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SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:If they're big enough to undercut prices putting others out of business and they treat workers like dirt, they're a trash company. You do realise that this is basically everyone, don't you? If you're saying that private companies being owned by essentially feudal lords who force employees to do anything they want under the threat of disenfranchisement is wrong, I'm absolutely with you, but pretending that Amazon is somehow the exception and not the norm is frankly naïve.
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Nov 9, 2018 19:22
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JustJeff88 posted:You do realise that this is basically everyone, don't you? If you're saying that private companies being owned by essentially feudal lords who force employees to do anything they want under the threat of disenfranchisement is wrong, I'm absolutely with you, but pretending that Amazon is somehow the exception and not the norm is frankly naïve. If you are a low-skilled (i.e. High School degree without a trade) older or younger worker, then it is objectively much better to be working for Amazon than at some Mom & Pop store. The Obama DOL found that ~40% of wage theft cases came from family-owned or independent retail and food businesses. Even though they represent only 12% of the jobs in those sectors.
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Nov 9, 2018 19:28
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Cicero posted:I don't think that's the same thing as saying they must offer lower prices on Amazon than other places, they could give each place the same price. As far as I know, it is in the EU. It's also why travel portals can't force hotels in the EU to offer the their best prices through them. Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The Obama DOL found that ~40% of wage theft cases came from family-owned or independent retail and food businesses. Even though they represent only 12% of the jobs in those sectors. If only laws could be passed to better protect workers against wage theft.
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Nov 9, 2018 19:29
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Lambert posted:If only laws could be passed to better protect workers against wage theft. There are. It's just that saying "big employer" means they treat their workers the worst is not true. America has a weird fetish for "small businesses" when they are amongst the worst labor offenders and often more expensive or painful to deal with as a consumer.
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Nov 9, 2018 19:33
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I actually want all businesses nationalized so it's not a 'big business' thing friend.
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Nov 9, 2018 19:54
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SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:I actually want all businesses nationalized so it's not a 'big business' thing friend. What would the purpose be of a government monopoly on retail stores and restaurants?
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Nov 9, 2018 19:58
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:There are. There aren't in my opinion, otherwise wage theft wouldn't be so common. Much more could be done. And I didn't mean to disagree with your premise, plenty of small businesses are lovely places to work at.
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Nov 9, 2018 20:02
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Lambert posted:There aren't in my opinion, otherwise wage theft wouldn't be so common. Much more could be done. There are already pretty broad wage theft laws on the books. It is just difficult to enforce them, because they rely on people reporting them. Lots of people think "Well, it was just an hour or so and I don't want to lose this job." Other than auditing every business in America by having someone come and monitor shifts, there isn't a way to 100% enforce it. It's also illegal to show NFL games in public without the express consent of the NFL and its partner TV networks. Some people get in trouble for that, but a massive amount don't because nobody reports it and it is very difficult to enforce.
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Nov 9, 2018 20:18
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:What would the purpose be of a government monopoly on retail stores and restaurants? Equal access to this season's trendy fashions.
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Nov 9, 2018 20:18
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:There are already pretty broad wage theft laws on the books. It is just difficult to enforce them, because they rely on people reporting them. Lots of people think "Well, it was just an hour or so and I don't want to lose this job." Other than auditing every business in America by having someone come and monitor shifts, there isn't a way to 100% enforce it. So why do other countries not have such severe problems with wage theft? Or are you saying that worker protection laws would need to be much stronger.
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Nov 9, 2018 20:21
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Lambert posted:But people do get mad at companies for having local monopolies as well as online monopolies. It's just that TV retail sales don't matter, that's why nobody cares about their monopoly. It doesn't hurt consumers in any meaningful way. QVC also isn't a monopoly because the space they operate in "products sold on tv" isn't dominated by basic cable home shopping channels, it's dominated by beer on Sundays.
