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Yeah, I feel like in order to have a good proper boss fight in Payday 2, it would literally have to be a Metal Gear Rex or something.
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Nov 6, 2018 16:34
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Payday 2 as it is just both incapable of having real stealth even by MGS1 standards and probably too far gone to have a real boss as the real difficulty is the cop horde. But that's something a potential sequel could hopefully build up on if they actually build a good dev team again, specifically one that doesn't need like several drills, hold F to build up something objectives. Crabtree fucked around with this message at 16:54 on Nov 6, 2018 |
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Nov 6, 2018 16:40
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Crabtree posted:Payday 2 as it is just both incapable of having real stealth even by MGS1 standards and probably too far gone to have a real boss as the real difficulty is the cop horde. We're looking at getting some interesting bosses working, and it's doable, but it's going to be a ton of work. The three big design issues are: 1. Co-op fps bosses are inherently hard to design 2. Payday 2 player weaponsets are really variable and some of them are really overpowered at this point, letting you ice anything very rapidly 3. A lot of the details we'd need to adjust would be difficult and require major, awkward, labor-intensive workarounds. FWIW we've already gotten the game about as challenging on Crackdown as Death Sentence, with half the enemies, simply by re-enabling a lot of AI and tactics material that goes unused. The enemy's still a horde, but it's a smaller, more tactical horde (within the incredibly primitive AI, ofc) A note on MGS and payday stealth: there's a billion differences, but the single most important difference, the one that makes comparisons really unfair, is that MGS (and hitman, and tenchu, and every other major stealth game other than Thief, for very good reason) is third person. That fundamentally changes the information players get about their surroundings. Could payday 3 have better stealth? Sure, but it's never going to be like a third person stealth game because the player has way, way less information available. Could you say more about the other objectives you'd like to see in a sequel? Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 17:42 on Nov 6, 2018 |
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Nov 6, 2018 17:40
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Discendo Vox posted:We're looking at getting some interesting bosses working, and it's doable, but it's going to be a ton of work. The three big design issues are: I mean counter point. Thief 1 has better stealth mechanics and it's first person
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Nov 6, 2018 17:54
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Onmi posted:I mean counter point. Thief 1 has better stealth mechanics and it's first person Thief does a lot with lighting that most newer stealth games don’t bother with. In Thief you were 100% invisible in darkness, so you could sit in the corner of a room and not get seen unless a guard walked directly into you. So you didn’t really need the psychic 3rd person camera.
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Nov 6, 2018 17:57
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Stealth is terrible because it is way too dependent on RNG and there is no intermediate failure state. Those are what they should look at in Payday 3 if they want to make stealth more bearable. Not sure about what mechanics they want for Payday 3 but I also think this isn't really a game series where it's possible to have varied boss fights. ARG stuff aside most of this series is focused on the real world, with actual human enemies (albeit ones who can take multiple grenade explosions, keep shooting while on fire, and withstand multiple bullets to the face), and so it's a bit hard to give them special abilities beyond high damage and high health.
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Nov 6, 2018 18:28
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Discendo Vox posted:We're looking at getting some interesting bosses working, and it's doable, but it's going to be a ton of work. The three big design issues are: Dishonored Edit: And before you bring up the powers part of it, the sequel gives you the option to play without using powers at all, and it can still be 100% stealthed I believe.
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Nov 6, 2018 18:31
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Stealth should give infinite pagers, but scale the rewards so if you use 100% pagers you get no payout. If you use 0% pagers you get full payout. So sure if you want to clear the map and just complete the objective that's great but you aren't getting a dime for it. I think first person stealth is fine you just have to give players a larger window if they bumble into line of sight of a guard. Give a one second "huh, what was that noise" before starting the alert circle.
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Nov 6, 2018 18:33
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MGSV exists and is well received in its gameplay because its stealth is malleable and salvageable. It doesn't always need to be this way, but the fact that at least I wanted something to make guards pick up and loving move to check out a noise by just throwing something or smashing an object that isn't a camera since like 2014 has always been this game's issue. In a world where stealth has accepted even loving tapping a wall as a lure, Payday's stealth was rendered absolute poo poo the first time we needed a specific skill to answer more than 3 pagers.
