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plogo posted:How has campaigning on Medicare for all made health care any better? Just because you don't remember politicians who also ran on more liberal healthcare plans because you weren't following politics at the time doesn't mean that they didn't exist in the past. It's the same situation, right now reforming healthcare is a platform for the future. It is 2 years away under the most optimistic predictions and conceivably we could miss out on a shot for 10 years or more. I would argue campaigning for Medicare 4 All saved Obamacare from repeal because instead of pushing Obamacare repeal, Republicans are defending against expanding Medicare.
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Nov 10, 2018 18:00
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Wicked Them Beats posted:You're forgetting Corey "Don't be so mean to Bain Capital" Booker. Booker isn't nearly as good a candidate as he thinks he is. I don't see him going anywhere in the primary. If Biden wins it will be because people think he has the best chance of beating Trump which isn't a completely unreasonable thing to think.
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Nov 10, 2018 18:00
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If the Democratic Party wants to abolish the caucus system, abolish super delegates, and put some measures in place to make sure primary candidates can't buy off the DNC administrators, then maybe you have an argument that the Democratic candidate is representative of the party membership. But the current process is indisputably tainted.
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Nov 10, 2018 18:01
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It is nice to see the third way finally getting ousted, since they don't believe in or care about anything.Crow Jane posted:I feel like voting for Trump to send a message to the DNC is functionally the same as "pretending" to be racist to get out of jury duty. Even if you were doing it ironically, that stink's still on you forever. What kind of monster turns down the opportunity to serve their country through a jury trial  Lightning Knight posted:Oh I'm sure the DNC would love to try and gently caress around as they did last time, I just think your idea that specifically Joe Biden is going to definitely win in a primary field of 20+ mostly establishment candidates is laughable, cheating or no cheating. Honestly I have no idea how 2020 is going to go for the Dems, especially with how crowded it is, and most of the obvious frontrunners have tons of baggage.
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Nov 10, 2018 18:01
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Lightning Knight posted:I think Crowley would've tried for the ratfuck if he hadn't been called out early and very publicly for trying to stay on the ballot sneakily, and it is naive to think there wasn't something fishy going on there. He should've dropped out gracefully when he lost the primary and that he didn't is a douchey thing. Yeah, it's disingenuous to go "and oh look, he never did anything" when this was the entire point of calling him out on it.
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Nov 10, 2018 18:01
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Lightning Knight posted:I think Crowley would've tried for the ratfuck if he hadn't been called out early and very publicly for trying to stay on the ballot sneakily, and it is naive to think there wasn't something fishy going on there. He should've dropped out gracefully when he lost the primary and that he didn't is a douchey thing. I doubt it. How many people vote WFP straight ticket? I bet its much less than Dem straight ticket. He wouldn't have stood half a chance.
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Nov 10, 2018 18:01
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Lightning Knight posted:I think Crowley would've tried for the ratfuck if he hadn't been called out early and very publicly for trying to stay on the ballot sneakily, and it is naive to think there wasn't something fishy going on there. He should've dropped out gracefully when he lost the primary and that he didn't is a douchey thing. It's my understanding that for weird New York reasons the only thing he could have done is switch to another WFP thing to run for. Which he maybe should have done.
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Nov 10, 2018 18:02
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:I doubt it. How many people vote WFP straight ticket? I bet its much less than Dem straight ticket. He wouldn't have stood half a chance. I mean, I agree actually. I don't even necessarily think this is an issue with Democrats in general, I think it's an issue with the New York political machine specifically. They have a history of fuckery and should not be trusted.