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Nov 9, 2018 20:52
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Lambert posted:So why do other countries not have such severe problems with wage theft? Or are you saying that worker protection laws would need to be much stronger. Why do you think they don't? Many of them actually have worse wage theft problems than the U.S. quote:Wage theft is an issue frequently raised in the US. But in Europe, it gets scant publicity and is often seen as just a problem for illegal migrants. But in the UK, which has possibly the most lax labor laws in Europe, the issue is affecting a much wider group of workers. https://www.dw.com/en/world-in-progress-uk-wage-theft/av-18843422 quote:Average Textile worker paid lower in Eastern Europe than in China, report finds quote:A 2017 report by Middlesex University and Trust for London revealed that at least 2 million workers in Britain are losing an estimated £3 billion in unpaid holiday pay and wages per year. 25.9% of minimum wage workers in the U.K. have been victim to at least two instances of wage theft per month. That is even more than the 24.6% in the United States.
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Nov 9, 2018 20:57
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So there's nothing to be done, even though some European countries have more effective laws? I love right-wingers like you - everything is bad, but because somewhere else is just as ineffective at handling the problem, there's no possible solution to the problem. Lambert fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Nov 9, 2018 |
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Nov 9, 2018 21:03
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lol
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Nov 9, 2018 21:10
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those numbers are likely worse than that even, it says 1 week prior to survey. i had some tips stolen at a couple different times when i was working at a bar, just not every week
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Nov 9, 2018 21:12
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Lambert posted:So there's nothing to be done, even though some European countries have more effective laws? How is saying that a problem exists mean that nothing can be done? Some crimes are harder to enforce than other crimes. Millions of people torrent copyrighted material every day. You can make the penalty for wage theft death, but if enforcement doesn't go up, then it won't do anything. There are ways to increase enforcement and compliance. Wage theft is already illegal, so it isn't a matter of the practice not being banned.
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Nov 9, 2018 21:18
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But it's obviously a problem of enforcement being fraught with too many uncertainties. It's very likely not about the "penalty for wage theft", but about the ease of access to the court system and lack of worker protections making it easy to harass an employee that actually tries to get what's theirs. Having independent government-funded bodies that are able to assist workers in these cases would be a start, for example. And better worker protections, so they can't be fired for complaining about not getting lunch breaks. And much heavier fines for employers. And giving independent bodies the ability to sue.
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Nov 9, 2018 21:23
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There are significant barriers for plaintiffs to overcome in bringing wage theft claims, as well as inherent problems like victims of wage theft having too few resources to bring a claim and being financially insecure pressuring victims into remaining silent. Also individual claims are not profitable for attorneys so they wait for class actions Meanwhile the supreme court is wroding te right to bring class actions and upholding arbitration clauses that send victims into private courts
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Nov 9, 2018 21:29
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Oh also for the most part employers don't need to make disclosures or keep certain records so employers are given free reign to deceive their employees, manipulate tips or hours worked etc...
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Nov 9, 2018 21:36
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My wife brought a lawsuit against a former employer for wage theft. By the time she got a judgement against the owner, the company had folded and there was nothing left to pay her the $40,000 she was awarded.
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Nov 9, 2018 23:04
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Cicero posted:How exactly is Amazon's market share in online retail hurting consumers? The whole reason they've grown so big there is because consumers prefer them to other, shittier online retail sites. Hell, that's why over half of US households have a Prime subscription. They are knowingly using that market share to engage in deceptive business practices. Specifically via calculated incompetence when it comes to verifying the provenance of goods being sold through their market, and by binning the same sku from different vendors together and thus introducing counterfeit and adulterated goods into sales by vendors for whom they do fulfillment. It isn't monopolistic per se, but their overwhelming market dominance means they profit from it while maintaining plausible deniability.
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Nov 9, 2018 23:17
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I agree they have serious problems with counterfeits, but I don't see what that has to do with their market share. You need high market share to sell counterfeits? A quick glance at ebay puts that notion to rest. Trading on past positive brand consumer feelings by slowly letting things become shittier is a time-honored tradition for many brands. Just look at outlet shops or the worse version of clothes you get at Walmart.
