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It wouldn't be that hard to overhaul the Middle East thread into a general warcrimes/genocide/enforced starvation megathread at this point. Or if Axeil has the time and energy to make such a thread that would be awesome too.
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Nov 11, 2018 11:03
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Herstory Begins Now posted:It wouldn't be that hard to overhaul the Middle East thread into a general warcrimes/genocide/enforced starvation megathread at this point. Or if Axeil has the time and energy to make such a thread that would be awesome too. Hmmm while there is plenty of dark events in the current Middle East, I think having a separate regional thread is fine. It is still a major global region that has more than war crimes going on in it (although there are plenty of that happening).
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Nov 11, 2018 11:11
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THF13 posted:If Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez endorses, campaigns, or helps fund raise for other progressive candidates during the primaries for 2020 is she rigging them like Dems did in these headlines? I guess in an alternate universe where AOC and her socialist cohorts now control the democratic party and use their power and wealth to influence the party against the will of the voters clamoring for neo-liberalism you might have a point. This also kind of ignores that for most people a person like AOC being in charge of things would lead to measurably better outcomes than what we have now. Also I don't know what safeguards should be in place, it's probably a good discussion to have though. For my own context I live in Chicago and my rep is Jan Schakowsky who I am generally pretty pleased with as being very progressive, and my state senator was Ira Silverstein who was pretty poo poo but was just beaten by another dem I know almost nothing about. Unfortunately I also must sleep now.
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Nov 11, 2018 11:12
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I'm driving down the road, a road I've driven a hundred times. I hear a song I don't like and I reach down to change the station. In that moment, I hit the car next to me and we both overreact and end up making it so much worse than a side-swipe. Clearly, I'm at fault, I was distracted. Every day on the traffic report I hear of an accident, often fatal, on a particular curve of the interstate where the faded lane markings go one way, and the clear pavement lines go another. Traffic camera archives show that the majority of accidents happen when two cars follow opposing "lanes" into each other. People dig into it, and find out it's actually the most deadly stretch of road in the entire country. This is a constant argument in the thread, with "individual responsibility" posters treating each death as an atomic event, unconnected to any other. Hyper-focus on any single accident will reveal that that driver did in fact make a mistake, and thus they are justified. There is no reason to fix the road, they argue, because each driver should have chosen to pay more attention. At most, perhaps re-paint the lines again. That doesn't cost them anything and now they've "done something" about the problem. Other posters argue that the sheer disparity in excess accidents means something systemic is wrong, and that a radical change is needed to the highway to address the fact that it kills more people per mile than anywhere else in the nation. "If it is the fault of distracted drivers", they say, "why does it keep happening in one place?". This argument is repeatedly shouted down, insulting those posters as being lovely drivers and the cause of all those deaths. Those posters fire back that they haven't personally been in an accident and they're talking in sweeping statistics. While imperfect and not a 1:1 analogue, everyone should be clear on what I'm discussing here.
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Nov 11, 2018 11:41
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Sanguinia posted:Yeah, gently caress all the people who've endured unimaginable suffering in the last two years and will continue to for the next two years. Trans people aren't going to legally exist anymore and women have their very bodily autonomy at risk in the SCOTUS and 50 other horrible things. But at least you sent a message! Too bad the dems won’t send a message and hold a strong line against republicans trying to gently caress over women and transgender people. Schumer refusing to hold manchin to account for his kavanaugh vote really shows those groups how committed the dems are to protecting them If only our leadership was held to the same standards every voter apparently should be held to.
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Nov 11, 2018 12:03
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Harik posted:While imperfect and not a 1:1 analogue, everyone should be clear on what I'm discussing here. Affordable voting?
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Nov 11, 2018 12:04
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Harik posted:While imperfect and not a 1:1 analogue, everyone should be clear on what I'm discussing here. Alternately, a lot of people on this message board are very fond of and almost exclusively view politics & sociology through the lens of victimization. When all you have is a hammer . . .