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Nov 10, 2018 18:02
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Lightning Knight posted:I think Crowley would've tried for the ratfuck if he hadn't been called out early and very publicly for trying to stay on the ballot sneakily, and it is naive to think there wasn't something fishy going on there. He should've dropped out gracefully when he lost the primary and that he didn't is a douchey thing. i mean, I remember this when it was happening and Crowley immediately said he wasn't running in any way shape or form, and we all had this exact same argument then with everyone saying he secretly was running - and then he didn't. but I was mostly laughing about how corn in the bible posted something he knew was bullshit, got called out, and said 'oh yeah i knew that was bullshit' as if that is a normal, reasonable thing to do
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Nov 10, 2018 18:03
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plogo posted:So why should AOC care about the distinction between UBI and a Federal Jobs Guarantee, right now? It doesn't matter so why pick a policy position between two broadly similar policies that aren't gonna happen? I already explained why and you blew past my answer to attempt a cheap dunk, so I think you're never going to accept my premise about talking about things being important to shaping national opinion on said things. Also, as is frequently said in this thread, we can do more than one thing at a time. She can talk about these issues while also talking about others and doing her actual job in Congress as well.
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Nov 10, 2018 18:03
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Lote posted:I would argue campaigning for Medicare 4 All saved Obamacare from repeal because instead of pushing Obamacare repeal, Republicans are defending against expanding Medicare. I think the preexisting thing was more important, but that's a fair point.
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Nov 10, 2018 18:03
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 https://mobile.twitter.com/JoeMyGod/status/1061297718948057088 quote:In an appearance on Fox Business, host Trish Regan asked presidential historian Doug Wead about Trump’s testy relationship with the press. She said she was “stunned” and “concerned” by members of the media accusing Trump of racism.
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Nov 10, 2018 18:03
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mcmagic posted:Booker isn't nearly as good a candidate as he thinks he is. I don't see him going anywhere in the primary. If Biden wins it will be because people think he has the best chance of beating Trump which isn't a completely unreasonable thing to think. Oh I agree but if there's anyone who can pivot to the center to secure the corporate vote when Biden flames out like usual, it's probably Booker.
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Nov 10, 2018 18:03
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WampaLord posted:I already explained why and you blew past my answer to attempt a cheap dunk, so I think you're never going to accept my premise about talking about things being important to shaping national opinion on said things. She does talk about the issues. She said they she felt that the macroeconomics of UBI are still up in the air. That's good enough for me and I think it's better that she stays vague on programmatic reform that probably won't happen.
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Nov 10, 2018 18:04
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Lote posted:I would argue campaigning for Medicare 4 All saved Obamacare from repeal because instead of pushing Obamacare repeal, Republicans are defending against expanding Medicare. Obamacare got saved from repeal because they missed their shot at it and constituents who used to lap up all the talk of the ACA destroying the country finally realized they absolutely need it now that they actually have health insurance.
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Nov 10, 2018 18:05
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Again, remaining on the ballot by choice when you can easily remove yourself from the ballot is basically just as bad to me, a moron who never went to college. He didn't campaign in the general, the point of remaining on the ballot was not to win, but siphon votes away from AOC so the republican candidate could have a shot.
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Nov 10, 2018 18:05
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For gently caress's sake I just thought it was funny that, because of him still officially running, he got to lose to AOC twice instead of just once I didn't realize there was some kind of insane conspiracy theory that I seemed to be alluding to and I'm sorry if you thought that's what I meant
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Nov 10, 2018 18:05
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It's still 2016 primary chat even if you claim you're talking about Clinton 2020 using the DNC to steal the primary from Bernie imo.
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Nov 10, 2018 18:06
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eke out posted:i mean, I remember this when it was happening and Crowley immediately said he wasn't running in any way shape or form, and we all had this exact same argument then with everyone saying he secretly was running - and then he didn't. I know, it's just something that absolutely deserves to have scorn heaped on it. If AOC had tried the same thing after losing she should also have been scorned. It's just not an acceptable practice in our two-party system, especially in a state like New York with its history of lovely political machine nonsense.
