking them together while making explosion noises with your mouth, and it feels pretty bad when your favorite action figures get lost. There's no real way to determine who should get cut or who should get kept besides dartboarding it or just following raw popularity charts. You could go "well, you can retire people whose stories are finished", but the easy reply to that is "why can't they be part of a new story?", like they've done repeatedly with Kyosuke(by tying him to things like Real Robot Regiment) and Sanger(by having him apparently be the most popular person in the franchise for random villains to form a rivalry with). I realized this was true back when Amara Barton showed up in Masoukishin. You know that girl who blew up the Huckebeins and kinda sorta antagonized Ing before dying the ignoble death of a henchperson who outlived their usefulness? Yeah, we gotta bring her back. There's a saying in the comicbook industry: Every character is somebody's favorite.
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Nov 8, 2018 00:08
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Hunter Noventa posted:I remember in the past there being some interview snippet where they said the Z originals wouldn't be coming to the current OG setting. Frankly I wouldn't mind if they cut off the current OG world after Alpha 3/W and start up again with something wildly different as far an OG series, even if they use the OCs from later games. Pretty much every variation of the name OG is already taken though so maybe call it something else.
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Nov 8, 2018 00:13
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Caphi posted:So I guess this is still an opinion in a world where mainline SRW is getting official, high-quality translations (to say nothing of all the fan work). Personally I would very much rather my favorite characters not be in the game if they are going to be handled badly in the story. If anything I don't really mind either way about Katina and Russel being in OG, while I dread the day Kazuma or Crowe gets wheeled out. It's not really an opinion, though. SRW games are at their foundational heart and soul about mashing together existing properties and letting you use your favorites. Literally the very first thing people look up with bated breath when a new SRW is announced is a series list, and literally the second thing anyone wants to see are how cool the new animations are on their favorite Gundam's beam rifle or their favorite super robot's finisher. There are an absolutely insane amount of essays and fanfiction dedicated to ~My Dream SRW Lineup~ simply because the core lure of the franchise is your favorite stuff crossing over with your other favorite stuff. How much complaining have people done about "gently caress, why won't they put xxx in SRW????" If the "banging action figures together" effect wasn't so strong, they wouldn't be making games involving existing licensing, and the franchise wouldn't have had a western fanbase at all before we started to get translations in the last couple of years. The problem you're talking about with Banjo is less that he's being written poorly - he actually gets more unique crossover moments than the majority of the cast and often plays into other series' plotlines in ways that most characters do not - and more overexposure, which sometimes happens in SRW - see everyone souring on Macross Frontier really harshly after they went through that miserable death slog of doing the Frontier plot for like 5 games in a row. HitTheTargets posted:I realized this was true back when Amara Barton showed up in Masoukishin. You know that girl who blew up the Huckebeins and kinda sorta antagonized Ing before dying the ignoble death of a henchperson who outlived their usefulness? Yeah, we gotta bring her back. Yeah this is a problem that is hard to get away from, doubly so in a franchise so intimately tied to the concept of telling stories with established fan-favorite characters. I'm positive there was some guy at Banpresto who was like "huh, we made this character and gave her her own robot and theme and backstory but we didn't really have enough time to go into it, why don't we bring her back?"
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Nov 8, 2018 00:42
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Samurai Sanders posted:Pretty much every variation of the name OG is already taken though so maybe call it something else. SRW: TNG
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Nov 8, 2018 00:56
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I think the best solution is to put OG to bed after a suitable conclusion and start over fresh with new characters, new robots, and new stories.
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Nov 8, 2018 00:58
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Ending this branch of OG with a game that does Alpha 3 and W and then starting a new series focused on the later originals seems like the best option, yeah. The V cast could be fun in a game where they aren't playing second fiddle to Yamato.
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Nov 8, 2018 01:07
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Schwarzwald posted:SRW: TNG Seriously though, maybe Original and then some other word, like Venerations.
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Nov 8, 2018 01:10
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Kanos posted:It's a thorny and difficult issue because everyone has different likes and dislikes, so "letting things go" involves making choices where you piss superfans off in a franchise sustained and fueled entirely by superfans in a way that many other franchies simply aren't. SRW and OG are both basically games about putting all your favorite action figures in a pile and knocking them together while making explosion noises with your mouth, and it feels pretty bad when your favorite action figures get lost. There's no real way to determine who should get cut or who should get kept besides dartboarding it or just following raw popularity charts. You could go "well, you can retire people whose stories are finished", but the easy reply to that is "why can't they be part of a new story?", like they've done repeatedly with Kyosuke(by tying him to things like Real Robot Regiment) and Sanger(by having him apparently be the most popular person in the franchise for random villains to form a rivalry with). Well, you can always write the cast to the story to an extent. Pick a handful of focus characters (probably popular ones), figure out a story for the game that would have them in the spotlight, and then include and exclude other characters and ideas based around how well they fit the narrative. Of course, the problem is that if you get people used to everything, they're less likely to go "Cool, a few of my favorites got a lot of screentime and good moments. Wonder who's going to get the spotlight next time?" and more likely to complain about who got left out. Which is why starting a new OG line is probably for the best.
