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when will those mean internet people learn that the current system is great for me, i mean, just look at the vietnam war! - a smart guy Here's a hint friend: the reason we dislike the democrats is because they don't do anything. Obama could've appointed someone to the supreme court, but didn't because optics. They could've implemented single-payer, but instead got argued down to the Heritage Foundation's loving take. Their reforms are trying to polish the right wing's ideas. When it's genocide or letting marginalized people live arguing your way down to "some state murder is ok" isn't the right thing to do. And millennials, for whatever dumb reason, are trying to do the right thing in a system that makes doing that dangerous. You might want to reconsider your ability to feel empathy and be morally driven. Vote madam guillotine 2020. e: page snipe, dumb argument with nerds itt
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Nov 10, 2018 03:08
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The greatest policy success of the Democratic party in the last thirty years was either destroying welfare and immiserating millions of Americans for no reason, or a subsidy worth trillions to a vestigial industry that shouldn't exist. If they're better than Republicans, it's by the thinnest of margins.
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Nov 10, 2018 03:13
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Biomute posted:I know some Pod Save America fans, even count them as friends, and their political views definitely deserve condemnation. There is no way they will ever come around, so I'm not sure what kind of bridge-building you're looking for. We might think they're everything from annoying to willful lapdogs for the right, but they believe we're authoritarians coming for their wealth and liberty. And by abandoning and endlessly demonizing PSA liberals do you think you'll achieve 50.1% of the electorate? Without that you can't do poo poo and slide closer to hell world. Be pragmatic. Conservatives don't give a poo poo about specifics and nuance because they correctly identify the alternative.
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Nov 10, 2018 03:14
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KingNastidon posted:And by abandoning and endlessly demonizing PSA liberals do you think you'll achieve 50.1% of the electorate? Without that you can't do poo poo and slide closer to hell world. Trying to get to 50.1% has been what lead us to hellworld. We're already in it. I've had my civil liberties dangled on a string for the past year, and it's been because of PSA liberals. More to the point, the system is no longer fair -- the popular vote means nothing in the era of gerrymandering and organized voter suppression. Nuance keeps ratcheting the overton window to the right, just like it always has. There is nothing to do in the democratic party's system -- and I used to run a (very small) part of it. Make stupid jokes, shoot for popular vote ballot initiatives, punch nazis and gently caress bosses. Your way is dead, and has been since the 70's at the most optimistic.
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Nov 10, 2018 03:21
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KingNastidon posted:And by abandoning and endlessly demonizing PSA liberals do you think you'll achieve 50.1% of the electorate? Without that you can't do poo poo and slide closer to hell world. What do you expect to achieve with a 50.1% majority achieved by compromise? Obama had two terms and achieved nothing of note, at least compared to all the harm he did. You can't radicalize people by telling them that what they already believe is okay and good. I believe that people only change their views if they're convinced that they have something to gain by doing so, or when the costs of continuing to believe as they do become too great. If we're going to dismantle the current norms then people need to be exposed to people who espouse different ones and denounce the current ones. People they look up to, friend and family.
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Nov 10, 2018 03:27
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KingNastidon posted:And by abandoning and endlessly demonizing PSA liberals do you think you'll achieve 50.1% of the electorate? Without that you can't do poo poo and slide closer to hell world. Republicans embraced their "extremeist fringe" and made a platform that alienated 2/3rds of the country but gave them near-total political power. I keep forgetting America isn't >= 50% Conservative because those guys did such a good job winning the game. We make fun of never-Trumpers because their party is controlled by more ideologically pure members. The Democratic party is dominated by mediocre "never-Bernies" and it's obvious why they can't and won't accomplish anything politically.
