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OwlFancier posted:It also failed to pass any coherent directive to the leadership, which was the initial suggestion... "If you can't get a GE then campaign for a public vote" is stupid because a: the condition is nonsensical and b: the suggestion may easily be in conflict with the condition. Because alienating the other part of your base works great.
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Nov 11, 2018 07:51
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ronya posted:Conference considered Corbyn's argument, already put forth before the motion vote, to focus on a new general election instead - and recognized it correctly as evasion since the Tories are hardly likely to collapse early if they can survive the Brexit storm, not when the polling promises at best yet another coalition Tory govt. If the odds of Tory rebels on Brexit are bad, the odds on Tory rebels on Tories in government are...? What is this miraculously workable plan to knock out the government? This isn't the 1970s, it's not like Comrade Corbyn is pitching government collapse via general strike (the fevered dreams of the Mail otherwise) As has been reported a lot, May's only real way to continue being leader (and to have any policy agenda beyond 'lol I dunno') is to call and win another General Election because every sign so far points to her failing to pass a Brexit bill and being left holding the exciting question of "Do the Tories burn their own party down for a generation and do a Hard Brexit?". Or she might do a Cameron and gently caress off before it all goes to poo poo. Again. This is also ignoring the DUP which is something we admittedly all enjoyed doing until 2017. They've made demands that make any deal that could get past the EU totally impossible, so again the Tories are faced with calling another Election or sucking a Hard Brexit and as much as they'd hate losing some seats to Corbyn those with safe seats on the Tory Benches do realise they stop becoming safe seats if the Tories end up putting the UK economy in a big bin and setting it on fire.
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Nov 11, 2018 07:52
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Pesmerga posted:Because alienating the other part of your base works great. This was their position in 2017, it does not seem to be alienating them. I would suggest that the labour voting remain demographic has more functioning brain cells than the leave part of it. Presumably in that they can appreciate that the rest of labour's platform is more important and their brexit position is very probably immaterial. Though I am admittedly somewhat concerned lately given the renewed "I can't believe corbyn meant what he said" complaints that there might be a few who were just delusional during 2017. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 08:03 on Nov 11, 2018 |
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Nov 11, 2018 07:53
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OwlFancier posted:And no I'm not at all convinced that a future labour government, if it had the option, wouldn't try to find some way to leave the EU. Was it you who highlighted that actual Lexiters are now increasingly rare in the Labour left? It might have been someone else. Regardless in TYOOL 2018, a mere four years after Bob Crow kicked it, we are now in a brave new world where left-wing Euroskepticism is utterly moribund and antifa show up to battle pro-Leave protesters Or in English, Labour isn't going to give up the single-market-by-some-other-label, and is deeply uncomfortable with CONTROLS ON IMMIGRATION at best, so that leaves... what? 3/10? Certainly there would be no better way of cheesing off the increasingly urban, increasingly educated, and increasingly middle-class bloc who make up the Labour base in the era of Corbyn Fans posted:As has been reported a lot, May's only real way to continue being leader (and to have any policy agenda beyond 'lol I dunno') is to call and win another General Election because every sign so far points to her failing to pass a Brexit bill and being left holding the exciting question of "Do the Tories burn their own party down for a generation and do a Hard Brexit?". Or she might do a Cameron and gently caress off before it all goes to poo poo. Again. the mythical Tory/DUP rebels that never materialize on Brexit are no more material on the Tory leadership struggle or DUP votes on a no-confidence motion any argument that invokes the unlikelihood of the former cannot plausibly summon the latter to save itself
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Nov 11, 2018 08:07
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OwlFancier posted:I would suggest that the labour voting remain demographic has more functioning brain cells than the leave part of it. Judging by the cavalcade of meltery we've had in here over the past few days I'm not convinced.
