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OwlFancier posted:God forbid someone be against the elderly. Old people defeated both Hitler and James Callaghan. 1957 An Irish Republican Army attack on the Brookeborough police barracks in Northern Ireland leads to the deaths of Seán South and Fergal O'Hanlon. The Soviet Union announces that Swedish envoy Raoul Wallenberg had died in a Soviet prison "possibly of a heart attack" on July 17, 1947. British Prime Minister Anthony Eden resigns. Ayn Rand's fourth, last and longest novel, Atlas Shrugged, is published in the United States. Space Age – Sputnik program: The Soviet Union launches Sputnik 1, the first artificial satellite to orbit the earth. U.S. President Dwight D. Eisenhower has a stroke. The sitcom Leave It to Beaver premieres on CBS in the United States. Katt fucked around with this message at 18:43 on Nov 8, 2018 |
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Nov 8, 2018 18:35
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OwlFancier posted:God forbid someone be against the elderly. So you're against this specific set of elderly then? Do you expect to be just as terrible as the current olds when you're their age?
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Nov 8, 2018 18:38
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namesake posted:Not if that 18 year old is terminally ill right now they won't. If you're doing an actuary exercise around life expectancy then you have to factor some of these things in or it's just a policy against the elderly. In cheerier news: Bozza may have forsaken us but a new challenger arises. I know many of you are fans of train related stories, but perhaps not all of you lurk the OSHA thread in GBS. You should! Because forums user OrthoTrot, who despite having a perfectly UKMT name doesn't post in the UKMT, has been posting some really good stuff about UK train disasters and the causes behind them. Their posts are here and I recommend reading them: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3763899&userid=106859 Highlights include the Clapham Junction collision and the Ladbroke Grove crash. e: why is there no train emote big scary monsters fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Nov 8, 2018 |
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Nov 8, 2018 18:39
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There have been some truly bizarre and grotesque statements made in this thread in the last few pages, you can't just drop phrases like "meat raffle" and "I went into the local conservative club" on an unsuspecting poster. Have you no shame UKMT?
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Nov 8, 2018 18:39
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Regarde Aduck posted:So you're against this specific set of elderly then? This, of course, assumes that if we don't get the current olds out of power, I or anyone else will live to reach their age.
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Nov 8, 2018 18:40
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Disenfranchising the old is bad. There i said it 
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Nov 8, 2018 18:43
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EvilGenius posted:General elections are completely different. The fewer seats the leading party has, the harder it is for them gently caress people over. In a referendum, if the government chooses to enact the result, they can dick over people based on a tiny majority voting a certain way. You can get a firm majority of seats with less than 50% of the vote in a multiparty democracy while a two choice referendum requires 50%+, in principle it's easier to do very stupid things due to an election than a referendum. JeremoudCorbynejad posted:Disenfranchising the old is bad.
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Nov 8, 2018 18:47
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JeremoudCorbynejad posted:Disenfranchising the old is bad. Counter argument. If the old didn’t vote we’d be doing really well. We’re just not very good at disenfranchising them
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Nov 8, 2018 18:48
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Katt posted:An Irish Republican Army attack on the Brookeborough police barracks in Northern Ireland leads to the deaths of Seán South and Fergal O'Hanlon. A Soviet Union attack on the Brookeborough police barracks in Northern Ireland leads to the deaths of Seán South and Fergal O'Hanlon. Ayn Rand's fourth, last and longest novel, Atlas Died of a Heart Attack, is published in the United States. The sitcom Leave It to Anthony Eden premieres on CBS in the United States. The Irish Republican Army launches Space Age 1, the first artificial satellite to orbit the earth. U.S. President Dwight D. Eisenhower strokes a beaver.
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Nov 8, 2018 18:49
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I am also, frankly, entirely willing to be thrown into a giant meat grinder when I reach age 45 as long as I get to watch the current crop of twats get thrown into it first.
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Nov 8, 2018 18:50
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Regarde Aduck posted:So you're against this specific set of elderly then? JeremoudCorbynejad posted:Disenfranchising the old is bad. namesake posted:You can get a firm majority of seats with less than 50% of the vote in a multiparty democracy while a two choice referendum requires 50%+, in principle it's easier to do very stupid things due to an election than a referendum.