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Nov 9, 2018 23:38
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Cicero posted:I agree they have serious problems with counterfeits, but I don't see what that has to do with their market share. You need high market share to sell counterfeits? A quick glance at ebay puts that notion to rest. Trading on past positive brand consumer feelings by slowly letting things become shittier is a time-honored tradition for many brands. Just look at outlet shops or the worse version of clothes you get at Walmart. what the hell are you talking about?
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Nov 9, 2018 23:54
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Cicero posted:Actually they're not and are not even close to a monopoly. Every time this comes up, it gets explained why it's wrong, and then a few pages later D&D forgets that discussion and reverts back to "Amazon monopoly yes". Hi please understand what dominant market power is. It doesn't require you to be a literal horizontal standard oil monopoly. It just requires you to be able to stifle competition. Amazon owns 50% of internet retail and can stomp over suppliers and competitors. They are nearly monopolistic there.
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Nov 10, 2018 01:54
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Cicero posted:I agree they have serious problems with counterfeits, but I don't see what that has to do with their market share. You need high market share to sell counterfeits? A quick glance at ebay puts that notion to rest. Trading on past positive brand consumer feelings by slowly letting things become shittier is a time-honored tradition for many brands. Just look at outlet shops or the worse version of clothes you get at Walmart. Amazon is so huge they can literally flout anti counterfeiting laws and not worry about it destroying brands that can't afford to deal with a bad actor as big as amazon. I don't understand why you can't fathom that a corporation can abuse market power
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Nov 10, 2018 01:55
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Coming back with "Amazon isn't a monopoly!" in this context is like people who push their glasses up the bridge of their nose when someone bemoans the state of democracy in the US by pointing out that the US is a republic. It's not helpful and only serves to distract from the core point that Amazon has an unfair advantage that they can continually exploit to increase that advantage further.
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Nov 10, 2018 01:57
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poo poo POST MALONE posted:Coming back with "Amazon isn't a monopoly!" in this context is like people who push their glasses up the bridge of their nose when someone bemoans the state of democracy in the US by pointing out that the US is a republic. But it's not a minor technical objection. Amazon is only 5% of retail sales in the US and is smaller than like, tesco. It's the largest single online retailer, but has yet to break even 50% so more online retail is not through amazon than is through amazon. Like that doesn't mean that you have to love them and they are sinless angels, but it does mean you are barking up the wrong tree if try and frame it as the problems with amazon lacking a competitive free market. Like everything bad isn't a monopoly. If nintendo eats a baby you don't have to construct everything through a criticism that the problem is that they hold a type of monopoly and that the solutions are that we need free market solutions by having them have a smaller percentage wise share of the market. It's just unrelated.
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Nov 10, 2018 02:15
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And if you compare it to the GDP of the US, Amazon is even less of that. So if you think about it, they don't have a dominant position anywhere. Online retail? Totally irrelevant and not it's own thing at all.
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Nov 10, 2018 12:25
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There are some many misconceptions behind the "online retail is only x% of the entire retail market and therefore Amazon's dominance doesn't matter"-argument that I wouldn't even know where to start.
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Nov 10, 2018 12:33
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MiddleOne posted:There are some many misconceptions behind the "online retail is only x% of the entire retail market and therefore Amazon's dominance doesn't matter"-argument that I wouldn't even know where to start. Please make your case. Like the poster Cicero, I don't understand why buying things online is so important that it has to be considered as its own market sector, especially since it is such a small portion of the entire retail sector. No one holds a gun to your head and forces you to buy stuff only online. If someone could expound on this, that'd be really helpful, thanks. SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:I actually want all businesses nationalized so it's not a 'big business' thing friend. Retail is one of the sectors in the economy where American Capitalism has made things great for the consumer--there is a lot of competition and choice, and retail company profit margins are pretty low. I'm not sure how state-run retail would be better for the consumer. If Amazon one day decided to raise prices 10x, people would stop buying stuff off of Amazon and go to one of the many alternatives. If you have an issue with American Capitalism, I'd think you'd find the issues elsewhere in the economy, and not in retail.