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Nov 10, 2018 03:31
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T-man posted:Trying to get to 50.1% has been what lead us to hellworld. We're already in it. I've had my civil liberties dangled on a string for the past year, and it's been because of PSA liberals. And your life would be better off brow-beating the PSA listeners over ideological purity such that they don't vote or vote for the other party? The Democratic Party can be comprised of more leftist folks without making GBS threads on the necessary middle to achieve real-world results. As much as you want to bemoan centrist Libs and Pelosi becoming speaker again, the lived reality is that Democrats control the house and have significant power. Felix's MGS memes isn't what made it happen. Biomute posted:I believe that people only change their views if they're convinced that they have something to gain by doing so, or when the costs of continuing to believe as they do become too great. If we're going to dismantle the current norms then people need to be exposed to people who espouse different ones and denounce the current ones. People they look up to, friend and family. I agree. People facing significant real-world impacts on their livelihood is the best way to motivate political action. I just happen to believe threatening violent, socialist revolution against the capitalist class will cause more affluent Democratic voters to defect than it'll cause Alabama evangelicals to decide gay marriage is sweet, abortion is dope, and switch to the other side. I'd love single payer, universal healthcare myself -- but feel that expanding Medicare to those 50+ would be a lot harder politically to take away than if it was immediately expanded to everyone, including them dastardly anchor babies and ever-breeding blacks. Obama's problem was that he thought small, technocratic wins would be appreciated and then expanded upon rather than incremental, easy to understand improvements to existing, well-liked programs. Analytic Engine posted:Republicans embraced their "extremeist fringe" and made a platform that alienated 2/3rds of the country but gave them near-total political power. I keep forgetting America isn't >= 50% Conservative because those guys did such a good job winning the game. We make fun of never-Trumpers because their party is controlled by more ideologically pure members. The Democratic party is dominated by mediocre "never-Bernies" and it's obvious why they can't and won't accomplish anything politically. Their moderates just don't have the balls to say the quiet part out loud. Their base is much more uniform than the Democratic Party base and they know what they're voting for. The Democratic Party has the problem of trying to align many small groups with vastly different political stances. This ranges from the Manhattan/San Francisco/Seattle "I think Amazon and Facebook are just great, but my Cornell professor said climate change was real and LGBTQ equality is a must" to "Burn Harvard to the ground and execute everyone earning over $100k a year." KingNastidon fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Nov 10, 2018 |
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Nov 10, 2018 04:09
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y'all gay
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Nov 10, 2018 04:11
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KingNastidon posted:The Democratic Party can be comprised of more leftist folks without making GBS threads on the necessary middle to achieve real-world results.
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Nov 10, 2018 04:20
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Correct me if I'm wrong but I was under the impression that most people don't really have especially well-defined political idelogies Like, there is no "necessary middle" that is needed for real-world results because people who actually believe in the tenets of centrism/liberalism are a tiny minority compared to people who probably think of themselves as "somewhere in the middle" because it instinctually seems more reasonable to be "in the middle" but would also be totally okay with left-wing policies that actually made their lives better
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Nov 10, 2018 04:29
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Terrorist Fistbump posted:Ah cool, the limits of your political imagination were just revealed Yup, you got me. After spending a lot of time among fairly boring, rich, white upper class professionals in NJ, San Diego, San Francisco, and Seattle that overwhelmingly vote Democratic I've come to find out that most people don't desire radical change on the level of SA posters or Chapo Trap House listeners. Hopefully not that hot of a take for anyone that's talked politics with people outside of their immediate social circle. And coming from rural upstate NY, I don't think that these rush limbaugh listening, gun-loving, racist chuds are gonna become your new pro-socialist voting base.. But hey, keep thinking that CTH politics are mainstream rather than a useful and funny prod from the left.
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Nov 10, 2018 04:31
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KingNastidon posted:Yup, you got me. After spending a lot of time among fairly boring, rich, white upper class professionals in NJ, San Diego, San Francisco, and Seattle ... most people I think there's something here...
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Nov 10, 2018 04:32
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KingNastidon posted:And your life would be better off brow-beating the PSA listeners over ideological purity such that they don't vote or vote for the other party? The Democratic Party can be comprised of more leftist folks without making GBS threads on the necessary middle to achieve real-world results. As much as you want to bemoan centrist Libs and Pelosi becoming speaker again, the lived reality is that Democrats control the house and have significant power. Felix's MGS memes isn't what made it happen. You've responded to two lines of what I've written, out of a nerdpile of arguments. And, furthermore, if someone is only voting center-right (as the Democratic party is, globally speaking) because I didn't ~hurt their feelings~ I don't really want them on my side. Doing the right thing is good, as I've discussed before, and if you're only doing it to score points with other people I don't want your "help" at all. And you notice how there are more and more radical leftists joining the party, and more people coming to it because of those leftists? It's not the blue-dogs or Nancy Pelosi types who are getting turnout and success. The left got massively more popular when the recession hit and OWS became a phenomenon, and we're still here and still organizing and still dying. The only possible way you can honestly believe the democrats are helping is either extreme privileged ignorance or willful denial and cowardice. Real world results don't help when the results are more drone strikes, more union busting, less worker protection and the continual expansion of capital and it's brother imperialism. An Apple A Gay posted:y'all gay I'm so gay I'm a trans lesbian and like anime. I Before E posted:I think there's something here... Look, all my rich friends think I'm right, so people must love the system we live in. You're the kind of spoiled rich idiot that made me want to die yesterday. T-man fucked around with this message at 04:36 on Nov 10, 2018 |
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Nov 10, 2018 04:33
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real world results lol, those real world "results" gave you donald trump, that's what those "results" did stop trying to wonk your way out of a sociopolitical problem, a tax credit isn't gonna do poo poo
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Nov 10, 2018 04:34
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those guys overwhelming vote Democratic because the Democratic party transformed themselves in the mid-late 20th century with the express purpose of courting boring, rich, upper class professionals, I hope this helps explain their voting habits
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Nov 10, 2018 04:37
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An Apple A Gay posted:y'all gay I'm so gay, I probably think this post is about me
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Nov 10, 2018 04:37
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it's not really 'making GBS threads on' so much as it is 'not supporting'. Like, yea I agree we don't need to horse whip Joe Manchin in the public square I guess but there's nothing 'making GBS threads on' about just saying 'yea if you don't want to support a progressive agenda we don't actually want you' that's just, ya know, having an actual ideology?
