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lol, what? So last county in doesn't get counted? Is this the new rule? Last county finished counting in any election doesn't count? That's... a take.
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Nov 9, 2018 08:04
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Z. Autobahn posted:Also the huge nationwide emboldening of Nazis would not have happened, which is kind of a big deal. Trumpism would've been rebuked as a losing strategy, and a sizable wing of the Republican Party would be pushing center rather than right. We can argue how out in the open they would be but The Nazis have been a growing problem for awhile. After Obama was elected White Supremacist recruitment exploded and if I remember didn't drop at all the entire time he was in office. A female Democrat is almost as bad as a Black Man because Nazis only respect women that know their place. Bush and his admin purposefully gave the OK to leave them relatively unmolested. I'm not saying they would be having rallies in the streets but we'd still have these insurgents shooting people, making threats, and probably mailing bombs, driving recruitment on 4chan and Reddit, attempts to undermine and infiltrate institutions. If anything, more people are aware of Neo Nazi dog whistles, how Nazis operate, who the key people in the movements are. All of which have been out there for awhile but hadn't even cared to learn about before.
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Nov 9, 2018 08:04
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Obama’s immigration policy was horrific. It’s even worse under Trump but it’s not like people should be pining for a return to the Obama days. The lovely thing about the #Resistance is that it was nowhere to be found when Obama’s DHS was ramping up deportations to record levels, keeping undocumented immigrants in detention centers indefinitely, and systematically beating and sexually abusing their captives. Hopefully it decides to stick around the next time a Dem is in office. https://www.aclu.org/blog/immigrants-rights/ice-and-border-patrol-abuses/border-patrol-was-monstrous-under-obama-imagine
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Nov 9, 2018 08:08
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1glitch0 posted:lol, what? So last county in doesn't get counted? Is this the new rule? Last county finished counting in any election doesn't count? That's... a take. Republicans don't have any principles. The Republican is ahead, therefore no additional votes should be counted.
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Nov 9, 2018 08:09
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luv 2 get droned by my president (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 9, 2018 08:15
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Peter Daou Bundy posted:Yeah a 3rd term continuation of the Obama presidency would be ~slightly ~ better but he still was a war criminal who destroyed the Middle East , and Hillary would be a continuation of that . It will take somebody like AOC who actually gives a poo poo to see any change, not neoliberalism . You...you do know that an actual president needs to know things right? AOC is woefully ignorant on a lot of important issues.
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Nov 9, 2018 08:18
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theflyingorc posted:Do you not understand that this was temporary due to a larger surge of unaccompanied minors, not deliberate cruelty You can go explain to a 3 year old they're locked in cage due to a large surge in United States prisoners and not deliberate cruelty. Much like I'm sure all those dead people at a droned wedding party will be happy to know they're in pieces because it was accidental collateral damage and not deliberate cruelty. I'll let you give all of them the good news.
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Nov 9, 2018 08:20
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Kavros posted:so many extraordinarily direct and formerly incomprehensible acts of mindbending executive cruelty and corruption have taken place in the last two years alone that I cannot believe you can subscribe to this notion, unless I am completely misunderstanding what you are saying here. I'll bet Hillary would have mocked all our allies, kicked off pointless trade wars that gently caress ourselves and would make a speech so dumb the UN had to struggle to hold back the laughter. All while answering the question "Do you condemn Nazis" with "very fine people on both sides"
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Nov 9, 2018 08:24
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CelestialScribe posted:You...you do know that an actual president needs to know things right? This is demonstrably false. As proof, I offer up every Republican president for the last 30 years. You're right that AOC is significantly less knowledgeable on multiple issues than other, more experienced, congresspersons. However, I think she has a decent philosophy and if she surrounds herself with competent advisors she can make reasonable choices which actually help people, rather than enriching the rich and terrorizing anyone darker than a sheet of paper. I'll take her ignorance combined with a decent philosophy over experience coupled with either callousness or corruption any day. Besides, she isn't eligible to be president and won't be in 2020, so the point is moot. By the time she might choose to run, she will have years of experience.