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Nov 10, 2018 18:06
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Chomskyan posted:If the Democratic Party wants to abolish the caucus system, abolish super delegates, and put some measures in place to make sure primary candidates can't buy off the DNC administrators, then maybe you have an argument that the Democratic candidate is representative of the party membership. But the current process is indisputably tainted. the caucus system is loving weird but I'm not totally convinced it's bad heck, it bears a distinct resemblance to how some communist or socialist countries handle their election-like processes  superdelegates are dumb but largely unimportant, and while I remain unconvinced of the actual impact of DNC Tucker I agree that that third thing is a very bad look
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Nov 10, 2018 18:06
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Lote posted:I’m talking specifically about people who support a Dem candidate in the primary and when that person doesn’t get nominated, not voting in the general, protest voting, or worse, voting for accelerationism. There were the PUMAs in 2008, Bernie supporters in 2016 that refused to vote for Obama and Hillary. The party will appeal to you if enough like minded people vote in the primary. and again, you never see republicans doing this. how many republicans were berating people who weren't enthusiastic about voting for romney? for mccain? everyone realized disgruntled primary voters were negligible and there were far more important factors that led to their losses. it's only dems who hold these voter bloc grudges.
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Nov 10, 2018 18:06
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Lightning Knight posted:I know, it's just something that absolutely deserves to have scorn heaped on it. If AOC had tried the same thing after losing she should also have been scorned. It's just not an acceptable practice in our two-party system, especially in a state like New York with its history of lovely political machine nonsense. Except that didn't happen. It was fake news. It was bullshit. Edit: I called it fake news when it happened that there would be any serious ratfucking, and there was no serious ratfucking, but people still acted like they uncovered some secret conspiracy.
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Nov 10, 2018 18:07
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Chomskyan posted:If the Democratic Party wants to abolish the caucus system, abolish super delegates, and put some measures in place to make sure primary candidates can't buy off the DNC administrators, then maybe you have an argument that the Democratic candidate is representative of the party membership. But the current process is indisputably tainted. I don't necessarily disagree with doing these things but didn't Bernie do better in caucuses? Or am I misremembering? ^ his name was still on the ballot and he had the power to take it off, he deserves to be poo poo on for that.
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Nov 10, 2018 18:07
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Your Parents posted:Again, remaining on the ballot by choice when you can easily remove yourself from the ballot is basically just as bad to me, a moron who never went to college. He didn't campaign in the general, the point of remaining on the ballot was not to win, but siphon votes away from AOC so the republican candidate could have a shot. turns out he would've needed to literally campaign for the republican for the siphoning the votes idea to work 
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Nov 10, 2018 18:08
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Your Parents posted:Again, remaining on the ballot by choice when you can easily remove yourself from the ballot is basically just as bad to me, a moron who never went to college. He didn't campaign in the general, the point of remaining on the ballot was not to win, but siphon votes away from AOC so the republican candidate could have a shot. i disagree with this conspiracy theory
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Nov 10, 2018 18:08
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eke out posted:turns out he would've needed to literally campaign for the republican for the siphoning the votes idea to work Yeah it was badass.
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Nov 10, 2018 18:08
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Your Parents posted:Again, remaining on the ballot by choice when you can easily remove yourself from the ballot is basically just as bad to me, a moron who never went to college. He didn't campaign in the general, the point of remaining on the ballot was not to win, but siphon votes away from AOC so the republican candidate could have a shot. The Republican in that district got less than 14% of the vote. There was never a chance of the Republican winning that district, even with four Dems splitting the vote. Crowley was hoping for momentum and a quixotic win a la Lieberman or Murkowski but it became obvious early on that it wasn't going to break that way for him.