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Nov 10, 2018 04:38
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For the record I can't stand PSA and am not a moderate or liberal. "Go listen to Pod Save America" is just a cheap one-liner from someone too stupid to understand that you can not like one or two aspects of something but still agree with the message and delivery the other 95% of the time. "LOL it ruled" and "Go watch CNN" we're already taken so Phone picked that one. The people who decide that anyone who criticizes Chapo in any way must not be on the team have more in common with the #stillwithher than they realize.
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Nov 10, 2018 04:40
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sexpig by night posted:it's not really 'making GBS threads on' so much as it is 'not supporting'. Like, yea I agree we don't need to horse whip Joe Manchin in the public square I guess but there's nothing 'making GBS threads on' about just saying 'yea if you don't want to support a progressive agenda we don't actually want you' that's just, ya know, having an actual ideology? if you would vote Republican (or abstain, I guess) because loving Medicare for All or Let's Close Gitmo And Stop Being At War In As Many Countries As Possible are too radical for you then we absolutely do not want you
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Nov 10, 2018 04:41
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fortunately as someone who lives in a very Republican place and is legally barred from campaigning because of his job, I am spared from difficult questions like "what do we do when the social democrats clash with the socialists"
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Nov 10, 2018 04:42
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Human Tornada posted:For the record I can't stand PSA and am not a moderate or liberal. I don't give a poo poo about Chapo, or really any particular person or group. I just want the world to stop sucking more than it has to. I studied philosophy for years to make the world a better place, and all I really want is to wait out the universe and die stoned, fed, and housed. There is no ethics, no standards, nothing beyond the stupid absurdity of life. So let's make that life better for every other rear end in a top hat.
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Nov 10, 2018 04:47
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I Before E posted:I think there's something here... Yes, I'm acknowledging my bias given who I interact with on a day to day basis. That said, hopefully people posting for guillotines on the SA forums or twitter could do the same. How many Democratic voting coworkers have you felt comfortable enough to introduce CTH to? Who are these people and how much influence, money or otherwise, do they have on the political discourse? T-man posted:The left got massively more popular when the recession hit and OWS became a phenomenon, and we're still here and still organizing and still dying. The only possible way you can honestly believe the democrats are helping is either extreme privileged ignorance or willful denial and cowardice. Real world results don't help when the results are more drone strikes, more union busting, less worker protection and the continual expansion of capital and it's brother imperialism. Hmm...remind me how the congressional elections went following OWS? How did the left/liberal party do electorally? Surely we could have won over so many moderates and tea party folk if only we had nationalized the banks and forgiven mortgage payments for people that probably shouldn't have received them (not the individual's fault!) in the first place based on credit worthiness & income. It's not like subsequent elections were largely determined based on spite and racial grievances and such programs would have been ignored.
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Nov 10, 2018 04:52
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DoubleDonut posted:if you would vote Republican (or abstain, I guess) because loving Medicare for All or Let's Close Gitmo And Stop Being At War In As Many Countries As Possible are too radical for you then we absolutely do not want you Word.
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Nov 10, 2018 04:55
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KingNastidon posted:Yes, I'm acknowledging my bias given who I interact with on a day to day basis. That said, hopefully people posting for guillotines on the SA forums or twitter could do the same. How many Democratic voting coworkers have you felt comfortable enough to introduce CTH to? Who are these people and how much influence, money or otherwise, do they have on the political discourse? name one left-wing Congressional policy the Democratic party implemented or attempted to implement after OWS like, I'm not sure "the milquetoast center-right party that made 'let's compromise with white supremacists' a large part of its platform got owned" is as scathing a burn against the left as you think it is DoubleDonut fucked around with this message at 05:00 on Nov 10, 2018 |
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Nov 10, 2018 04:58
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DoubleDonut posted:name one left-wing Congressional policy the Democratic party implemented or attempted to implement after OWS Name one that you think would have been politically popular such that it would have resulted in political wins for the left/liberal Democratic party in 2010/2012. Given everything that you know now and how stupid/reactionary America is, not what you wish America could be. KingNastidon fucked around with this message at 05:10 on Nov 10, 2018 |
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Nov 10, 2018 05:05
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KingNastidon posted:Name one that you think would have been politically popular such that it would have resulted in political wins for the left/liberal Democratic party in 2010/2012. Given everything that you know now and how stupid/reactionary America is, not what you wish America was. Oh, you're the "we're gonna have to get a LOT more racist" dude, aren't you
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Nov 10, 2018 05:09
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https://twitter.com/BigGucciKrow/status/1061027025824161792
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Nov 10, 2018 05:11
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Like I'm not gonna look into a crystal ball and figure out a hypothetical plan that would make the Democrats win (also no matter what I say you'll tell me people are too racist to want that), but in actual reality where we all live, the Democrats lost a huge amount of political power during a time when they were absolutely determined to compromise with Republicans and continue to enforce centrist policies and imperialism
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Nov 10, 2018 05:15
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KingNastidon posted:Name one that you think would have been politically popular such that it would have resulted in political wins for the left/liberal Democratic party in 2010/2012. Given everything that you know now and how stupid/reactionary America is, not what you wish America could be. Friend you would've failed sociology 101 at my university by this point, maybe you should take what we've all said to you under consideration. You're not Galileo fighting the Catholic Church here.
