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Ms Adequate posted:Now I know that the most corrupt fucker in history, an outright nazi who has stoked racial hatred, betrayed the country to Russia, hosed over trans people at lightspeed, thrown kids into camps, and deployed the military to gun down refugees, all while undermining the entirety of civic society and the mores of democracy, is bad, but hear me out; What if the other guys are just as bad? I mean they wouldn't have done any of that poo poo but they also wouldn't have implemented FALGSC by now so, really, they're both equally bad. I sure know that a too-slow improvement in rights for us trans people is exactly as bad as the suicidal terror and plans to flee the country which we got! you're right! we better not have better campaigns! (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 11, 2018 08:24
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Bottom Liner posted:Except there are plenty of people here that say that exact thing. I've read the last several pages didn't see these plenty of people, maybe I legit missed them. Could you point them out?
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Nov 11, 2018 08:28
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Axetrain posted:I've read the last several pages didn't see these plenty of people, maybe I legit missed them. Could you point them out? It's been an ongoing argument across many threads, not specifically tonight though some people were implying it.
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Nov 11, 2018 08:30
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Axetrain posted:They aren't picking the candidate they think is most likely to win. They are picking the one that will be most friendly to corporate interests Arguing that Dem's are too friendly to corporate interests and supporting corporate friendly candidates I think is something you should complain about. In general I think the Democratic party puts too much emphasis on how much funds and PAC money a potential candidate can raise in considering their viability. I'm not trying to say don't criticize Democrats ever, but to refrain from pushing overly extreme conspiratorial ones that feed into a bullshit Republican driven narrative and push others towards not participating at all.
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Nov 11, 2018 08:31
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Bottom Liner posted:It's been an ongoing argument across many threads, not specifically tonight though some people were implying it. So no then. I'm sure that you can scour the forums for this but when you say "here" it sort of implies the people who have taken part in this discussion in this thread. THF13 posted:Arguing that Dem's are too friendly to corporate interests and supporting corporate friendly candidates I think is something you should complain about. In general I think the Democratic party puts too much emphasis on how much funds and PAC money a potential candidate can raise in considering their viability. I'm not trying to say don't criticize Democrats ever, but to refrain from pushing overly extreme conspiratorial ones that feed into a bullshit Republican driven narrative and push others towards not participating at all. I hear you but I don't think it's jumping into the realm of conspiracy to say that Democratic leadership prefers candidates friendly to the wealthy and they try to tip the scales in their favor, which may indeed be legal, but is lovely regardless.
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Nov 11, 2018 08:39
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Lightning Knight posted:I really don't agree with this, and attempts to equivocate Hitler and Stalin is a Nazi talking point just so you know. Stalin was undoubtedly a lovely dictator who caused the deaths of millions due to his own incompetence, but Hitler organized the systemic industrialized slaughter of millions based on their identity or benign characteristics in a way that Stain has no direct equivalent to. Both sides, in fact, are not equally bad in that example. This view is disturbingly common. I was recently yelling at some army people (I are also one) about Brexit on a different forum and the idea that "actually Hitler was left wing / was a socialist  " came up like 4 times in a day.I guess it's just yet another variant of bad faith posting and disinformation but I was pretty amazed that people are tricked by Nazionalsozialismus nearly 100 years later. Also the army seems even more full of assholes than I realised. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 11, 2018 08:40
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Saying that you'd vote for Stalin over Hitler isn't an endorsement of Stalin. They were two of the 20th century's greatest monsters, but Hitler was worse. The Holodomor was either a genocide or close enough to being one that disputing this is either an academic exercise in terminology or whatever the leftist version of putting on a fedora and saying "well, actually..." is. Don't @ me. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 11, 2018 08:51
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Young Freud posted:Steve King is so far right that The Weekly Standard would be a far-left publication to him. It's more insidious than that. He, and the GOP, have propagandized their base to the point where any inconvenient fact can be waved away by calling it fake, claiming it's from a leftist source, etc. Yeah, these claims are ridiculous on their face to informed persons, but to the CHUD base it's taken as gospel. It's been mentioned repeatedly, but bears repeating yet again: This technique is now being applied to elections and voting itself, and it's dangerous as hell that it is.
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Nov 11, 2018 08:53
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Axetrain posted:I hear you but I don't think it's jumping into the realm of conspiracy to say that Democratic leadership prefers candidates friendly to the wealthy and they try to tip the scales in their favor, which may indeed be legal, but is lovely regardless. I agree with you that they prefer those candidates, and I've acknowledged they do sometimes try to tip the scales. I don't think the actions they've taken or the frequency of how often they try to tip the scales has reached a point that justifies headlines that Democrats are rigging the primaries. Political parties are going to be filled with politicians who are engaged in politicking. Progressives are entering the Democratic party which means it is going to be more and more difficult to try shady sorts of things to freeze them out. And I don't think there is anything wrong with these new progressive democrats in the party helping potential progressive candidates in their primaries either. Not that I think it should be entirely without rules, things like spending funds raised for the the Democratic party in primary ads for a specific candidate or not giving access to resources like polling data or voter registration information to a candidate shouldn't be allowed by the party.