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Nov 11, 2018 08:10
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ronya posted:Was it you who highlighted that actual Lexiters are now increasingly rare in the Labour left? It might have been someone else. Regardless in TYOOL 2018, a mere four years after Bob Crow kicked it, we are now in a brave new world where left-wing Euroskepticism is utterly moribund and antifa show up to battle pro-Leave protesters I don't think there were ever many lexiters on the labour left, labour members are and always have been strongly remain. But I would suggest that the fact that leave was the position of the tories and ukip might have something to do with both that and why antifa end up battering the cunts. Leave is strongly the camp of racists and turbocapitalists at this point in time. Labour being in government would change the material reality of that because they would entirely control the terms of leaving. I would not be particularly upset if they decided not to leave, but I think that they may change their minds fairly quickly back to leave if remaining compromised their domestic program. I could quite probably see the leadership pivoting to "well we weren't going to but the EU are now literally forcing us to keep up austerity (accurate or not) so now we're going to do it" With an accompanying referendum or not. The case for lexit could be made but it would be contingent on the EU actually doing the things that leave claimed it did and meddling with the UK government to the detriment of its citizenry, which it as yet has not. If it started I think the lexit argument would see renewed vigour. I hope it won't come to that, it would be lovely if we could stay in the EU and also have a bunch of government spending and poo poo. It may, however, not be possible, and it may also be that Labour goes with some half arsed norway poo poo just so they can say they did it. I don't know. It's hard to predict because the political situation would have had to change drastically to reach that point. Ultimately though, who supports leave depends on what leave means. As long as the principal threat to the left is the tories and ukip and their brexit then yes, left leave is gonna be a niche position. If we lived in a future with a labour government and an actually belligerent EU, that would very probably change. On a related note I also expect EU sentiment to cool significantly after brexit as well for similar reasons. I don't think people are going to be as fond of them once the realities of being outside the bloc set in and it becomes clear that there's no way back in on the same terms. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 08:27 on Nov 11, 2018 |
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Nov 11, 2018 08:16
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ronya posted:the mythical Tory/DUP rebels that never materialize on Brexit are no more material on the Tory leadership struggle or DUP votes on a no-confidence motion The DUP have never had to rebel because, unlike the Tory Rebels, May always capitulates to them. The issue is that of late she isn't able to capitulate to them because what they want is literally impossible.
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Nov 11, 2018 08:18
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OwlFancier posted:On a related note I also expect EU sentiment to cool significantly after brexit as well for similar reasons. I don't think people are going to be as fond of them once the realities of being outside the bloc set in and it becomes clear that there's no way back in on the same terms. I think this is the long-term view by the older leadership, actually: that it's a temporary political dalliance that can be outlasted conversely, this is the long-term view the apocalyptic FBPEs are being apocalyptic about
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Nov 11, 2018 08:42
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It is annoyingly self fulfilling and yes I can see why a hard remainer would be especially unhappy with it, because once we're out it's unlikely to find popular support for getting back in. Join us or we'll kill you does not engender sympathy. E: Also I loving hate you because the more I post at you the more I loving sound like you. Your word salad ate-a-thesuarus-for-breakfast posting is infectious and I hate it. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 08:48 on Nov 11, 2018 |
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Nov 11, 2018 08:45
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word salad is the most delicious of foodpinions
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Nov 11, 2018 09:01
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https://www.theguardian.com/politic...MP=share_btn_twquote:The rightwing pressure group the TaxPayers’ Alliance has conceded that it illegally sacked the whistleblower Shahmir Sanni for revealing unlawful overspending in the Brexit referendum campaign, in a case that could have a major impact on how lobbyists are described in the media. I wonder why they admitted to all of this instead of dragging it out through court? Oh whats this little tidbit? quote:Details of the alliance’s relationship with Downing Street and the role of Stephen Parkinson, Theresa May’s political secretary, will now not be heard in court. That would be why then. quote:Read more
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Nov 11, 2018 09:33
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Gonzo McFee posted:https://twitter.com/SpecCoffeeHouse/status/1061237537132421120 No. Petain is dead in our hearts forever. The only reason he wasn't hanged at the time was that he was too senile to know that it was a bad thing and so there was no point.
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Nov 11, 2018 09:37
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I feel like it's worth pointing out as it's confusing people, but there's a massive difference between real Turkish Delight ('lokum') and the Cadbury's Turkish Delight. They're completely different recipes and taste completely different. Real lokum is vegan, the Cadbury stuff isn't even vegetarian.
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Nov 11, 2018 09:56
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Im not wearing a poppy today. I've never worn a poppy. What are we trying to remember? What's so important that we mustn't forget? There's gonna be another war somewhere anyway so what's all the song and dance for?
