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Peter Daou Bundy posted:things would be just as bad under hillary, but with more decorum. hurray, i guess. so many extraordinarily direct and formerly incomprehensible acts of mindbending executive cruelty and corruption have taken place in the last two years alone that I cannot believe you can subscribe to this notion, unless I am completely misunderstanding what you are saying here.
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Nov 9, 2018 07:31
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I have to say I am mildly astonished someone would assert Stephen Miller's child camps would exist under a Hillary Clinton Presidency.
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Nov 9, 2018 07:34
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https://twitter.com/erinbiba/status/1060748813269458945
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Nov 9, 2018 07:36
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Peter Daou Bundy posted:the economy would be doing gently caress all under hillary, just like trump, because they are both neoliberals. hillary would not close the child camps, just like obama, the deporter in chief, did not. things would be just as bad under hillary, but with more decorum. hurray, i guess. Iran Deal would still be around. Granted, we probably would be worse in terms of relations with North Korea, but I'm not expecting the current thaw with the U.S. to last. We also probably wouldn't pull out of the INF Treaty, which would be a much better state of affairs. Clinton would have sucked, but she wouldn't have sucked this much.
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Nov 9, 2018 07:36
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Ghost Leviathan posted:'Demographics are destiny' has always been an excuse for the Democrats to offer nothing to anyone but their donors. Welp you caught us red-handed, we're the DNC. Foiled again by detective Ace Hotshot over here. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 9, 2018 07:37
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Those school officials should be sued into the loving sun, holy poo poo.
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Nov 9, 2018 07:38
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Kavros posted:so many extraordinarily direct and formerly incomprehensible acts of mindbending executive cruelty and corruption have taken place in the last two years alone that I cannot believe you can subscribe to this notion, unless I am completely misunderstanding what you are saying here. These things largely existed under Obama; as such, it is not unthinkable that they wouldn't have continued under Clinton.
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Nov 9, 2018 07:38
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RuanGacho posted:I have to say I am mildly astonished someone would assert Stephen Miller's child camps would exist under a Hillary Clinton Presidency. this picture is from 2014, obama's dhs secretary is being given a tour of a child camp. 
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Nov 9, 2018 07:38
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GoluboiOgon posted:this picture is from 2014, obama's dhs secretary is being given a tour of a child camp. When there was an influx of unaccompanied minors who came over on their own, overflowing available facilities. No children were intentionally kidnapped from their parents, and the children were reunited with families in a reasonable manner. It was a failure that things got that bad, it was not an intentional policy. To conflate the two is massively ignorant and stupid.
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Nov 9, 2018 07:40
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canepazzo posted:Those school officials should be sued into the loving sun, holy poo poo. They won't be. If there's anything the school system is still good at, it's protecting athletes from consequences when they assault women.
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Nov 9, 2018 07:41
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GoluboiOgon posted:this picture is from 2014, obama's dhs secretary is being given a tour of a child camp. Hmm yes. And you say Obama removed children from their parents at the border? Shameful that it is 100% the same.
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Nov 9, 2018 07:43
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Uncle Wemus posted:Why can't dems ever control the narrative See Stephen Colbert's earlier tweets.
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Nov 9, 2018 07:43
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Yeah a 3rd term continuation of the Obama presidency would be ~slightly ~ better but he still was a war criminal who destroyed the Middle East , and Hillary would be a continuation of that . It will take somebody like AOC who actually gives a poo poo to see any change, not neoliberalism .
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Nov 9, 2018 07:46
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Uncle Wemus posted:Why can't dems ever control the narrative Someone posted this earlier in the thread, but it's a pretty comprehensive answer to this question, and everyone should watch it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAbab8aP4_A
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Nov 9, 2018 07:46
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Majorian posted:Someone posted this earlier in the thread, but it's a pretty comprehensive answer to this question, and everyone should watch it: Topical, as Earth-2 presidency would be even more obsessed with having the moral high ground.
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Nov 9, 2018 07:47
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Majorian posted:Granted, we probably would be worse in terms of relations with North Korea, but I'm not expecting the current thaw with the U.S. to last. Bullshit. It's not a real thaw, we'd be in exactly the same place. Trump hasn't undone anything in North Korea.
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Nov 9, 2018 07:47
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Shocked another man with a history of violence against women turns out to be a mass shooter.
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Nov 9, 2018 07:49
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theflyingorc posted:Bullshit. Trump doesn't deserve any credit per se for the stuff happening in Korea, but the stuff happening in Korea only is possible because Trump is so abjectly incompetent at managing American empire that there's a power vacuum for people like the South Korean president to exploit so they can do what they want. A hypothetical Clinton II Administration would not have been so bumbling in their response to North Korea and South Korea would've toed the line. We probably also would've been in TPP, which would've given South Korea more incentive to listen to the American government.
