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Harder to load the pylon, can't carry as much weight, more drag if they're on the wing, might potentially block the pilot's view. Basically they're a compromise. You get to carry two heaters (on the Jaguar) or a couple extra ferry tanks (on the Lightning) without using the stronger pylons for them, in exchange for a degradation in aerodynamics. IIRC the Jaguar also had the top pylons mounted where the wing fences were, so when the missile rails were removed it was basically just a regular wing fence. (and also IIRC, the French never actually fitted their Jaguars with the top pylons)
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Nov 8, 2018 01:54
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C.M. Kruger posted:Basically they're a compromise. You get to carry two heaters (on the Jaguar) or a couple extra ferry tanks (on the Lightning) without using the stronger pylons for them, in exchange for a degradation in aerodynamics. IIRC the Jaguar also had the top pylons mounted where the wing fences were, so when the missile rails were removed it was basically just a regular wing fence. (and also IIRC, the French never actually fitted their Jaguars with the top pylons) The Jaguar overwing pylons were actually something that was invented for the Jaguar International export variant, I think due to an actual customer requirement, and then got retrofitted onto the Jaguar GR.1A because it was a quick job. The French weren't interested in them because the French weren't really that keen on the Jaguar as an advanced strike aircraft (they had Mirage F.1s arriving to do that) so the Jag was a cheap and cheerful tool for assisting the transition of former French colonies to French colonies. Lightning had some fun export options for the overwings as well, including that concerning looking combined SNEB/Drop Tank, Twin Racks for standard SNEB pods and the frankly terrifying prospect of a 1000lb bomb rack that used explosive bolts to throw the bomb away from the wing. In theory we sold all of this stuff to Saudi Arabia. In practice I suspect it all got chucked in a shed and they spent their service lives tooling around with fuel tanks on the wings.  This is not maximum rocket because it doesn't have the 2" A2A rockets on the centreline, but it's drat close.
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Nov 8, 2018 03:52
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Well why doesn't the plane just roll over if it needs to drop the top tanks. 
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Nov 8, 2018 04:10
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Because getting things to fall down is already hard enough why complicate it further https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPTnmZ_HPAs
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Nov 8, 2018 04:20
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BIG HEADLINE posted:Crossposting from the Aviation Geek thread: I had no idea this was opened up. You still needed an active clearance in the 2000s.
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Nov 8, 2018 04:30
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is there a short answer for why poo poo above the wings adds more drag than poo poo below the wings or is that a question best left for aeronautical engineering exams?
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Nov 8, 2018 04:33
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Splode posted:is there a short answer for why poo poo above the wings adds more drag than poo poo below the wings or is that a question best left for aeronautical engineering exams? air is moving faster over the top of the wing aka "lift"
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Nov 8, 2018 04:36
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bewbies posted:air is moving faster over the top of the wing aka "lift" Ahh, yeah, thanks
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Nov 8, 2018 04:39
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Raenir Salazar posted:I don't think we've heard any stories out of China have we about theirs or are they still continuing a strategy of economy of force to prompt the US to overspend on not enough? The PLA actually puts out a ton of info, and a lot of it is extraordinarily self-flagellating ...it is like they didn't get the memo from the CPC about discretion and honor and they just pull down their pants all the time about their shortcomings. It could be disinformation of course but still. It seems to me like a lot of the west and particularly the US has a very fundamental misunderstanding about what China wants to do and how they're going about making that happen. Basically, in the short term, they want nothing more that 1) stability and 2) new export markets. That's it. Nothing about Taiwan, or keeping the US out of the western Pacific, or taking over Asia, or any of that stuff. The DoD is to blame more than anyone for these misconceptions...our own security strategy says they want to be a hegemon and whatnot. Point being, they've rebuilt the PLA from the ground up, and are modeling it after the US military in just about every important respect. They want a lighter force, that can be expeditionary if required (note: they do NOT want to be world police) and can defend Chinese borders and interests abroad. Once again...that's it. That's their near and mid term goal. Nothing about beating the US Navy, nothing about winning a regional war with the US and friends, etc etc. In other words, they're not the least bit focused on the US, while the US seems increasingly obsessed with Chinese military power. To that end, the Chinese are finding that building a modern mechanized networked force is REALLY hard, and they have a LOT of problems to deal with. They assess themselves very poorly at doing the things they say they want to do, and it is causing a lot of people a lot of headaches...they're having to redo their entire basic training process, for instance, and are building new leadership training from scratch in order to get away from the mass conscript army mentality. Longer term you see more phrases like "win a major war" and "world power", but even then, it isn't the US that they're most concerned with. You can probably guess who the longer shadow belongs to.