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Nov 11, 2018 12:16
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Harik posted:I'm driving down the road, a road I've driven a hundred times. I hear a song I don't like and I reach down to change the station. In that moment, I hit the car next to me and we both overreact and end up making it so much worse than a side-swipe. This is why i dont generally discuss politics with people offline because this forum is probably one of the few places that my positions would be consider briefly before the deer in headlights look kicks in. It's a long run to start from "have you considered the whole system from capitalism to the prison system is fundamentally flawed and the entire world is in fact unjust?" When the friendliest party is figureheaded by Nancy Pelosi.
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Nov 11, 2018 12:19
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Not a Step posted:I would wager that only a very small number of people refuse to vote or fake vote to 'stick it to the establishment'. My feelung is that most nonvoters, which is most of the electorate , dont vote because there isnt a point to it. Things continue to get worse no matter who they vote for, and nobody really seems to care about them. Its not that they want you to die, its that they want someone to care about them and thats not really a strong suit of the current Democratic Party. They abandoned labor for Wall Street decades ago and are only now showing signs of crawling back. There has not been some mass defection of people to the ranks of nonvoters in our lifetime.
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Nov 11, 2018 12:30
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Tibalt posted:This one was shorter because, well... Colorado is kind of weird and you can't make as many predictions about it. - Colorado is already effectively a blue state. - The mechanisms behind this + the mechanisms driving permanence in political demographic changes = Colorado is indefinitely a blue state. - There is much to be gained, electorally, by letting Republicans fail to recognize this because they want to believe that Colorado is still a "purple swirl." - Colorado is also a weirdly progressive/antibigotry state and can expect opportunities to early adopt very progressive systems (like UHC) much as they did weed. - Colorado's economic situation may end up extremely strong in the coming years because of it being a very large region in the center of the country which is not being substantially turbofucked by legacy conservative policies that are dragging its neighbors under, most notably Kansas. - If you ever hear the words "Colorado repeals TABOR" it is actually huge news and it means that the state has just drug out and executed its red state past, and is about to do great things.
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Nov 11, 2018 12:30
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Harik posted:I'm driving down the road, a road I've driven a hundred times. I hear a song I don't like and I reach down to change the station. In that moment, I hit the car next to me and we both overreact and end up making it so much worse than a side-swipe. I think another part of what's underlying this whole discussion is that a lot of people, consciously or unconsciously, have this mental picture of responsibility and blame of being like a pie. If one person has a bigger slice of the pie, then by necessity other people have a smaller slice. So assigning any blame to individual voters takes blame away from more significant actors, and vice versa. I think that for something as serious as Trump, a better way to think of it is like blood from a particularly vicious gang murder. There's a functionally infinite amount to go round. Trump, Putin and the GOP are swimming in it. Comey and the DNC are drenched from head to toe. And anyone living in a state or House district that went red who voted Green or refused to vote out of ~principle~, well, they're stained. Yes, they're stained less than the Trump voters. Yes, they had reasons for acting as they did, and they're not the wider systemic problem here. Yes, shaming them isn't an effective way to fix things and we should try to win them back in 2020. And yes, their impact on turnout was small relative to voter suppression. But they are still loving stained. Admitting that in a private forum doesn't detract from the guilt of anyone else in this shitshow, and refusing to admit it absolves people who frankly shouldn't be absolved.
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Nov 11, 2018 12:40
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pumpinglemma posted:This is a good post. I’d argue that people who enable the dem leadership no matter how much they gently caress up share some blame. Why would the dems change their behavior if you will always vote for them no matter what they do?
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Nov 11, 2018 12:46
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Rank and the Democrats don't have the ability to vote or not vote for party leadership
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Nov 11, 2018 13:02
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Condiv posted:I’d argue that people who enable the dem leadership no matter how much they gently caress up share some blame. Why would the dems change their behavior if you will always vote for them no matter what they do? You fight and organize to push them out. If that fails, fight and organize to push them left. If that fails, organize for the next opening you get but vote to not have your allies institutionalized and persecuted so we can all fight.