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Nov 6, 2018 18:35
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Elendil004 posted:Stealth should give infinite pagers, but scale the rewards so if you use 100% pagers you get no payout. If you use 0% pagers you get full payout. So sure if you want to clear the map and just complete the objective that's great but you aren't getting a dime for it. It would be better if melee'ing a guard doesnt activate their pager but shooting them does. Also shooting someone should cause blood spatter? Blood spatter that would be noticeable by other guards. You can get more than 4 pagers but the more you trigger the higher the chance there will be a new set of patrols that go out or something. I agree that there should be something better than the binary "You are currently in stealth" and "you done hosed up and are now out of stealth". AAAAA! Real Muenster fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Nov 6, 2018 |
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Nov 6, 2018 18:38
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Hey it was a suggestion  It would be nice to have an inbetween state where guards are alert and searching, and you have to skillfully avoid them and clean up and after a while they go back to 'full' stealth so you have less of an instant fail state going loud.
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Nov 6, 2018 18:42
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#loudandproud
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Nov 6, 2018 19:02
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Elendil004 posted:Hey it was a suggestion  Elendil004 posted:It would be nice to have an inbetween state where guards are alert and searching, and you have to skillfully avoid them and clean up and after a while they go back to 'full' stealth so you have less of an instant fail state going loud.
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Nov 6, 2018 19:05
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The trouble with the stealth design is that they kind of went through several different concepts on how it should work. Like at release, the stealth approach was less “sneak around the guards” and more about rushing the bank/stores quickly take down the guards and get the civilians under control before anyone can trigger an alarm. And the first time you do it, it’s actually pretty satisfying because it feels like a proper, smooth heist. Then you get stuck waiting several minutes for the drill to finish while literally nothing interesting happens. In later levels they switched to the Shadow Raid model, where there’s too many guards to take down so rush strategies don’t work anymore (I know you can still rush those maps with specific builds but it’s not the intended way to do them). So there’s no more “do 30 seconds of work and then have 0 risk for the entire rest of the game”, but it means that you end up with a lot of annoying “sit there and wait for the guard to randomly path away from the objective”. It also means that you can get 90% of the way through only to blow it any the last second and get dumped into loud (basically starting over since very few maps have stealth routes that will contribute to progress on the loud route) or just immediately failing you. It’s not a game that’s really designed to facilitate the Thief kind of stealth because as mentioned, the original design was much more focused on rushes and crowd control. Honestly I think that in terms of the original design intent, GO bank is the best stealth map because it allows you to MOSTLY lock down the map after a rush but still need to be on your toes to deal with the events. And everyone hates that level.
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Nov 6, 2018 19:13
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I can address a lot of this stealth stuff with some sort of effortpost, but frankly I'm going to be in a ball in a corner screaming to myself until today's over. Maybe after that? I've got a significant amount of inside info on how stealth sort of shook out for pd2, and the short version is I still don't think a lot of the stuff folks propose from other games (including thief) would work in its format- even if I can also point to specific, severe design issues on specific levels. note to self phase hist 1 "dark souls" rand, base display 2 circum model and info sys 3 alzheimers and placement example Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Nov 6, 2018 |
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Nov 6, 2018 19:45
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Discendo Vox posted:3 alzheimers
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Nov 6, 2018 20:08
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The Cheshire Cat posted:The trouble with the stealth design is that they kind of went through several different concepts on how it should work. Like at release, the stealth approach was less “sneak around the guards” and more about rushing the bank/stores quickly take down the guards and get the civilians under control before anyone can trigger an alarm. And the first time you do it, it’s actually pretty satisfying because it feels like a proper, smooth heist. Then you get stuck waiting several minutes for the drill to finish while literally nothing interesting happens. The main source of all of stealth's foundational problems is that it was clearly designed to create a "poo poo goes wrong, now what?" kind of feeling, hence the binary pass/fail states and limited pagers. They wanted to replicate the classic "hostage crawls over to the silent alarm button, well poo poo now the cops are here" heist dilemma. Basically, you were never really meant to full stealth any heist, which is why the boring as gently caress wait for the drill(s) and other objectives was never really considered in the early jobs and why the