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Nov 10, 2018 05:16
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If we're talking about "what I know about how America is," I've lived in rural North Carolina for almost my entire life and the one Democratic presidential candidate I've ever heard anyone around here actually express any respect or enthusiasm at all was Bernie Sanders I work around law enforcement a lot and had multiple cops tell me that they respected Bernie because he seemed like he was actually legitimate, which was absolutely not something they ever had to say about Bill Clinton or John Kerry or Al Gore, and in some cases even Donald Trump (I'm specifically leaving HRC and Obama out of this sentence because I'm trying to avoid 'they're just sexist/racist' as a response to this point) Would that have translated into actual votes? I have no idea. But I think if some of the most conservative people imaginable (white rural southern cops) can say they at least respect the most left-wing Presidential candidate in decades that's probably a good sign for all the swing voters and (more importantly) non-voters that are necessary if you want to win against people who vote straight ticket republican in every election
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Nov 10, 2018 05:24
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I'm always amazed at people who can still carry water for the "politically realistic" camp after 2016.
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Nov 10, 2018 05:37
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If you consider yourself politically aware and weren't radicalized by the events of the last two decades, then you're either a moron or have some kind of cynical interest in the status quo. Either way, you can be written off and mocked. Electoralism, especially the lesser-evil kind, can never save us. I can't remember who said it, but on one of the recent pods they claimed that most normal people don't fit neatly on an ideological line, which I think is true and why we need to build a mass movement with that huge pool of currently unengaged people, not DNC lanyard dicks. WorkerThread fucked around with this message at 05:41 on Nov 10, 2018 |
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Nov 10, 2018 05:39
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DoubleDonut posted:Oh, you're the "we're gonna have to get a LOT more racist" dude, aren't you Nope, just being honest who our electorate is. We don't have to be racist, but we should be honest about the Chapo viewpoint and its reach. It's not broadly popular and won't be anytime soon. It's at best a sincere, funny, and relatable cudgel of the Democratic Party from the left. If you think socialism's problem in the US is not due to the electorate and rather its leaders, go run for office. I look forward to your vlogs as you tour the rural adirondacks explaining the joys of gun-free socialism and downstate rule. I'm really confident that you giving a passionate 10 minute speech on health outcomes will change their voter preferences. Maybe a few well-crafted excel spreadsheets / powerpoint slides to convince them that violence and/or revolution is the only path forward. T-man posted:Friend you would've failed sociology 101 at my university by this point, maybe you should take what we've all said to you under consideration. You're not Galileo fighting the Catholic Church here. Yeah, the voters we're discussing cares whether anyone passed sociology 101 at your university. Trump was elected to be president. No one gives a poo poo.
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Nov 10, 2018 05:43
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KingNastidon posted:Yup, you got me. After spending a lot of time among fairly boring, rich, white upper class professionals in NJ, San Diego, San Francisco, and Seattle that overwhelmingly vote Democratic I've come to find out that most people don't desire radical change on the level of SA posters or Chapo Trap House listeners.
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Nov 10, 2018 05:44
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Nov 10, 2018 05:44
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Nov 10, 2018 05:45
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what end are you hoping to achieve by posting here
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Nov 10, 2018 05:48
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emdash posted:what end are you hoping to achieve by posting here "
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Nov 10, 2018 05:50
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KingNastidon posted:I'm really confident that you giving a passionate 10 minute speech on health outcomes will change their voter preferences. Maybe a few well-crafted excel spreadsheets / powerpoint slides to convince them that violence and/or revolution is the only path forward. Again, dude, ascribing mainstream Democrat strategies to leftists is not as good of a burn as you think it is Like, I really don't get this thing where you keep telling me "the left can't win, we need to be like Democrats" as if the Democrats have actually had a winning record over the past 40 years
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Nov 10, 2018 05:53
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End capitalism? No, more bosses!
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