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Nov 11, 2018 08:57
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Saying that you'd vote for Stalin over Hitler isn't an endorsement of Stalin. They were two of the 20th century's greatest monsters, but Hitler was worse. The Holodomor was either a genocide or close enough to being one that disputing this is either an academic exercise in terminology or whatever the leftist version of putting on a fedora and saying "well, actually..." is. Does Churchill rank #3 with the Bengal Famine? quote:In 1943, some 3 million brown-skinned subjects of the Raj died in the Bengal famine, one of history's worst. Mukerjee delves into official documents and oral accounts of survivors to paint a horrifying portrait of how Churchill, as part of the Western war effort, ordered the diversion of food from starving Indians to already well-supplied British soldiers and stockpiles in Britain and elsewhere in Europe, including Greece and Yugoslavia. And he did so with a churlishness that cannot be excused on grounds of policy: Churchill's only response to a telegram from the government in Delhi about people perishing in the famine was to ask why Gandhi hadn't died yet.
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Nov 11, 2018 08:59
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Trabisnikof posted:Does Churchill rank #3 with the Bengal Famine? You’re forgetting old mate Zedong
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Nov 11, 2018 09:04
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Trabisnikof posted:Does Churchill rank #3 with the Bengal Famine? Smeef posted:You’re forgetting old mate Zedong USPOL is really not the thread to be discussing genocide high scores. I suggest moving the discussion to another thread or maybe taking a look at Leper's Colony. This is your only warning.
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Nov 11, 2018 09:08
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Lightning Knight posted:I mean, I'm just saying, I think the lesser of two evils between Hitler and Stalin is Stalin? I didnt mean to touch off a vigourous discussion re: the relative merits of dictators. It was a throwaway line about the absurdities of mindless lesser evil voting. Chilichimp posted:Your choice is not between Hitler and Stalin. It's Hitler and Beto O'Rourke. Do you have any fuckin' idea the number of candidates this cycle that eschewed corporate packs? The winds are a changin' and they'll continue to change. Yeah. Its weird how the corporate candidate losing the vote touched off a scramble to the left for the next batch of candidates. The winds are changing because people turned away from the foul stagnant wind of Third Way Dems. Not voting really did send a message. It would have been nicer to not have needed the message, but the Third Ways claws are in deep.
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Nov 11, 2018 09:17
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Party Plane Jones posted:USPOL is really not the thread to be discussing genocide high scores. I suggest moving the discussion to another thread or maybe taking a look at Leper's Colony. I'm glad I refreshed because I was going to make a philosophy post. That sad we ARE in fact living in a world right now where the question of the relative evil of Hurting with Intent vs Hurting as a byproduct of other action and actively refusing to change your course is kind of being thrown in our faces, so I don't blame people for musing on it. Still, wrong thread for it even with the obvious tangential relation.
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Nov 11, 2018 09:18
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Chilichimp posted:
 I think you mean he was twelve parsecs better than Karen loving Handel. 
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Nov 11, 2018 09:19
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Not a Step posted:It would have been nicer to not have needed the message, but the Third Ways claws are in deep. Yeah, gently caress all the people who've endured unimaginable suffering in the last two years and will continue to for the next two years. Trans people aren't going to legally exist anymore and women have their very bodily autonomy at risk in the SCOTUS and 50 other horrible things. But at least you sent a message! 
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Nov 11, 2018 09:23
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Not a Step posted:Not voting really did send a message. iiiiii do not think it sent the message you think it sent - if you don't vote why should they care, they'll just stop catering to you, much like how vegetarians are not considered a threat to the meat industry you just chose to voluntarily erase yourself it is not making the point you think it is making and reflects more on you than any part of the system
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Nov 11, 2018 09:25
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Sanguinia posted:Yeah, gently caress all the people who've endured unimaginable suffering in the last two years and will continue to for the next two years. Trans people aren't going to legally exist anymore and women have their very bodily autonomy at risk in the SCOTUS and 50 other horrible things. But at least you sent a message! And if that poster had voted for Hillary, that would have 100% still happened. She would have still lost to Trump. Seems a little dishonest to claim they’re responsible for something that would have happened regardless of their choice.