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Nov 8, 2018 18:52
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fwiw I don't buy the notion that you automatically get shitter as you age, or at least not that that's the reason why the current old farts are overwhelmingly lovely people. Because the people who came just before them were not as bad and I don't think the people who come after them will be quite as bad. But it's still a case of right now they're all voting to drive the van of civilization off a cliff and we're all in it saying "well when we get old and are driving the van and it's half way to the bottom of the canyon, we'll vote to turn it around"
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Nov 8, 2018 18:54
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You have to base democracy on the principle that everyone is entitled to a vote, however this won't guarantee proportional representation if one demographic is more likely to vote than another. See the UK where parties pander to olds, because they're far more likely to vote. You can't start messing with weightings or taking votes away from certain demographics, because it assumes your definitions of demographic boundaries are correct and fair. The only fair voting system you'll get is one where everyone can and does vote. If young people voted, they wouldn't be so consistently dicked over by olds.
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Nov 8, 2018 18:56
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Well no it’s probably that their generation got affordable housing and decent paying jobs and gently caress us for wanting them to maybe share that. Also Australia has mandatory voting and its not a country I’d say is doing super well democratically
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Nov 8, 2018 18:57
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I thought we'd been through this before and it's not being old that makes you bad, it's having money. It's just that old people have most of the money. Franchise based on wealth and property isn't a new idea, it's just been applied incorrectly in the past by granting landowners exclusively the vote rather than stripping it from them.
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Nov 8, 2018 18:58
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Sorry no we're all sitting in the back of the van saying "It's OK, we're organizing a grassroots movement to increase youth control of the van and we estimate that by the time it's a third of the way to the bottom of the canyon we will have significantly increased our representation in the driver's seat"
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Nov 8, 2018 18:58
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OwlFancier posted:fwiw I don't buy the notion that you automatically get shitter as you age, or at least not that that's the reason why the current old farts are overwhelmingly lovely people. Because the people who came just before them were not as bad and I don't think the people who come after them will be quite as bad. Economically the arguments for not being a FYGM poo poo are the same now as they were in 1848, so if an older or younger population are worse than those before or after them its not likely to be just a case of natural progression.
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Nov 8, 2018 18:58
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OwlFancier posted:fwiw I don't buy the notion that you automatically get shitter as you age, or at least not that that's the reason why the current old farts are overwhelmingly lovely people. Because the people who came just before them were not as bad and I don't think the people who come after them will be quite as bad. EvilGenius posted:You have to base democracy on the principle that everyone is entitled to a vote, however this won't guarantee proportional representation if one demographic is more likely to vote than another. See the UK where parties pander to olds, because they're far more likely to vote.
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Nov 8, 2018 19:03
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OwlFancier posted:fwiw I don't buy the notion that you automatically get shitter as you age, or at least not that that's the reason why the current old farts are overwhelmingly lovely people. Because the people who came just before them were not as bad and I don't think the people who come after them will be quite as bad. In the olden days when the son used the same tools and machines as his grandfather. Old people were considered wise because of their experience with the things we used in our daily lives. These days things advance so fast that you barely use the same things for 20 years but the now myth of old/wise remains and none are as quick to believe it as old people. So while old people get dumber and less relevant with age. They also become more self confident in what they don't know. It's the Dunning–Kruger effect but instead of being a curve it just goes up into infinity.
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Nov 8, 2018 19:05
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Katt posted:Space Age – Sputnik program: The Soviet Union launches Sputnik 1, the first artificial satellite to orbit the earth. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZwLIvRA6cM Made it in time for page 57?
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Nov 8, 2018 19:06
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Also, in a general election, old people only gently caress things up for 5 years - sure, some of them will die during that time, but proportionally most olds won't. A referendum on changes for 40 years.... That's the one most olds will die in the process of enacting, and why their vote should have less weight on those issues.
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Nov 8, 2018 19:11
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Nothingtoseehere posted:Also, in a general election, old people only gently caress things up for 5 years - sure, some of them will die during that time, but proportionally most olds won't. A referendum on changes for 40 years.... That's the one most olds will die in the process of enacting, and why their vote should have less weight on those issues. Make them all write the reason for their vote in the referendum and pay loads of people to read them. Any that are racist or ridiculous get thrown out.
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Nov 8, 2018 19:21
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Puntification posted:There have been some truly bizarre and grotesque statements made in this thread in the last few pages, you can't just drop phrases like "meat raffle" and "I went into the local conservative club" on an unsuspecting poster. Have you no shame UKMT? If you've never participated in a meat raffle, I question your prole credentials.
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Nov 8, 2018 19:21
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Nothingtoseehere posted:Also, in a general election, old people only gently caress things up for 5 years - sure, some of them will die during that time, but proportionally most olds won't. A referendum on changes for 40 years.... That's the one most olds will die in the process of enacting, and why their vote should have less weight on those issues. No that's not right because national policy echoes for decades well after it could start to be thought of as 'over'. Iraq war anyone? Poll tax? Windrush? WW2? Generational war is a product of the class war, nothing more and unlike other demographic inequalities it doesn't actually need any other solution than class based ones.