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Nov 11, 2018 10:25
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https://twitter.com/SketchesbyBoze/status/1061338973749080064
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Nov 11, 2018 10:45
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Whether Labout have the votes or not is something that influences what bills can be passed. It shouldn't limit what policies can be advocated for. I bet you would be in a totally different place, politically speaking, if Corbyn was willing to loudly and explicitly advocate for reversing Brexit/a second referendum despite Tory opposition. Spirited advocacy, especially from someone like a popular party leader, can change the popular discourse on issues and shift the Overton Window, which in turn allow for more radical options being on the table. Saying that not opposing Brexit post-referendum is necessary to "respect the will of the people" is as farcical as saying that not opposing the government post-General Election is necessary to "respect the will of the people". The will of the people can change. That's why there can be multiple elections and multiple referendums. A non-governing political party's primary duty is to present an alternative vision, which Corbyn is rightfully doing in many sectors of policy, which is why its very noticeable that he doesn't oppose a policy as big and significant in Britsih politics as Brexit. If people look at this, alongside his spirited advocacy for other causes which were outside the mainstream until very recently, it isn't particularly surprising for them to conclude that he supports some form of Brexit, rather than being a stealth Remainer whose hands are tied. This whole "he only does this because he respects democratic institutions" canard is intellectually dishonest, imo.
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Nov 11, 2018 10:48
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:Whether Labout have the votes or not is something that influences what bills can be passed. It shouldn't limit what policies can be advocated for. I bet you would be in a totally different place, politically speaking, if Corbyn was willing to loudly and explicitly advocate for reversing Brexit/a second referendum despite Tory opposition. Why should he try and shift it? I'm being serious here, why should we be spirited advocates for an organisation that is, to put it bluntly, kind of poo poo? Like I can understand remaining and voted for it, but the sheer number of brainless wonders who think that going "WE WILL NOT REST UNTIL THE STATUS QUO IS RESTORED" is sensible, the sort of people who happily denigrated Corbyn at every point for being even slightly nuanced are now rounding on him and saying "DO SOMETHING". To be honest I would have to fight the urge to go "You know what, no. You guys voted every day for loving over the poorest and most vulnerable and are now asking me to defend your privilege?" And it's almost as if he loving has been trying to stop Brexit negatively affect as many people as possible by trying to convince as many members of Labour to vote against it. Which is more than what Jo Johnson has been loving doing, and a drat sight more than what both the Lib dems and Tory "rebels" have been up to. Letting this sort of thing rest with Keir Starmer and people who know more about it is probably best, but Gods alone knows any level of loving "Well we need to make sure that we maintain the same level of stuff we already have" is greeted by the kind of screaming one usually only gets at Beetles concerts. So yeah, I am sick to death of hearing this mealy mouthed bullshitting "Whaaaaa, your an rear end in a top hat and anti-semite but do something for us" whinging pouring forth from the omnipresent maws of the kind of chinless wonders who would burn poor people for fuel. gently caress these people.
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Nov 11, 2018 10:58
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fridge corn posted:Im not wearing a poppy today. I've never worn a poppy. What are we trying to remember? What's so important that we mustn't forget? There's gonna be another war somewhere anyway so what's all the song and dance for? Thoughts And Prayers Day for victims of gun violence. It is also important we remember the classic line from that Wilfred Owen poem, 'dulce et decorum est pro patria mori'. Edit: Also that dead soldiers are the best soldiers as we don't have to listen to their opinions about whether it was worth it or not. Disabled soldiers are much the same but no one wants to listen to them.
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Nov 11, 2018 11:01
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:I bet you would be in a totally different place, politically speaking, if Corbyn was willing to loudly and explicitly advocate for reversing Brexit/a second referendum despite Tory opposition. Cool, well while we're in fantasy gambling land I bet that it'll start raining unicorns at noon tomorrow. e: as for the rest of your post I'm not even going to bother engaging with "Corbyn is actually a leaver but if he spoke out in favour of a second referendum he'd be able to change leavers' minds"
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Nov 11, 2018 11:08
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Josef bugman posted:Why should he try and shift it? I'm being serious here, why should we be spirited advocates for an organisation that is, to put it bluntly, kind of poo poo? Like I can understand remaining and voted for it, but the sheer number of brainless wonders who think that going "WE WILL NOT REST UNTIL THE STATUS QUO IS RESTORED" is sensible, the sort of people who happily denigrated Corbyn at every point for being even slightly nuanced are now rounding on him and saying "DO SOMETHING". To be honest I would have to fight the urge to go "You know what, no. You guys voted every day for loving over the poorest and most vulnerable and are now asking me to defend your privilege?" Because the people who will be hurt the most from Brexit ARE the poor and disadvantaged, especially when the Tories have a free hand in negotiating it and being the ones in charge at the exit date. All of the centrist melts will be fine one way or another. It's the people who are already suffering the worst effects of austerity that will bear the brunt of the economic downturn, not rich finance guys.