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Nov 9, 2018 08:24
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1glitch0 posted:You can go explain to a 3 year old they're locked in cage due to a large surge in United States prisoners and not deliberate cruelty. Again, they sucked, and more should have been done to improve things, but they're extremely loving different problems
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Nov 9, 2018 08:24
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1glitch0 posted:You can go explain to a 3 year old they're locked in cage due to a large surge in United States prisoners and not deliberate cruelty. Who are you arguing against? Nobody here argued that what happened under Obama was good, people were debunking the lie that Obama had an intentional child separation program like Trump has instituted. Someone saying Trump is demonstrably worse than Obama doesn't mean that they're saying everything Obama did was good or fine.
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Nov 9, 2018 08:25
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CelestialScribe posted:You...you do know that an actual president needs to know things right? "Knowing things" is demonstrably not a requirement to be President in tyool 2018 and AOC is at least as competent as about half the people that have held the office in the last 100 years and she's never been elected to anything before. But good job going immediately down the "lol the woman of color is just so dumb" route my dude.
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Nov 9, 2018 08:26
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The cage is the actual new thing, Obama ripped children away from families because that way he was allowed to keep their families in cages for long enough to keep them from getting immigration lawyers.
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Nov 9, 2018 08:26
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Mr Interweb posted:
Ban him if she wins too.
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Nov 9, 2018 08:27
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Lightning Knight posted:The fact that they're being effectively housed in a juvenile detention facility with fences rather than a welcoming and happier place is still damning against our country.  yes, every recent president has made our immigration laws worse. clinton allowed immigrants to be deported for minor offenses, dubya created ice and the modern deportation machinery while scaling up deportations, under obama subcontracting detainees out to private companies (and scaling up deportations), while trump adopted splitting up families and once again scaled up deportations. you shouldn't blame just trump, or just obama for this horror; it has been a deliberate policy of the us since as far back as the chinese exclusion act.
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Nov 9, 2018 08:30
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reignonyourparade posted:The cage is the actual new thing, Obama ripped children away from families because that way he was allowed to keep their families in cages for long enough to keep them from getting immigration lawyers. No, you have this backward. He kept the families detained together, then the courts determined that he couldn't keep kids detained for that long, so then he released the families together, rather than release the kids and detain the parents. https://www.vox.com/2018/6/21/17488458/obama-immigration-policy-family-separation-border
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Nov 9, 2018 08:31
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Lemming posted:Who are you arguing against? Nobody here argued that what happened under Obama was good, people were debunking the lie that Obama had an intentional child separation program like Trump has instituted. No one was arguing that Trump's poo poo is exactly the same as Obama's. You are becoming distracted by imaginary butterflies.
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Nov 9, 2018 08:31
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Corky Romanovsky posted:No one was arguing that Trump's poo poo is exactly the same as Obama's. You are becoming distracted by imaginary butterflies. Peter Daou Bundy posted:the economy would be doing gently caress all under hillary, just like trump, because they are both neoliberals. hillary would not close the child camps, just like obama, the deporter in chief, did not. things would be just as bad under hillary, but with more decorum. hurray, i guess. This was the literal post that started this discussion.
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Nov 9, 2018 08:34
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theflyingorc posted:The cages are the least problematic part of Trump's policy. The ripping away from parents is dozens of times more damaging then poor facilities. quote:In July 2012, two undocumented immigrants in Florida turned themselves in to police, with the expectation that they would be transported to and housed in GEO's Broward Transitional Center, a 720-bed facility in Pompano Beach, Florida, that holds immigration detainees.[36] It is the only privately owned immigration detention center in Florida.[37] The pair intended to report firsthand on the conditions inside the facility, as many accounts in the immigrant community reported substandard conditions.[38] The pair reported "substandard or callous medical care, including a woman taken for ovarian surgery and returned the same day, still bleeding, to her cell, and a man who urinated blood for days but was not taken to see a doctor." the egregious conditions in the cages in for-profit detention centers are just as problematic as the family separations. conditions have only gotten worse under trump, but those abuses, and the cases where young children are being forcibly administered multiple anti-psychotic drugs to stop them from crying, originiated in the obama era.