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Nov 8, 2018 19:25
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big scary monsters posted:There is actually a system in place to prevent both the elderly and the terminally ill from voting in future elections, it's called death. It's not a perfect system but it's the one we've got. Thanks! As a former employee of a large, incredibly popular, national transport organisation - ahem - I've missed reading crash investigation reports. Former boss was a witness at the Ladbroke Grove inquiry.
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Nov 8, 2018 19:28
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JeremoudCorbynejad posted:Disenfranchising the old is bad. This. The people who have worked the most in society being told to go gently caress themselves because they don't matter any more they'll die soon anyway. I'm a millenial but I can spot that's far from egalitarian. Frankly I can't understand why there's so much pro EU sentiment here. I celebrate brexit as at least one layer of poo poo off a lovely system. It's a bosses club. The troika forced a frightening austerity on the Greeks, and they are pro privitisation. You can't nationalise in the EU.
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Nov 8, 2018 19:36
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OwlFancier posted:Sorry no we're all sitting in the back of the van saying "It's OK, we're organizing a grassroots movement to increase youth control of the van and we estimate that by the time it's a third of the way to the bottom of the canyon we will have significantly increased our representation in the driver's seat" No, what happened was that the old said "You're going to drive this van over the cliff after we get out".
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Nov 8, 2018 19:38
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Definitely not helping your not-a-tory cred with your pro brexit "worked hard so I deserve it" position.
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Nov 8, 2018 19:39
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We're "pro-EU" in terms of crashing out of the EU is going to make life massively worse for a massive amount of people.
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Nov 8, 2018 19:39
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I really should go about getting the Irish passport I'm entitled to.
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Nov 8, 2018 19:40
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lentilrental posted:This. The people who have worked the most in society being told to go gently caress themselves because they don't matter any more they'll die soon anyway. I'm a millenial but I can spot that's far from egalitarian. Frankly I can't understand why there's so much pro EU sentiment here. I celebrate brexit as at least one layer of poo poo off a lovely system. gently caress off
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Nov 8, 2018 19:46
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Nothingtoseehere posted:Also, in a general election, old people only gently caress things up for 5 years - sure, some of them will die during that time, but proportionally most olds won't. A referendum on changes for 40 years.... That's the one most olds will die in the process of enacting, and why their vote should have less weight on those issues. This is really an argument against having a referendum in the first place (or taking the result as gospel, instead of as a guide for new negotiations with the EU).
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Nov 8, 2018 19:47
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EvilGenius posted:You have to base democracy on the principle that everyone is entitled to a vote History proves this absolutely isn't true. You can still be a democracy if you only give the franchise to property owners, or disenfranchise slaves. The manifesto of the Kronstradt rebels in 1921 was still for a democracy despite it only extending the franchise to workers, soldiers, sailors & peasants.
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Nov 8, 2018 19:51
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New proposal: votes are weighted inversely proportional to wealth.
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Nov 8, 2018 19:54
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I am definitely in favour of disenfranchising landlords.
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Nov 8, 2018 19:54
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Gyro Zeppeli posted:We're "pro-EU" in terms of crashing out of the EU is going to make life massively worse for a massive amount of people. I wouldn't agree or disagree with this yet, only time will tell. ShaneMacGowansTeeth posted:gently caress off
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Nov 8, 2018 19:56
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lentilrental posted:You can't nationalise in the EU. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jul/27/france-nationalises-strategic-shipyard-emmanuel-macron 
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Nov 8, 2018 19:58
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An actual conversation from today. For context, half a dozen students have been suspended from the university for setting off fireworks at 2am ON A WEEKNIGHT Older Woman: "These students at the university setting off fireworks, eh? I voted for Brexit and they have the cheek to tell me that I shouldn't have had a vote because it's about their future, and they all they do is stuff like this." Me: "..." OW: "The problem is that they let everybody in to university these days, and that includes some from London who just want to take drugs all day. And they don't even do proper subjects, they do a degree in Elvis Presley rather than something useful for the country." Me: "..." I also spoke to a 70yr old man whose first mail order bride took him for £80,000, and because he can't get his second mail order bride into the country he's moving to the Ukraine to be with her.
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Nov 8, 2018 19:58
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I'm so glad you've got all the comfort in the world to wait and see. Shame that literally millions of people don't have that luxury. God, you have to be taking the piss, don't you? No-one could really be this dense in real life. Then I remember you're pals with Tories and are almost certainly a Tory yourself and I remember that, yes, people absolutely could be that callous.
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Nov 8, 2018 19:59
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superLINUS posted:I also spoke to a 70yr old man whose first mail order bride took him for £80,000, and because he can't get his second mail order bride into the country he's moving to the Ukraine to be with her. That's true love
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