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Nov 8, 2018 04:47
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Godholio posted:I had no idea this was opened up. You still needed an active clearance in the 2000s. There evidently are still classified briefings that take place in the classroom areas, so there's sensitive materials on-site, but the tour page specifically shows civilians at the TTF, so I'd imagine it takes some prep, but it's *semi*-open. You just can't show up there before hitting the commissary.
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Nov 8, 2018 05:21
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bewbies posted:Longer term you see more phrases like "win a major war" and "world power", but even then, it isn't the US that they're most concerned with. You can probably guess who the longer shadow belongs to.
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Nov 8, 2018 09:19
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Splode posted:is there a short answer for why poo poo above the wings adds more drag than poo poo below the wings or is that a question best left for aeronautical engineering exams? Also, it disrupts the actual lift provided by the wing, but you still pay the drag part of the lift/drag ratio for that part. So you have to pay it again for lift that works somewhere else (Or increase AOA).
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Nov 8, 2018 09:35
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Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad collided with a tanker last night and has been run aground to prevent it from sinking. Article in Norwegian https://www.aftenposten.no/norge/i/yv2kBa/Tankskip-og-fregatt-kolliderte-ved-Oygarden--syv-lettere-skadet Only some minor personell injuries on the frigate, and the tanker only suffered minor damage, but the damage to the frigate looks substantial. The sea state was supposedly calm, and the cause for the collision is not yet known. E: Video of the crew being evacuated https://vimeo.com/299606100 EE: Welp, this is getting expensive 
VKing fucked around with this message at 16:34 on Nov 8, 2018 |
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Nov 8, 2018 09:51
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aphid_licker posted:My grasp of international relations is poor enough that I need this spelled out to me, this refers to India, right? They have had multiple border wars with India in the relatively recent past as well as an ongoing border dispute so that's my guess. They have not had the friendliest of relations recently either.
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Nov 8, 2018 09:55
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VKing posted:Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad collided with a tanker last night and has been run aground to prevent it from sinking. Even more now... 
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Nov 8, 2018 13:59
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Built Fjord tough!
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Nov 8, 2018 14:05
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PhotoKirk posted:Built Fjord tough! haha
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Nov 8, 2018 14:06
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Turn port Sven! Noooo!
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Nov 8, 2018 14:13
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That's well above than half a billion USD's of warship, right there. And that was 12 years ago, before costs escalated by some 40%. Somebody's in deep water. E: Oh right and since the incident forced the oil terminals nearby into shutdown, five large oil fields in the North Sea had to be taken offline as well. Yes, this is becoming expensive! Pursesnatcher fucked around with this message at 14:51 on Nov 8, 2018 |
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Nov 8, 2018 14:48
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My question about China is, if they’re not really concerned with building a force to confront the US navy then why are they all in on building military outposts the South China Sea? We have a fair few regional allies/partners who are, for lack of a better word, not happy about those moves. And look to the US military for support. I feel like if China was really concerned about stability and avoiding a potential incident they would approach their claims with a bit more nuance than “build fake reef, stack it full of military hardware, claim the entire surrounding sea/land as Chinese sovereignty and everyone else can gently caress off”.
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Nov 8, 2018 14:52
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Solaris 2.0 posted:My question about China is, if they’re not really concerned with building a force to confront the US navy then why are they all in on building military outposts the South China Sea? Because it's a sensible place to have a strongpoint. The US isn't the only country they can intimidate form there, and it forms the basis of a brute geopolitical clout aimed at other making other SE countries play ball.
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Nov 8, 2018 14:56
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Also imo China is deeply, deeply afraid of being cut off from overseas sources of raw materials, oil, and export trade. Their political stabilty is dependent on the economy not making GBS threads the bed, which it would if somebody (India and..uh..?) interdicted their sea trade. The navy seems to be focussed on making sure that the sea lanes to and from China can't be (easily) cut off by anyone short of a fullscale war (with the US mostly). Bluewater, but not global; overseas bases covering resource trade (eg all the new African deals they're making) and coastalish sea lanes along Asia, but they aren't trying to be able to project power in order to invade Hawaii or anything crazy.
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Nov 8, 2018 15:06
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If they can counterflood it enough they could take it to PD-50.