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Nov 9, 2018 08:36
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Kavros posted:The operation of the camps (and even of ICE in general) was substantively different in more than a number of ways which made Miller's abduction pogrom-lite such a fantastically absurd and vile new thing. It is not unthinkable that what Obama was doing would not continue, but what was happening under Obama is not what happened under Trump. You have to ignore major substantive differences to have that kind of cross-over.
MSDOS KAPITAL fucked around with this message at 08:44 on Nov 9, 2018 |
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Nov 9, 2018 08:41
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" I just ignore. Make sure they never retake power! And if they do, lovely courts only during Republican control is better than lovely courts always. We can keep that game up until judicial appointments become a de facto jobs program, for all I care.
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Lightning Knight posted:"Knowing things" is demonstrably not a requirement to be President in tyool 2018 and AOC is at least as competent as about half the people that have held the office in the last 100 years and she's never been elected to anything before. But good job going immediately down the "lol the woman of color is just so dumb" route my dude. Where does the "AOC is woefully ignorant" line of thought come from besides that one time she said "unemployment" when talking about underemployment? Lycus fucked around with this message at 08:49 on Nov 9, 2018 |
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Nov 9, 2018 08:42
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His "career" in the Marines. Did they expect this guy to be well on his way to making full bird colonel or something despite enlisting out of high school?
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Nov 9, 2018 08:43
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Lemming posted:Who are you arguing against? Nobody here argued that what happened under Obama was good, people were debunking the lie that Obama had an intentional child separation program like Trump has instituted. My point is that intention doesn't matter to the victims, which is why I brought up the drone attacks as well. I don't care if Obama had an intentional child separation policy. I care that children were and are in cages. It makes absolutely zero difference what was in the politician's heart or what you think you saw in their soul. The results are the results. "We have to put babies in cages because, well, we're just so overwhelmed, gosh darn it!" and "We have to put babies in cages because I'm a dick!" have no real world difference in the situation, which is: babies in cages. Lightning Knight posted:"Knowing things" is demonstrably not a requirement to be President in tyool 2018 and AOC is at least as competent as about half the people that have held the office in the last 100 years and she's never been elected to anything before. But good job going immediately down the "lol the woman of color is just so dumb" route my dude. It is fun watching the cognitive dissonance of people who say we need more women and people of color and millennials to be in power and then a young woman of color goes from a bartender to the house in a year and suddenly people are like, "Well, what does she know!?" I am absolutely convinced AOC's perspective on the world is much more aligned with mine than another 60 year old who have been listening to think tanks since prep school.
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Nov 9, 2018 08:46
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If Democrats made a deal with North Korea they would have been crucified in the media by both the right, for being soft pansy sissies, and by the left, since NK would still be a primal totalitarian hermit state. When Republicans do it though, well at least they aren’t torturing and sex trafficking asylum seeking children to satisfy neo -Nazis.
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Nov 9, 2018 08:49
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Stereotype posted:If Democrats made a deal with North Korea they would have been crucified in the media by both the right, for being soft pansy sissies, and by the left, since NK would still be a primal totalitarian hermit state. LOL, what? The left would absolutely back disarmament talks and agreements with North Korea.