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Nov 8, 2018 01:17
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Kanos posted:It's not really an opinion, though. SRW games are at their foundational heart and soul about mashing together existing properties and letting you use your favorites. Literally the very first thing people look up with bated breath when a new SRW is announced is a series list, and literally the second thing anyone wants to see are how cool the new animations are on their favorite Gundam's beam rifle or their favorite super robot's finisher. There are an absolutely insane amount of essays and fanfiction dedicated to ~My Dream SRW Lineup~ simply because the core lure of the franchise is your favorite stuff crossing over with your other favorite stuff. How much complaining have people done about "gently caress, why won't they put xxx in SRW????" If the "banging action figures together" effect wasn't so strong, they wouldn't be making games involving existing licensing, and the franchise wouldn't have had a western fanbase at all before we started to get translations in the last couple of years. Except they made the "banging action figures together" game. No one liked Super Robot Gakuen and I think X-Ω is doing okay but not serious gacha numbers. People don't just want their fave to exist and look nice, they want it to do something interesting, and with the state of modern SRW, fun unique gameplay is out, so that just leaves story. It is true that removing characters makes people sad but that has more to do with removing the hope that they'll ever do anything interesting, which I don't really have for OG since it took barely half a release for the D people to fall by the wayside. You sound like you're aware of that and you're just using hot-takey phrasing. I guess either way, we can agree that OG is past its expiration date and needs to reset or retire.
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Nov 8, 2018 01:59
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Frankly Z presents the perfect opportunity to start fresh with new characters and just throw in some dimension shenanigans for a handful of old favorites to make an appearance.
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Nov 8, 2018 02:01
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KoB posted:Frankly Z presents the perfect opportunity to start fresh with new characters and just throw in some dimension shenanigans for a handful of old favorites to make an appearance. Oh god please no. I'd be fine if they did Z1 and 2 but the OG characters in Z3 were the worst parts in that game.
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Nov 8, 2018 02:05
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Please no, "start a new dimension and throw in some old favorites" is already what made the Z sequels so sequelitic.
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Nov 8, 2018 02:06
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I'm still annoyed OG Kouji and original anime Getter team didn't meet up with Shin Kouji and Armageddon Getter team. Why has this not happened yet? It seems obvious.
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Nov 8, 2018 02:12
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Caphi posted:Except they made the "banging action figures together" game. No one liked Super Robot Gakuen and I think X-Ω is doing okay but not serious gacha numbers. People don't just want their fave to exist and look nice, they want it to do something interesting, and with the state of modern SRW, fun unique gameplay is out, so that just leaves story. It is true that removing characters makes people sad but that has more to do with removing the hope that they'll ever do anything interesting, which I don't really have for OG since it took barely half a release for the D people to fall by the wayside. Every single last one of these games is a banging action figures together game. One of the most popular and memorable plot beats in V is "Mazinger ZERO is a super powerful godlike being who trapped Koji but wait, what's this, Shinji is going to fight it with the Awakened Eva-01! how awesome!" when that's almost literally what two kids in a sandbox would come up with. Most SRW storytelling, even the good stuff, is basically just "what if [event from anime] happened, except [character(s) from other anime] happened to be there to fight?" There's some background stuff going on sometimes like Relena forming the Peace Princess Squadron in some games, but the fundamental reality of the games is "Neo Zeon is doing bad Neo Zeon things except Wataru is there to stop them this time". I think pretending that the series is heavily carried by its writing and not dumb spectacle is a little disingenuous. The series had a pretty solid cult following in the west long before this blessed period where we're actually getting solid translations of these games finally, and the vast majority of them didn't speak Japanese and the ones who cared about the story either had to get it from MNeidengard FAQs or hearing it secondhand from friends who maybe understood some Japanese or had happened to have watched a couple of the series subbed. I do agree that I think OG has basically accumulated too much cruft at this point. You can't really cut a lot of it without pissing people off, but if you add much more it's going to be hard to even fit people in for token dialogue appearances. Kanos fucked around with this message at 02:15 on Nov 8, 2018 |
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Nov 8, 2018 02:13
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Maybe I'm the weird one because I don't remember that in V at all, the part of ZERO I remember in V is the God of Mazingers calling Kouji up and going "hey so I'm going to give you ZERO just 'cause I want to see what will happen, don't disappoint me" (which I'm pretty sure didn't happen in the ZERO manga). I actually plain forgot EVA was in V despite them defining an entire Earth. What I remember from V is Chitose and Nine growing up together, a lot of fixing of PoD Akito, and being the first outing meeting Mightgaine and Cross Ange.
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Nov 8, 2018 02:29
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Caphi posted:Maybe I'm the weird one because I don't remember that in V at all, the part of ZERO I remember in V is the God of Mazingers calling Kouji up and going "hey so I'm going to give you ZERO just 'cause I want to see what will happen, don't disappoint me" (which I'm pretty sure didn't happen in the ZERO manga). I actually plain forgot EVA was in V despite them defining an entire Earth. What I remember from V is Chitose and Nine growing up together, a lot of fixing of PoD Akito, and being the first outing meeting Mightgaine and Cross Ange. It is kind of strange to care about the Mazinger plot in V and not remember the climactic stage where Koji breaks free of the ZERO and takes control of it for the first time, which is what eventually leads to the moment you remember. That's also the stage where Tetsuya reveals their OG Mazinger plot of "we built the Mazin Emperor to fight evil Mazingers", too.
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Nov 8, 2018 02:41
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Sounds like it was a big development moment for Kouji and Shinji that I would not have registered as just "EVA fights Mazinger wow"! Too much time is spent on SRW's story, both writing it and reading it, to reduce it to just spectacle. I'm not saying it's classic lit or anything but it's a huge part of the product.
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Nov 8, 2018 02:45
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You know, Kanos, for a guy contending the games are essentially plotless, you know your poo poo.
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Nov 8, 2018 02:47
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I’m just curious what the alternative is? What, in your opinion, would make SRW not just action figures banging together?
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Nov 8, 2018 02:50
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