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Nov 11, 2018 11:09
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Julio Cruz posted:Cool, well while we're in fantasy gambling land I bet that it'll start raining unicorns at noon tomorrow. Ah, yes, the famous Labour party slogan "Better things aren't possible, so better give up."
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Nov 11, 2018 11:12
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:Ah, yes, the famous Labour party slogan "Better things aren't possible, so better give up." No offense, but I value your political chinny reckons as an anonymous forums poster a hell of a lot less than those of people whose career it actually is.
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Nov 11, 2018 11:15
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Josef bugman posted:So yeah, I am sick to death of hearing this mealy mouthed bullshitting I thought you were going to take a break from this thread 
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Nov 11, 2018 11:16
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fridge corn posted:Im not wearing a poppy today. I've never worn a poppy. What are we trying to remember? What's so important that we mustn't forget? There's gonna be another war somewhere anyway so what's all the song and dance for? we must be thankful for the brave sacrifices of our boys in ww1, the million deaths which gave us such things to be thankful for as;
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Nov 11, 2018 11:16
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:Because the people who will be hurt the most from Brexit ARE the poor and disadvantaged, especially when the Tories have a free hand in negotiating it and being the ones in charge at the exit date. All of the centrist melts will be fine one way or another. It's the people who are already suffering the worst effects of austerity that will bear the brunt of the economic downturn, not rich finance guys. Except that, surprisingly, Corbyn's trying to do something for those people by saying poo poo like "we need to make sure there is no real change and that negotiation is entered into with an attempt to be good". But its not them who are on the TV or allowed to comment on it, it's always the wealthy and the well heeled who get the right to speak. And yes, I am fairly aware of that, but do you know what else? There is no way of preventing that short of either a general election or actual armed resistance and I somehow doubt that Labour is going to turn vanguardist overnight.
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Nov 11, 2018 11:18
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Spangly A posted:we must be thankful for the brave sacrifices of our boys in ww1, the million deaths which gave us such things to be thankful for as; - cool tanks - cool planes
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Nov 11, 2018 11:20
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JeremoudCorbynejad posted:- cool tanks you forgot cool ships why do you hate Britain
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Nov 11, 2018 11:21
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serious gaylord posted:https://www.theguardian.com/politic...MP=share_btn_tw This is the poo poo. This illegal overspend, tories being clearly involved in criminal electoral activity, vote leave's guilty verdicts, sockpuppet twitter accounts, the BBC refusing to acknowledge that giving airtime to lunatics was bad, nazi dogwhistling in the final adverts, lies on busses, and facebook's blatant disregard for UK election or advertising laws. The UK has been bought and paid for more blatantly than usual, and leaving the EU in these conditions is completely insane I hope keir starmer manages to save this ridiculous country but I'm not optimistic
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Nov 11, 2018 11:23
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:Because the people who will be hurt the most from Brexit ARE the poor and disadvantaged, especially when the Tories have a free hand in negotiating it and being the ones in charge at the exit date. All of the centrist melts will be fine one way or another. It's the people who are already suffering the worst effects of austerity that will bear the brunt of the economic downturn, not rich finance guys. Right, so a *Tory Brexit* would be poo poo, the thing that Labour and Corbyn are actually arguing against.