whole process is fiddly and failure-prone. Goldfarb carried a torch for the "meticulously practice a job over and over until you miraculously succeed against all odds  " idea but even then he wasn't shy about saying that successful stealth should be challenging to the point of being rare. The problem was that too many resources were then spent trying to flesh out stealth as a full system - the Ghost skill tree, all the various stealth bonuses, an increasing number of heists with fully unique Plan A stealth routes, and achievements incentivizing them. The end result is that a subset of the playerbase latched onto stealth, at which point Overkill began increasingly catering to them for better or worse. The game also started mutating quickly to the point where going loud, the supposed penalty for loving up in stealth, was actually vastly easier than ever being sneaky. Also helped by obviously being the more fully developed side of the game and generally more satisfying to play too. In short, selling players on failure being fun takes a delicate hand, one that Overkill completely lacked.I find it interesting that the core concept of "you can try and be quiet but eventually something will more than likely go wrong and you should be ready for it" carried forward into TWD. John Murdoch fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Nov 6, 2018 |
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Nov 6, 2018 22:13
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Will say one thing for The Raid, it was good to not have equipment affect your stealth chances, and it was good that you could knife as many guards as you wanted without the alarm automatically sounding.
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Nov 6, 2018 22:17
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The Cheshire Cat posted:Honestly I think that in terms of the original design intent, GO bank is the best stealth map because it allows you to MOSTLY lock down the map after a rush but still need to be on your toes to deal with the events. And everyone hates that level. If the progress didn't completely reset on a failed stealth on Go Bank, I would be all over the stealth model there. One of the best stealth heists for me is Jewlery Store/Diamond Store, mainly because of how you do have to control the crowd there. Plus failing something there doesn't mean progress reset, it just means that the cops are coming. Plus both of those hesists and Go Bank give everyone something to do. Unlike Firestarter 2, which in my group boiled down to "one guy attempts stealth while the other 3 sit down in the van geared up, waiting for him to fail" and that is not a fun way to tackle stealth. The camera access, either via the security room or the asset solves this problem but just for one guy. i'd like to see more assets like this one, maybe some minigames that could help you, let's say delay the alarms a bit by rerouting alarm connections or some other actions that can help the people attempting stealth. Maybe aerial reconissance from drones? When PD2 was first developed drones were barely a thing and now they are everywhere, why not add them to PD3? On topic of the new heists, I loving broke down into hysterical laughter when, for once, the Payday gang has to connect the drill to the power socket.
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Nov 6, 2018 23:19
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They've had to do so before in Counterfeit. There are also technically drones in the game already, but they're just glorified cameras to patch into. I guess I wouldn't mind them taking ideas wholesale from Watchdogs 2.
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Nov 6, 2018 23:44
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Is there a Walking Dead thread? I'm digging the new game quite a bit.
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Nov 7, 2018 00:12
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BigglesSWE posted:Is there a Walking Dead thread? I'm digging the new game quite a bit.
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Nov 7, 2018 00:25
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Reviews seem to be mixed from people still crying over Crimefest 2015, because safes. I don't know if there's a thread but there is a channel in the discord and I guess I'm the player who 'knows stuff' about it at the moment. I might put together a thread tomorrow.
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Nov 7, 2018 03:42
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It's honestly better than it was in beta. By how much is debatable, but this is decent.
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Nov 7, 2018 03:52
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Gort posted:Will say one thing for The Raid, it was good to not have equipment affect your stealth chances, and it was good that you could knife as many guards as you wanted without the alarm automatically sounding. PDTH did this as well (did it first) and it made "stealth until you can't" significantly more viable than PD2 where the opportunity cost of a stealth build went way, way up as opposed to "bring a B9S in your pistol slot if you feel like it" or Raid's "who cares, use the knife" that's really what it comes down to, the ease of a heist going from stealth to loud is directly related to the opportunity cost of a stealth build. in pdth the cost was basically 0, in pd2 it's huge. It is therefore no surprise the PD2 stealth experience is essentially a binary of "stealth or reset" instead of "stealth until you go loud"
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Nov 7, 2018 04:10
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BigglesSWE posted:Is there a Walking Dead thread? I'm digging the new game quite a bit. A few of us are playing in the PD2 discord. Same name as here, ping me in that channel we can hook up.