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Nov 8, 2018 15:22
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Plus, labor costs of development, acquisition, and recruitment aside, plenty of countries know that even if they couldn't in 100 years match the US in expeditionary conflict, all they have to do really is make a home-game fight cost too much for the US to deem it worth it.
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Nov 8, 2018 15:25
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There was also mention that they want to push that defensive line off the Chinese coastland proper. This extends their response times and reduces the risk to actual important infrastructure. There’s a very important sub base on Hainan AFAIK as an example.
Mazz fucked around with this message at 15:45 on Nov 8, 2018 |
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Nov 8, 2018 15:41
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RandomPauI posted:If they can counterflood it enough they could take it to PD-50. 
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Nov 8, 2018 16:00
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Don Gato posted:They have had multiple border wars with India in the relatively recent past as well as an ongoing border dispute so that's my guess. They have not had the friendliest of relations recently either. India and Russia should be their main concerns. China and Russia have had shooting wars along their borders not even all that long ago. Also, if historic forces tell us anything look at what direction the great wall is meant to defend from.
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Nov 8, 2018 16:05
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Kesper North posted:Might have been due to the spike of paranoia around Asian business buying up American real estate en masse. There was a fear back in the 1980s that major American corporations (like GM) would end up owned by Japanese companies. And China was also a thing. If you look at a graph of GDP over time there is a period there from the 70's to the 90's where Japan shot way, way up very, very fast before eventually falling back. Like, if they had been able to sustain that growth they would be many times more wealthy than the US today. Imagine if Japan had an economy that generated 30 or 40 trillion a year?
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Nov 8, 2018 16:14
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Murgos posted:India and Russia should be their main concerns. All eyes on Ulan Bator? 
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Nov 8, 2018 16:29
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Mazz posted:There was also mention that they want to push that defensive line off the Chinese coastland proper. This extends their response times and reduces the risk to actual important infrastructure. There’s a very important sub base on Hainan AFAIK as an example. it's this. China has been invaded more than any other place in history. that casts a long shadow in a culture. they don't want to fight on Chinese soil ever again. that isn't to say their actions aren't provocative, but they ostensibly aren't intended to be aggressive
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Nov 8, 2018 16:33
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bewbies posted:it's this. Their actions also make sense considering it’s been US policy for the past few decades to literally encircle and contain China
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Nov 8, 2018 18:02
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China is destroying their country side just fine on their own.
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Nov 8, 2018 18:06
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We call it preemptive scorched earth
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Nov 8, 2018 18:10
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LingcodKilla posted:China is destroying their country side just fine on their own. Speaking of, Karachi in Pakistan has a population nearly the size of Canada's, and no water. https://interactive.aljazeera.com/aje/2017/parched-for-price/index.html https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2016/jun/28/karachi-pakistan-water-crisis
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Nov 8, 2018 18:31
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VKing posted:Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad collided with a tanker last night and has been run aground to prevent it from sinking. I'm reading comments online she was docked when rammed by the tanker being towed by tugboats.
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Nov 8, 2018 18:55
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bewbies posted:air is moving faster over the top of the wing aka "lift" Splode posted:Ahh, yeah, thanks Actually no to this explanation. It does result in some additional drag but lift isn't created by differing air pressures due to air movement. Lift is created by the delta V between the stagnant air and the air being pushed away by the wings. It's a vectors thing and the air leaving the wing is at an angle from the AoA and you need to have enough force counteracting gravity. The whole "air speed creates differential pressure" thing is one of the most common misconceptions about physics I see. When talking about over-wing mounts likely the issues with loading/unloading are far more likely than aerodynamic concerns.  https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/right2.html
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Nov 8, 2018 19:43
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AlexanderCA posted:I'm reading comments online she was docked when rammed by the tanker being towed by tugboats. Definitely not docked. Possibly at anchor, but it would be an incredibly bad place to anchor at. NRK has an AIS track animation.
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Nov 8, 2018 22:11
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Kesper North posted:Might have been due to the spike of paranoia around Asian business buying up American real estate en masse. There was a fear back in the 1980s that major American corporations (like GM) would end up owned by Japanese companies. See also Blade Runner, or Rising Sun by other big name 80s novelist Michael Crichton.
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Nov 8, 2018 22:38
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Or Die Hard.
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Nov 8, 2018 22:38
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Clive Cussler's Dragon is another example, as is Robocop 3.
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Nov 8, 2018 22:39
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