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Nov 10, 2018 13:46
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silence_kit posted:Retail is one of the sectors in the economy where American Capitalism has made things great for the consumer--there is a lot of competition and choice, and retail company profit margins are pretty low. I'm not sure how state-run retail would be better for the consumer. You are right. But focusing on "for the consumer" means you can ignore the enormous amount of waste this system produces and how that ripples into how agriculture works, which I assume to be one of that poster's gripes with this system. Lambert fucked around with this message at 14:06 on Nov 10, 2018 |
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Nov 10, 2018 14:01
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Lambert posted:You are right. But focusing on "for the consumer" means you can ignore the enormous amount of waste this system produces and how that ripples into how agriculture works, which I assume to be one of that poster's gripes with this system. Could you expound on this waste issue? I'm not seeing how a state-run retail sector would be more efficient & less wasteful, unless you want state-run retail to be run at a much much much lower quality of service, convenience, availability, etc. and at greater cost. BTW, this kind of opinion is sort of at odds with the idea that online retail is a very important market sector. I have a sneaking suspicion that if private-run retail happened to have problems with availability, price, access, etc. then the 'Retail Figure of Merit' would likely be totally different, and then we'd all be reading in this thread about how important low prices and consumer access & convenience are.
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Nov 10, 2018 14:27
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Lambert posted:And if you compare it to the GDP of the US, Amazon is even less of that. So if you think about it, they don't have a dominant position anywhere. Online retail? Totally irrelevant and not it's own thing at all. They aren't a monopoly of online retail though? They are the largest online retailer but there is tons and tons of very large competition. Why does any criticism of amazon hinge on trying to force it to be something monopolylike? You can have issues with amazon without the belief they are some sort of monopoly.
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Nov 10, 2018 14:33
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:They aren't a monopoly of online retail though? They are the largest online retailer but there is tons and tons of very large competition. Why does any criticism of amazon hinge on trying to force it to be something monopolylike? You can have issues with amazon without the belief they are some sort of monopoly. Because of how consumption of anything online works. Dominating physical spaces is difficult (Walmart carving out local monopolies in rural markets back in the day is an example of how it can be done) but dominating online spaces is very easy once you you're the market leader. Amazon's dominance in the US is problematic because it has created the idea that you go to Amazon to look for goods online. That's why many of Amazon's competitors retail through Amazon, even though they may not want to. Because consumers don't go to google anymore in the US to find a place to shop online, they go to Amazon. This is an impassible barrier to entry. This is why Amazon can exert such pressure on specific suppliers (such as books and ebooks), because there is no real alternative to reach the massive consumer market that Amazon has captured. It's not like Amazon doesn't know what it's doing either. Its focusing on creating network externalities to the Amazon platform (like Prime) specifically because they know it creates an opportunity cost to using their competitors, erecting further barriers to entry. It's a formula that Google, Apple and Facebook have already proven works, but this time it's being applied to online retailing. silence_kit posted:Please make your case. As I said, I wouldn't even know where to start. You seem to view the retail market as this one monolithic entity, when it's an extremely diverse assembly of different sectors (groceries, supplies, electronics, clothes, etc) and different markets (rural, city, supermarket, shopping center, online, etc). Amazon is dominating one specific market (online). What they've built is a monopoly of particular sectors in one market and they're growing that monopoly one sector at a time. MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 15:07 on Nov 10, 2018 |
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Nov 10, 2018 14:58
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silence_kit posted:Could you expound on this waste issue? It doesn't have to be state-run, but reducing food waste for example would necessitate potential shortages at times. If customers expect to be able to buy all kinds of produce and all kinds of bread at all times of the day, a huge percentage will have to be thrown away in the end. But, without upsetting the current order, some things could be done to make better use of resources: Some states require all food products to have "best by" dates that are at most due at a certain time in the future (two years, for example). Abolishing these laws, and mandating some products to not have best-before dates at all would be a reasonable first step (salt, for example, doesn't need it). silence_kit posted:BTW, this kind of opinion is sort of at odds with the idea that online retail is a very important market sector. It really isn't, Amazon destroys tons of products that were sent back but they don't deem worth the effort to check & resell.