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Nov 9, 2018 07:49
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theflyingorc posted:Bullshit. Ehhhh...he kind of has, albeit unintentionally. His completely idiotic anti-diplomacy in 2017 basically took the U.S. away from the negotiating table, allowing South Korea more of a free hand in dealing with Pyongyang. Now he's taking a lot of undue credit for how things have played out, when it's Moon and Kim who have done basically all the work. But I'm not sure it would have played out the same way under Clinton. e: Beaten soundly by noted blackguard LK!  e2: \/\/\/that's a point that deserves to be stressed\/\/\/ Majorian fucked around with this message at 07:51 on Nov 9, 2018 |
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Nov 9, 2018 07:49
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Also the huge nationwide emboldening of Nazis would not have happened, which is kind of a big deal. Trumpism would've been rebuked as a losing strategy, and a sizable wing of the Republican Party would be pushing center rather than right.
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Nov 9, 2018 07:51
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Lemming posted:When there was an influx of unaccompanied minors who came over on their own, overflowing available facilities. No children were intentionally kidnapped from their parents, and the children were reunited with families in a reasonable manner. It was a failure that things got that bad, it was not an intentional policy. To conflate the two is massively ignorant and stupid. Well we did intentionally wreck their home countries causing them to come to the US in the first place.
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Nov 9, 2018 07:51
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Corky Romanovsky posted:These things largely existed under Obama; as such, it is not unthinkable that they wouldn't have continued under Clinton. This hasn't been true for over a year. Please stop spreading fascist whataboutism propaganda, thanks.
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Nov 9, 2018 07:52
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Majorian posted:Ehhhh...he kind of has, albeit unintentionally. His completely idiotic anti-diplomacy in 2017 basically took the U.S. away from the negotiating table, allowing South Korea more of a free hand in dealing with Pyongyang. Now he's taking a lot of undue credit for how things have played out, when it's Moon and Kim who have done basically all the work. But I'm not sure it would have played out the same way under Clinton. DPRK isn't behaving significantly different on the international stage that I've seen. Chats with Moon while they're still a brutal dictatorship doesn't change the board much.
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Nov 9, 2018 07:52
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Peter Daou Bundy posted:things would be just as bad under hillary, but with more decorum. hurray, i guess. To follow up on this, one (admittedly thin) silver lining of our present hell world could be that given that: 1. Democrats were in a weak position in 2016 if they barely won the presidency (no house/senate) 2. Midterms do not tend to go well for the presidential party 3. Hillary would be the perfect lightning rod for controversy There is a possibility the senate, house, and state level elections would have went even deeper red this 2018 election, setting up for an irrecoverably bad slaughter in 2020. One that may have had a more competently evil candidate at the helm instead of Trump. I know I’m basing this on some big assumptions about general historical trends. There are a lot of ‘ifs’ in that alternate reality scenario. But it’s a silver lining that I’ve been holding on to since 2016. And admittedly that silver lining erodes with every court seat filled by Trump.
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Nov 9, 2018 07:53
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Z. Autobahn posted:Also the huge nationwide emboldening of Nazis would not have happened, which is kind of a big deal. Trumpism would've been rebuked as a losing strategy, and a sizable wing of the Republican Party would be pushing center rather than right. I dunno that this is a given, we could've seen what is happening in the Democratic Party - i.e. progressives and socialists energized against Trump - happen in reverse for the Republicans. Another Tea Party wave, but much worse this time.
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Nov 9, 2018 07:53
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BadOptics posted:Well we did intentionally wreck their home countries causing them to come to the US in the first place. It was more Clinton herself who did that to Honduras. Yeah, it was on Obama's watch, but it's not really fair to pin the blame (or the intention) onto him.
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Nov 9, 2018 07:53
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GoluboiOgon posted:this picture is from 2014, obama's dhs secretary is being given a tour of a child camp. Are you an actual Republican Do you not understand that this was temporary due to a larger surge of unaccompanied minors, not deliberate cruelty
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Nov 9, 2018 07:54
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Anyone who has the balls to say that Hillary would have been worse with Beer and Gorsuch on the bench can gently caress right off.
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Nov 9, 2018 07:55
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BadOptics posted:Well we did intentionally wreck their home countries causing them to come to the US in the first place. Alright, we're not talking about whether Obama was good or bad, we're correcting the right wing lie that Trump is just continuing what was happening under Obama. Trump intentionally instituted a policy of kidnapping children from their parents and putting them in camps, which Obama never did.
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Nov 9, 2018 07:55
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theflyingorc posted:DPRK isn't behaving significantly different on the international stage that I've seen. Chats with Moon while they're still a brutal dictatorship doesn't change the board much. Their being a brutal dictatorship really doesn't enter into it - the U.S. has successfully engaged in disarmament talks and agreements with brutal regimes before. The DPRK actually is behaving pretty differently right now on an international level, and it's because diplomacy is happening exclusively along bilateral lines. They don't have to deal with Seoul AND the U.S. as one party. That's why we're seeing things like direct meetings between the two leaders, Kim going to the South, the North Koreans sending a delegation and athletes to the Olympics, etc.