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Nov 10, 2018 18:08
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Tibalt posted:It's still 2016 primary chat even if you claim you're talking about Clinton 2020 using the DNC to steal the primary from Bernie imo. 2016 primary chat is allowed now
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Nov 10, 2018 18:09
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CubanMissile posted:Obamacare got saved from repeal because they missed their shot at it and constituents who used to lap up all the talk of the ACA destroying the country finally realized they absolutely need it now that they actually have health insurance. Also I think the fact that the GOP repealed part of it which immediately resulted in higher premiums but no actual benefit to anyone, might have helped
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Nov 10, 2018 18:09
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Lightning Knight posted:
This yea
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Nov 10, 2018 18:09
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These meltdowns fuel me https://mobile.twitter.com/mitchellvii/status/1061292617642795014
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Nov 10, 2018 18:10
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I just assumed Crowley though he could secretly win because everyone who didn't bother to vote in the primary would be scared by the big bad socialist and try to stop her before it's too late.
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Nov 10, 2018 18:11
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Lightning Knight posted:I know, it's just something that absolutely deserves to have scorn heaped on it. If AOC had tried the same thing after losing she should also have been scorned. It's just not an acceptable practice in our two-party system, especially in a state like New York with its history of lovely political machine nonsense. if i'm not mistaken the problem was that he had to affirmatively run for another office in a way the WFP would have to tell people is fake/not to vote for him to be removed from their ballot, but i certainly agree that this whole electoral cycle has shown how insanely hosed up new york's electoral system is right now. hopefully with the turncoat dems thrown out of the state legislature and a proper majority back in place now, they can move for some sane reforms so they won't literally be more regressive than most red states (like, no early voting, jesus) like they are right now.
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Nov 10, 2018 18:11
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Mr Ice Cream Glove posted:These meltdowns fuel me Big Sugar is going to throw a zillion dollars at these recounts.
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Nov 10, 2018 18:12
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i know this was a few pages ago (this thread moves fast) but fwiw i immediately recognized citb's statement that the primary was going to be rigged for joe biden as a silly enough statement that it was an obvious joke
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Nov 10, 2018 18:12
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This seems very problematic. https://mobile.twitter.com/Taniel/status/1060588665766846468
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Nov 10, 2018 18:13
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corn in the bible posted:The fuckery in the primaries last time is well documented and he's the most corporate centrist guy around right now. Why wouldn't that happen again this time? Corn is right here. Crowley showed up the ballot under the Working Families Party, which used to sound like a cool and good thing, but really has shown itself to be a tool of the NY machine. The last time ya'll heard of WFP was when they endorsed Cynthia Nixon, and the unions which are extremely beholden to Cuomo revolted and essentially threatened to end the WFP in all but name for having the audacity to no pick the machine fucker. When Nixon lost, Cuomo "accepted" the WPF's nomination so Nixon couldn't pull a Crowley and show up on Tuesday's ballot. The WPF is a convenient fiction of progressiveness in NY politics. It provides an avenue for Cuomo to whisper sweet nothings to the downstate poor people while allowing the upstate democrats to be hot garbage.
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Nov 10, 2018 18:13
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Stexils posted:i know this was a few pages ago (this thread moves fast) but fwiw i immediately recognized citb's statement that the primary was going to be rigged for joe biden as a silly enough statement that it was an obvious joke It's not really a joke, more that leftists wouldn't be in the slightest surprised, and don't believe that it being an obviously horrible idea would stop the Democrats for a second.
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Nov 10, 2018 18:15
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osker posted:Corn is right here. Crowley showed up the ballot under the Working Families Party, which used to sound like a cool and good thing, but really has shown itself to be a tool of the NY machine. not that this whole NY election system isn't totally hosed, but I would like to nots that "Crowley is bad because he sort of ran under WFP after losing" and "Cuomo is bad because he didn't let Nixon run under WFP after losing" are not the most consistent stances I've seen today
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Nov 10, 2018 18:15
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Mr Ice Cream Glove posted:This seems very problematic. the good news is the hand recount (which is definitely happening, barring tens of thousands of republican votes appearing in broward and palm beach lol) will certainly catch this if the problem really was machines
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Nov 10, 2018 18:16
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