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Nov 11, 2018 09:27
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Yo I voted for dread Abuela But its not voters who are at fault here, its the Democratic Party's fault for not running better candidates. Politicians are supposed to appeal to the people. Thats their job. The Democrats failed at that and now people are suffering. Get mad at the cabal of corporate ghouls that have drained the party of vitality, its their fault poo poo sucks. In the case of the Clintons more than most. Champion the new candidates breaking from Third Way capitalism. Well, I guess you can blame voters for tolerating the horseshit until it became this bad, but in the voters defense Obama was a really good campaigner
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Nov 11, 2018 09:31
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Sanguinia posted:Yeah, gently caress all the people who've endured unimaginable suffering in the last two years and will continue to for the next two years. Trans people aren't going to legally exist anymore and women have their very bodily autonomy at risk in the SCOTUS and 50 other horrible things. But at least you sent a message! Is it all that much better if the exact same thing happens from 2020 to 2024 because hillary inevitably loses to Trump But Not A Moron?
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Nov 11, 2018 09:33
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I mean, sure, the Democratic Party can just say “we’re a private entity and we don’t exist to serve rank and file Democratic voters or their interests, so we will pick whoever we drat well want to win the primary,” but that doesn’t seem like a very smart thing when they need those voters to win elections.
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Nov 11, 2018 09:38
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THF13 posted:I agree with you that they prefer those candidates, and I've acknowledged they do sometimes try to tip the scales. I don't think the actions they've taken or the frequency of how often they try to tip the scales has reached a point that justifies headlines that Democrats are rigging the primaries. Then I think we are pretty much on the same page here. I however do think "the actions they've taken or the frequency of how often they try to tip the scales" does qualify for that term and those headlines. It's pretty subjective on where to draw the line I guess regarding that terminology so I guess we will have to just agree to disagree there.
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Nov 11, 2018 09:38
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Conversely I don't think voting for Hillary absolves any of us from our complicity with the Trump administration. We're all allowing them to commit evil in our name. We have good excuses for why we allow that, but they're the same excuses heard throughout time for why "good people" didn't stand up against evil. But I have a general attitude that we're all complicit in the evils that makes our economy work.
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Nov 11, 2018 09:40
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StrangersInTheNight posted:iiiiii do not think it sent the message you think it sent - if you don't vote why should they care, they'll just stop catering to you, much like how vegetarians are not considered a threat to the meat industry A message very obviously was sent, and they very obviously do care. After the fall of Clinton and the continued popularity of Sanders the newest batch of candidates at least pretend to be way more left than previous batches. All the 2020 prospectives are at least giving lip setvice to M4A, which candidate Clinton famously yelled would never ever happen. So yeah, not voting works. The signs were there that this stuff was popular *before* 2016, but the Democratic Party thought they were above such petty concerns as what the people want when they could go with the reliable 'but have you seen the other guy?'.
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Nov 11, 2018 09:41
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Is there any sort of timeline for the various recounts?
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Nov 11, 2018 09:57
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Not a Step posted:A message very obviously was sent, and they very obviously do care. After the fall of Clinton and the continued popularity of Sanders the newest batch of candidates at least pretend to be way more left than previous batches. All the 2020 prospectives are at least giving lip setvice to M4A, which candidate Clinton famously yelled would never ever happen. So yeah, not voting works. The signs were there that this stuff was popular *before* 2016, but the Democratic Party thought they were above such petty concerns as what the people want when they could go with the reliable 'but have you seen the other guy?'. Do they have out pamphlets with arguments nobody has ever made so you people can all say the same things
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Nov 11, 2018 09:58
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theflyingorc posted:Do they have out pamphlets with arguments nobody has ever made so you people can all say the same things Yes, Im on a mailing list. But seriously though Im responding to people actually making the arguments you say dont exist in this very thread. You could try scrolling up.
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Nov 11, 2018 10:00
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Not a Step posted:Yes, Im on a mailing list. Oh boy i love a constantly shifting reference frame where i get to take any statement my vast collection of enemies has said and pointing it at all of them, that's my favorite
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Nov 11, 2018 10:04
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Not a Step posted:Yo I voted for dread Abuela  I'll continue to vote for centrist shitheels provided they won their primaries fairly, and give them other support. But while I won't just assume underhanded tactics, it won't take a lot of evidence to convince me of them, since we've got the loving leaders of the Democratic party telling us that this is what they do. Voting for candidates who made it past the primary unfairly just rewards those tactics within the party, and I'll never support that.
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Nov 11, 2018 10:05
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Btw if anyone wants an actual Soviet history thread, I would be happy to op one.
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Nov 11, 2018 10:06
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theflyingorc posted:Oh boy i love a constantly shifting reference frame where i get to take any statement my vast collection of enemies has said and pointing it at all of them, that's my favorite The argument is 'not voting doesnt send a message because they only care about voters' and the respone is 'they clearly care about reaching non voters because of the shift in espoused politics after 2016'. At what point were you not able to follow that?