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Nov 9, 2018 08:52
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:I must be the only person on this forum who honestly doesn't give a gently caress about the courts, for a couple reasons: Without going too in depth to the rest of your position, it could also just be said "Congress can just remake the presidency at a whim. They have impeachment powers, they have full control over who gets to be president." It's one thing to say what congress can do about the supreme court, but the reality of the situation makes for a much less trivial issue regarding Trump's appointments. There are circumstances that can come about to let future congress alter the course of the supreme court, but there's enough inertia and present conditional reality that means that Gorsuch and Kavanaugh are bad in a way which we have theories about how to undo, but which may not come to fruition, and the situation is one that is better not having come about in the first place. Which I contest related to the larger absurdism about if things would have been "the same" under Clinton.
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Nov 9, 2018 08:53
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1glitch0 posted:It is fun watching the cognitive dissonance of people who say we need more women and people of color and millennials to be in power and then a young woman of color goes from a bartender to the house in a year and suddenly people are like, "Well, what does she know!?" I am absolutely convinced AOC's perspective on the world is much more aligned with mine than another 60 year old who have been listening to think tanks since prep school. People are stuck on the myth that politicians know what they're doing and are wise statesmen and need experience to be able to legislate. When in reality they mostly don't read the bills they sign, they get told what to think on issues by interest groups (better hope they're not evil ones!), and spend far more time campaigning than actually applying some sort of wisdom to the policy they craft. That's the system we've got and it doesn't have to be a bad one if we start picking politicians based on their values and personal leadership over the anachronistic traits of experience and lawyerly expertise. We need to be able to trust our politicians to kick out the evil lobbyists and let in the good ones. We need to be able to trust the same in their staff and thus need to trust our politicians judgement of people and leadership.
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Nov 9, 2018 08:54
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1glitch0 posted:My point is that intention doesn't matter to the victims, which is why I brought up the drone attacks as well. I don't care if Obama had an intentional child separation policy. I care that children were and are in cages. It makes absolutely zero difference what was in the politician's heart or what you think you saw in their soul. The results are the results. "We have to put babies in cages because, well, we're just so overwhelmed, gosh darn it!" and "We have to put babies in cages because I'm a dick!" have no real world difference in the situation, which is: babies in cages. Trump intentionally victimized additional people. He went out of his way to take children out of the arms of their parents and put them in cages. Trump created more victims. Equivocating the two despite a drastic difference in both scale and amount of additional suffering (since, again, Obama didn't separate families that were already together, he detained children who were sent over on their own until they could be placed with families) makes you seem like you don't understand what's going on. Again, nobody's saying that what Obama did was good or not bad, we're saying that the people who are saying that Trump isn't worse are stupid.
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Nov 9, 2018 08:56
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1glitch0 posted:It is fun watching the cognitive dissonance of people who say we need more women and people of color and millennials to be in power and then a young woman of color goes from a bartender to the house in a year and suddenly people are like, "Well, what does she know!?" I am absolutely convinced AOC's perspective on the world is much more aligned with mine than another 60 year old who have been listening to think tanks since prep school. Seriously. I'd trust any prole making an honest attempt at being president over Donald loving Trump who hasn't shown any evidence since his inauguration of learning about even one of the important issues he's woefully ignorant about.
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Nov 9, 2018 08:57
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Meanwhile, tonight in California: https://twitter.com/LauraAnthony7/status/1060711908553060352
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Nov 9, 2018 08:58
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Politicians do generally self-select (and/or are selected in by the system) for people who can psychologically tolerate a lot of high stress personal bargaining, have dogged fixation on policy concepts. In a lot of ways a politician's primary skillset is to make deals. Not in legislation, but as if you were running a personal business, gladhanding your way to financing your next election or assured sinecure, and making sure not to piss your way into a pair of concrete shoes of the metaphorical and literal kind. So they tend to know some things. We just hate the outcome of that they play democracy like a personal finance game.