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Nov 9, 2018 07:56
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theflyingorc posted:Are you an actual Republican The fact that they're being effectively housed in a juvenile detention facility with fences rather than a welcoming and happier place is still damning against our country. That said, laying the blame at Obama's feet is ahistorical, the current system of dealing with immigrants and refugees so cruelly dates back to at least the Clinton Administration, if not further back to the '60s.
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Nov 9, 2018 07:56
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This all supposes a certain ideological flexibility of the voting public, that I'm not sure exists. I'm not convinced just based on the light consideration that Republican obstructionism during Obama didn't exactly win them friends with millenials or Z.
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Nov 9, 2018 07:56
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Has there been some recent campaign to boost the message that Obama is a war criminal? I swear I've seen a 10x increase in that reference lately.
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Nov 9, 2018 07:57
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Lightning Knight posted:The fact that they're being effectively housed in a juvenile detention facility with fences rather than a welcoming and happier place is still damning against our country. I didn't say it was GOOD, but it sure as hell isn't the same. And again - temporary, more caused by underfunding than by hatred, and we weren't actively trying to grow said camps like Trump is
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Nov 9, 2018 07:58
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Smeef posted:Has there been some recent campaign to boost the message that Obama is a war criminal? I swear I've seen a 10x increase in that reference lately. Leftist political thought has been more popular recently, and this is a common leftist idea. It's distorted here in that it implies that Obama is uniquely bad, whereas it's more accurate to say that "being a war criminal" is effectively part of the job requirement of being president. In macrohistorical terms Obama was arguably much less bad than his predecessors and successor, albeit still bad. ^ I agree that Trump's policies are clearly worse than Obama's and represents a clear escalation of the system.
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Nov 9, 2018 07:59
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Smeef posted:Has there been some recent campaign to boost the message that Obama is a war criminal? I swear I've seen a 10x increase in that reference lately. All the presidents besides Lincoln are in the bad place.gif
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Nov 9, 2018 08:00
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Lightning Knight posted:They won't be. If there's anything the school system is still good at, it's protecting athletes from consequences when they assault women. maybe for real sportz like manly football. Running isnt a sport, thats just putting one foot infront of the other really fast.
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Nov 9, 2018 08:00
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Lightning Knight posted:The fact that they're being effectively housed in a juvenile detention facility with fences rather than a welcoming and happier place is still damning against our country. It's also missing the point that it's a common lie that Trump just continued a policy or practice that took place under Obama, therefore he's not any worse. The point wasn't to condemn or condone Obama's behavior, it was to correct a falsehood. I sure wish people would stop lying about poo poo like that! It sure would make the thread nicer to not have to debunk the same garbage over and over.
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Nov 9, 2018 08:01
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Corky Romanovsky posted:These things largely existed under Obama; as such, it is not unthinkable that they wouldn't have continued under Clinton. The operation of the camps (and even of ICE in general) was substantively different in more than a number of ways which made Miller's abduction pogrom-lite such a fantastically absurd and vile new thing. It is not unthinkable that what Obama was doing would not continue, but what was happening under Obama is not what happened under Trump. You have to ignore major substantive differences to have that kind of cross-over. And the abduction strategy is just a microcosm, a singular example of something that "this probably wouldn't have happened if trump hadn't won." It is one of potentially hundreds. Clinton would not have put two ungodly corporatist federalist originalists on the supreme court for us to deal with until we ourselves are senior citizens, there would not have been Muslim Ban take one, two, or (the successful) 3, the FCC wouldn't have been handed over to a corrupt clown, the nation's environmental regulation wouldn't have been handed over to blatant agents of regulatory capture. I have not forgotten who is in charge of our educational system, or what she has done. I have not forgotten about Pruitt. I have not forgotten about Housing and Urban Development. What has happened in Puerto Rico. Clinton would have come with all of her own problems and likely would have allowed the Republicans to engage in their capricious patterns well enough that this election would have been a hell of a crush for the democrats instead, and the subject inspires a lot of questions of what would have been different. But to subscribe to peter's assertion as written, that 'things would be just as bad under hillary' -- it's farcical imagineering of the actual differences that would be at play.
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Nov 9, 2018 08:01
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Lemming posted:It's also missing the point that it's a common lie that Trump just continued a policy or practice that took place under Obama, therefore he's not any worse. The point wasn't to condemn or condone Obama's behavior, it was to correct a falsehood. I sure wish people would stop lying about poo poo like that! It sure would make the thread nicer to not have to debunk the same garbage over and over. Yes, I understood that now. Trump's policies are clearly an escalation of the system and broadening of detention policy to serve an explicitly white nationalist agenda, I think that should be obvious to any reasonable observer. I think that the fact that the infrastructure and institutions already existed for Trump to do this is still damning and a valid critique to make, but he's absolutely made things exponentially worse than they were under Obama in terms of who is being deported and how they are treated.
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Nov 9, 2018 08:03
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