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Nov 10, 2018 15:08
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Lambert posted:It doesn't have to be state-run, but reducing food waste for example would necessitate potential shortages at times. If customers expect to be able to buy all kinds of produce and all kinds of bread at all times of the day, a huge percentage will have to be thrown away in the end. Ok good, I agree in that adding/removing regulations to private retail is probably more effective to achieve whatever goal you want to achieve than making all retail state-run. Personally, I think your goal is sort of an oddball goal. I'm not really bothered by food waste, and will gladly accept a little more food waste over shortages and poor access, variety, & freshness in food. Most Americans probably agree with me here. Many people who have personally experienced food shortages in communist countries and later move to the US would probably agree with me as well. Lambert posted:It really isn't, Amazon destroys tons of products that were sent back but they don't deem worth the effort to check & resell. The great thing about online retail is that it is the high-convenience, high-access and choice retail option. If you think that none of those things are important, then why is it so important to have the government protect the following unalienable rights of mankind: life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, AND access to easy, cheap online shopping? silence_kit fucked around with this message at 16:17 on Nov 10, 2018 |
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Nov 10, 2018 15:35
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silence_kit posted:The great thing about online retail is that it is the high-convenience, high-access and choice retail option. If you think that none of those things are important, then why is it so important to have the government protect the following unalienable rights of mankind: life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, AND access to easy, cheap online shopping? Oh, my goal isn't to make retail state-run, that was another poster. I was just trying to explain the rationale. But I do think some more regulations to combat waste and create an environment where more sustainable agriculture is encouraged would be a good thing.
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Nov 10, 2018 16:17
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Lambert posted:Oh, my goal isn't to make retail state-run, that was another poster. I was just trying to explain the rationale. But I do think some more regulations to combat waste and create an environment where more sustainable agriculture is encouraged would be a good thing. Ok. I guess I got a little overexcited to point out a paradox in this kind of thinking. I will do it anyway below: The rationale to Nationalize Industry X is usually so that it better serves the public interest. But in this case, it is being called for to reform the industry so that it becomes totally opposite of what the people want. The paradox is resolved if you believe that the American people don't know what is best for themselves. However, wanting to consolidate power into a government where this is a principle viewpoint doesn't sound like a recipe for a healthy system of government to me! silence_kit fucked around with this message at 17:10 on Nov 10, 2018 |
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Nov 10, 2018 17:07
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So, uh, what's everyones top 5 or 10 list of impending chain bankruptcies?
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Nov 10, 2018 17:10
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Horseshoe theory posted:So, uh, what's everyones top 5 or 10 list of impending chain bankruptcies? Well, Sears already tapped out, so that's off the list. I'd say top 5 expected for me are: 1. JC Penny 2. Neiman -Marcus - Same problem that killed Toys R Us. Slight sales decline (5% in FY17) on top of nearly $5bn in debt to be serviced. 3. Pier1 - Almost a 10% drop in sales year-on-year and going to get hit hard by the tariffs. 4. Office Depot - Feds blocked their attempt to merge with Staples, and is trying to shift to business services because their retail arm is lagging. 5. Subway - This is kind of wishful thinking on my part, but they did cut ~1500 stores over the last two years and are struggling to find a new advertising campaign that is as effective as the pedophile who got fit to better chase kids.
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Nov 10, 2018 19:37
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