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Nov 11, 2018 10:09
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Ardennes posted:Btw if anyone wants an actual Soviet history thread, I would be happy to op one.  sounds greatDon't make the mistake of focusing on Stalin and WW2 too much IMO - the revolutionary years and the repeated stupidity of the Tsar leading up to that are interesting as hell. Not a Step posted:At what point were you not able to follow that?  the part where he didn't read any of that before waddling into the middle of the conversation
MSDOS KAPITAL fucked around with this message at 10:12 on Nov 11, 2018 |
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Nov 11, 2018 10:10
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Ardennes posted:Btw if anyone wants an actual Soviet history thread, I would be happy to op one. 
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Nov 11, 2018 10:12
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Axetrain posted:Then I think we are pretty much on the same page here. I however do think "the actions they've taken or the frequency of how often they try to tip the scales" does qualify for that term and those headlines. It's pretty subjective on where to draw the line I guess regarding that terminology so I guess we will have to just agree to disagree there. If Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez endorses, campaigns, or helps fund raise for other progressive candidates during the primaries for 2020 is she rigging them like Dems did in these headlines? If the party and members of the party are not allowed to influence a primary at all are there any safeguards to prevent someone with an agenda totally different than the party's from running in it? What about a person running in the primary solely with the intention of disrupting the normal process, like a Republican running in the Democratic primary to try to win a 3 way contest vs 2 Dems splitting the vote? To give some context to my thoughts here, I'm from a NY county that was represented in the State Senate by a member of the Independent Democratic Conference and was frustrated that (D) option on my ballot was effectively voting for a Republican.
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Nov 11, 2018 10:12
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If the R's had their way and were able to change Medicaid into a block grant, in home support services would have their budgets slashed including personal care assistants. This is what allows the severely disabled to live independently. Without this we can't feed ourselves, shower, use the bathroom, get dressed, or work. We have to surrender our freedom and become institutionalized. With all the abuse that entails. It's an immediate cause and effect. When I see this starve the beast voting strategy I just see someone who doesn't have their immediate autonomy on the line. What the hell are we supposed to think? Accelerationism is just telling us to gently caress off and die so you can feel like you stuck it to the establishment.
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Nov 11, 2018 10:14
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:
Yeah, it probably would be more of a Russia/Soviet history thread, but yeah there might have to be ground rules for discussion since it can (obviously) be a heated subject. I would have to think of some ways of trying to keep people from going at each other, since the only way it would happen if it was far more of an effort-post thread. MoaM posted:Whatever prompted you to suggest this, I'm OK with it as well. I have toying with the idea for a while, lets just say I actually have quite a bit of real-life experience on the subject. Also, I agree about block grants, they have always been a code word for the eradication of what safety-net we have. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 10:25 on Nov 11, 2018 |
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Nov 11, 2018 10:21
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Ardennes posted:Btw if anyone wants an actual Soviet history thread, I would be happy to op one. Whatever prompted you to suggest this, I'm OK with it as well. On Topic: This wildfire poo poo is ridiculous, I thought temperatures dropped in the winter? MoaM fucked around with this message at 10:27 on Nov 11, 2018 |
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Nov 11, 2018 10:24
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I would wager that only a very small number of people refuse to vote or fake vote to 'stick it to the establishment'. My feelung is that most nonvoters, which is most of the electorate , dont vote because there isnt a point to it. Things continue to get worse no matter who they vote for, and nobody really seems to care about them. Its not that they want you to die, its that they want someone to care about them and thats not really a strong suit of the current Democratic Party. They abandoned labor for Wall Street decades ago and are only now showing signs of crawling back. Really, why are you so selfish as to support a party that has abandoned them? Why is your health and well being more valuable than theirs? Why are you favored with protections while their home gets foreclosed on with the blessings of a president more concerned with saving banks than people? Its an unfair question, but one that I think drives a lot of voter apathy. You see it as a life or death question for you. They see it as irrelevant to them because no one cares about them. All politics are personal. Demand your representatives protect others so they have the motivation to protect you in turn.
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Nov 11, 2018 10:25
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MoaM posted:
Well wildfire season is this time of year, but I can confirm that it’s 45 degrees outside and, as my phone weather app explains, the weather is “smoke”.
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Nov 11, 2018 10:33
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Not a Step posted:Its an unfair question, but one that I think drives a lot of voter apathy. You see it as a life or death question for you. They see it as irrelevant to them because no one cares about them. All politics are personal. Demand your representatives protect others so they have the motivation to protect you in turn. That's the thing, we do demand everyone gets protection. We haven't failed to pressure our representatives. ADAPT had people on ventilators dragged out of the capital at great risk to their health and in immediate pain. The disabled community isn't abandoning anyone and has historically been kept out of sight and out of mind. It is poo poo defense to demand something from us like we don't already contribute to the cause. Spoke Lee fucked around with this message at 10:57 on Nov 11, 2018 |
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Nov 11, 2018 10:42
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