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Nov 7, 2018 04:27
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We're going to try to make the discord also function as the walking dead discord, since there's an expected degree of interest overlap.
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Nov 7, 2018 04:27
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Psion posted:
They basically gave in to the former once they made mandatory stealth heists, which are frankly a terrible idea for this model of stealth.
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Nov 7, 2018 04:56
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Wastrel_ posted:They basically gave in to the former once they made mandatory stealth heists, which are frankly a terrible idea for this model of stealth. And really if you're going to have "Stealth Only" heists, they need a more robust system than "Caught and hosed"
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Nov 7, 2018 05:45
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Yeah, I'm pretty sure I've only ever run the stealth only heists solo, because doing it with a group is just like, increasing the odds that someone fucks up and forces a restart.
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Nov 7, 2018 05:48
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Psion posted:PDTH did this as well (did it first) and it made "stealth until you can't" significantly more viable than PD2 where the opportunity cost of a stealth build went way, way up as opposed to "bring a B9S in your pistol slot if you feel like it" or Raid's "who cares, use the knife" One of the last Raid updates before they quietly pulled the plug was a stealth revamp that added a Welrod that appeared to be otherwise useless outside of stealth so I imagine it would've continued that binary pass/fail route if support continued. I don't mind detection based on loadout being a thing for crits/dodge but it's awful for stealth because it contributes to how hosed up the binary state is. Also IMO the ideal number of players for stealth is two. There are things that get way harder for just one person to do and if all else fails the second person can be your spotter.
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Nov 7, 2018 06:01
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The Cheshire Cat posted:The trouble with the stealth design is that they kind of went through several different concepts on how it should work. Like at release, the stealth approach was less “sneak around the guards” and more about rushing the bank/stores quickly take down the guards and get the civilians under control before anyone can trigger an alarm. And the first time you do it, it’s actually pretty satisfying because it feels like a proper, smooth heist. Then you get stuck waiting several minutes for the drill to finish while literally nothing interesting happens. Honestly, one of the most satisfying things in this entire game, and the one I've done the most, is the bank heist. Coming in with 4 players and being able to lock down and control that whole building in a single go no matter the difficulty is deeply satisfying.
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Nov 7, 2018 06:36
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Is there a wiki or something for OTWD that explains all of the camp mechanics with survivors, upkeep, and all that jazz? Or did I miss a tutorial somewhere that explains all of this? I think I kind of understand it, but would like more information on it if it is out there somewhere.
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Nov 7, 2018 15:20
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Chaitai posted:Is there a wiki or something for OTWD that explains all of the camp mechanics with survivors, upkeep, and all that jazz? Or did I miss a tutorial somewhere that explains all of this? I think I kind of understand it, but would like more information on it if it is out there somewhere. I haven't seen a wiki or anything for the game as of yet, and there's no tutorials for survivors and upkeep as far as I know. I made a thread for the new dead game. https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3873665
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Nov 7, 2018 16:40
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by sheer insane coincidence i played this game for shits and giggles after like a year of not doing so, and looked up this thread to see whats up and just lol at it going full Indigo Prophecy batshit just a few days before
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Nov 7, 2018 22:42
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Tiler Kiwi posted:by sheer insane coincidence i played this game for shits and giggles after like a year of not doing so, and looked up this thread to see whats up and just lol at it going full Indigo Prophecy batshit just a few days before it was your aura
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Nov 7, 2018 23:07
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Tiler Kiwi posted:by sheer insane coincidence i played this game for shits and giggles after like a year of not doing so, and looked up this thread to see whats up and just lol at it going full Indigo Prophecy batshit just a few days before
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Nov 7, 2018 23:27
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https://twitter.com/TenChambers/status/1060620916533719040 welp
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Nov 9, 2018 00:53
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let's be real it's not like anyone was waiting around that hard for GTFO
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Nov 9, 2018 00:59
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Coolguye posted:let's be real it's not like anyone was waiting around that hard for GTFO I am 
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