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Nov 11, 2018 11:23
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Kegluneq posted:Thoughts And Prayers Day for victims of gun violence. Don't forget nice little shards of local fame! https://twitter.com/live_coventry/status/1061560996584656896
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Nov 11, 2018 11:24
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MikeCrotch posted:Right, so a *Tory Brexit* would be poo poo, the thing that Labour and Corbyn are actually arguing against. Labrexit would be at best still poo poo but less. Its still brexit after all
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Nov 11, 2018 11:25
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Spangly A posted:This is the poo poo. This illegal overspend, tories being clearly involved in criminal electoral activity, vote leave's guilty verdicts, sockpuppet twitter accounts, the BBC refusing to acknowledge that giving airtime to lunatics was bad, nazi dogwhistling in the final adverts, lies on busses, and facebook's blatant disregard for UK election or advertising laws. Its utterly unprecedented that they would admit to all of this just to prevent their financial backers having to be named which must raise eyebrows into the stratosphere. They should not be given the time of day on any tv program without having to explain this. They won't of course. They'll be on QT again shortly.
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Nov 11, 2018 11:33
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serious gaylord posted:Its utterly unprecedented that they would admit to all of this just to prevent their financial backers having to be named which must raise eyebrows into the stratosphere. They should not be given the time of day on any tv program without having to explain this. Honesty if I was the Labour Party I'd be doing everything I can to find those names.
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Nov 11, 2018 11:36
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Julio Cruz posted:you forgot cool ships why do you hate Britain we already had those though tanks and planes were new e: also i notice the queen is wearing FIVE poppies does she think she's better than me????
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Nov 11, 2018 11:36
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JeremoudCorbynejad posted:e: also i notice the queen is wearing FIVE poppies does she think she's better than me???? those aren't poppies they're horcruxes
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Nov 11, 2018 11:39
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:If people look at this, alongside his spirited advocacy for other causes which were outside the mainstream until very recently, it isn't particularly surprising for them to conclude that he supports some form of Brexit, rather than being a stealth Remainer whose hands are tied. "How will you stop the press and Tories from using it to blame Corbyn for sabotaging the Brexit unicorn deal?" Corbyn's principled opposition to the Iraq war was not and could not be used to blame him for civilians dying and the rise of Isis. His principled opposition to austerity was not and could not be used to blame for poor people starving in their homes. His principled opposition to NHS privatisation/starvation is not and cannot be used to blame him for the NHS falling to pieces. His principled opposition to Brexit absolutely would be used to blame him for the UK failing to obtain a magical fantasy deal that totally would have been possible otherwise. And unlike all of the things above he can't entirely oppose the EU in principle because despite its overall positive effect on the UK it's still a bastion of neoliberalism that entrenches almost everything he stands against economically. Hence his 7/10 stance which was a drat sight more sensible than telling residents of Consett and Boston and Cornwall that they've never had it so good.
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Nov 11, 2018 11:44
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serious gaylord posted:Its utterly unprecedented that they would admit to all of this just to prevent their financial backers having to be named which must raise eyebrows into the stratosphere. They should not be given the time of day on any tv program without having to explain this. They shouldn't have been given the time of day anyway, but I wish all their introductions from now on were "..but according to the criminal organisation Taxpayer's Alliance,..."
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Nov 11, 2018 11:54
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If anyone would like a dumb, tedious analogy to explain Corbyn's position on Brexit and the EU, come right this way. The EU is currently a runaway train, it's hurtling along full pelt, and while it's inevitable it'll eventually run out of tracks, nobody's quite sure when. One of the carriages is full of British passengers who don't want to be on it any more. The no-deal Brexiteers want to jump out of the windows ASAP, with the faith that they'll land on something soft, such as the massive wads of cash that have been promised to them on the outside. Jeremy Corbyn is also a passenger, and he also wants to get off the EU train, but he's aware jumping off like that lot is probable suicide. He'd rather take the simpler option of going to the front and applying the brakes - in the unlikely event it'll stop in time, then fair enough, problem solved, but at least when it does run out of track it'll be slow enough to jump out of with only minor injuries. Problem is he can't get to the brakes because he isn't the driver, so he needs to calm down the passengers and win their support, so he can overthrow the current driver and get at the controls. This part of the analogy is a bit weak. As for the other 27 carriages, maybe most of them think they're on a looping bit of track so they'll never crash, I dunno, you'll have to ask them.
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Nov 11, 2018 11:58
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I can't get enough of are Dan
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lol the BBC presenter (David Dimbleby) just introduced everyone by their title (PM, chiefs of staff, etc etc) EXCEPT for Jeremy Corbyn, introduced by name alone
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Nov 11, 2018 11:58
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"Random guy, Jeremy Corbyn"
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Nov 11, 2018 11:59
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