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Nov 9, 2018 08:59
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Lightning Knight posted:"Knowing things" is demonstrably not a requirement to be President in tyool 2018 and AOC is at least as competent as about half the people that have held the office in the last 100 years and she's never been elected to anything before. But good job going immediately down the "lol the woman of color is just so dumb" route my dude. I don't really give a gently caress if it isn't a requirement, it should be a requirement, and the moment we stop holding ourselves to that standard is the moment we end up with a president who champions ignorance over knowledge. Sound familiar? It's good, on the whole, that AOC is elected to congress but Dems need shut the gently caress up about her becoming president one day. She hasn't even proven herself capable of a legislative accomplishment yet, let alone specialist knowledge in any specific policy area. Same with Beto - who loving lost.
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Nov 9, 2018 09:01
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CelestialScribe posted:I don't really give a gently caress if it isn't a requirement, it should be a requirement, and the moment we stop holding ourselves to that standard is the moment we end up with a president who champions ignorance over knowledge. Sound familiar? There's a pretty huge difference between someone who doesn't know stuff but is willing to learn, and someone who is fundamentally incurious.
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Nov 9, 2018 09:03
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CelestialScribe posted:I don't really give a gently caress if it isn't a requirement, it should be a requirement, and the moment we stop holding ourselves to that standard is the moment we end up with a president who champions ignorance over knowledge. Sound familiar? Why? What advantage does this gain us? How did Obama's two years in the senate change help him face his 8 years of Republican obstruction? Didn't seem to help him much there. What specific kind of skills do you think a future president must hold that aren't already requirements to run a grassroots campaign? AOC can run a meeting. She can delegate. She can listen to multiple experts and pick a side. She's pro-science and pro-knowledge, so that throws out your slippery slope to "championing ignorance" argument. Besides, lots of experienced politicians who champion ignorance, so its not even like political experience would guard against that threat.
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Nov 9, 2018 09:06
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Majorian posted:There's a pretty huge difference between someone who doesn't know stuff but is willing to learn, and someone who is fundamentally incurious. No doubt, not suggesting there isn't a huge difference. That doesn't mean ignorance with good intentions is a virtue. The presidency shouldn't go to someone who has good intentions. It should go to someone who actually has a track record, which AOC doesn't have. Maybe one day she will, and maybe one day she'll speak with authority on these issues after time in Congress. At that point I'd be happy to see her run for president. But not now, especially not when she hasn't even done anything. CelestialScribe fucked around with this message at 09:08 on Nov 9, 2018 |
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Nov 9, 2018 09:06
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CelestialScribe posted:No doubt, not suggesting there isn't a huge difference. Well, but you're treating AOC's (comparatively few) examples of ignorance like they're some sort of super-damning, awful thing. You really seem like you hold a grudge against her or something, and it's pretty unseemly.
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Nov 9, 2018 09:08
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Majorian posted:There's a pretty huge difference between someone who doesn't know stuff but is willing to learn, and someone who is fundamentally incurious. The absolute most important feature of a successful president is filling their administration with competent experts and knowing who to listen to and when, which Trump has also fundamentally failed at.
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Nov 9, 2018 09:08
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Majorian posted:Well, but you're treating AOC's (comparatively few) examples of ignorance like they're some sort of super-damning, awful thing. You really seem like you hold a grudge against her or something, and it's pretty unseemly. Only in the context of people saying - now - that she should be president.
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Nov 9, 2018 09:09
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CelestialScribe posted:No doubt, not suggesting there isn't a huge difference. But that's the whole point. Most politicians are ignorant of the facts of everyday life that AOC knows and that's far more valuable than her having some arcane knowledge that its a staffer's job to know anyway. Knowledge of the human condition is far more valuable in a politician than knowledge of the law. CelestialScribe posted:Only in the context of people saying - now - that she should be president. Good news, no one is saying she's going to run in 2020.
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Nov 9, 2018 09:09
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CelestialScribe posted:Only in the context of people saying - now - that she should be president. No one is saying that she should run for president anytime soon. She's not eligible. Stop it.
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Nov 9, 2018 09:10
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