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Nov 11, 2018 13:04
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Spoke Lee posted:You fight and organize to push them out. If that fails, fight and organize to push them left. If that fails, organize for the next opening you get but vote to not have your allies institutionalized and persecuted so we can all fight. So how am I not voting to have my allies institutionalized and persecuted when I vote for manchin? Condiv fucked around with this message at 13:14 on Nov 11, 2018 |
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Nov 11, 2018 13:12
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Condiv posted:I’d argue that people who enable the dem leadership no matter how much they gently caress up share some blame. Why would the dems change their behavior if you will always vote for them no matter what they do? * (unless you live in a deep blue district in New York or something, then it's more debatable.)
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Nov 11, 2018 13:12
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Charlz Guybon posted:Uh, Henry Clay was elected Speaker of the House as a first term representative and he quickly became the most influential legislator in this country between 1789 and 1860. Edit: I apologize, I missed the post ending Clay chat in my rush to reply. Tibalt fucked around with this message at 13:24 on Nov 11, 2018 |
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Nov 11, 2018 13:19
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Spoke Lee posted:That's the thing, we do demand everyone gets protection. We haven't failed to pressure our representatives. ADAPT had people on ventilators dragged out of the capital at great risk to their health and in immediate pain. The disabled community isn't abandoning anyone and has historically been kept out of sight and out of mind. It is poo poo defense to demand something from us like we don't already contribute to the cause. ADAPT aren't a political party, though, which is where the disconnect creeps in. On a local level, with organizations like ADAPT, or CAIR, or the Audubon Society or whatever, it's easy to have that solidarity on a local level because on the local level you usually aren't having to make huge trade-offs between different groups. If the local fight is about something specific to helping disabled people, you don't have to sell out African Americans to get them that help. Nationally, though, it's all about trade-offs. Let's say there is a vote in 2020: Voting for any democrat will help you, right? But (not a hypothetical) I am a Muslim living in the middle east with a lot of family and we all go to weddings a lot. Now I am in the position where, if I "vote blue no matter who" to help you, I could be signing the death warrant for my nephew Ahmed, who is a nerd but certainly should not be executed. If I don't do that, then you are getting screwed over. No matter which way we vote, even if we both vote democrat, someone is being put on the firing line.
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Nov 11, 2018 13:27
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Kavros posted:- If you ever hear the words "Colorado repeals TABOR" it is actually huge news and it means that the state has just drug out and executed its red state past, and is about to do great things. And yeah, CO seems like a strong blue state, which is why Gardner seems like one of the easiest pickups to me.
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Nov 11, 2018 13:33
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pumpinglemma posted:2016 was the start of endgame. Leaving aside the morality of trading concrete human suffering for nebulous long-term gains (I'm not a fan), it was very obvious that losing that election was going to ruin America as a country in a way that Romney 2012 wouldn't have. And if you lose one more - if Trump takes every branch of government in 2020 - then you're loving done. It won't matter whether the DNC is controlled by leftists or centrists, because there will never be another honest election for them to win. Right now the only way to fight the centrists for control is to join the DSA and primary them. Donate, volunteer, do everything you can to win those primaries, and the only reason I won't be right there with you is that I don't live in the US. But once that's over, the choice becomes one of fascism versus non-fascism. It doesn't matter how lovely the not-fascist is, there's only one remotely moral choice in that contest, and it's not abstention.* Personally I’m sick of trading short term wins for long term losses, which is what #votebluenomatterwho has gotten us
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Nov 11, 2018 13:34
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I don't really get why leftists love to complain about Democrats on the internet. I mean, I guess they'll at least have a reasonable argument with you, unlike a Republican or conservative. But if you can't pull a Chomsky and admit to yourself that the Republican Party is one of the most evil organizations in US and world history, then what are you even doing? What is useful about quibbling with degrees of responsibility when you know for a fact that the Republican rank and file voter will lie to you, live in bad faith and vote for a fascist? I'd rather hold them responsible and focus my anger and frustration at them. Everything else, from voting to protesting or whatever policy you want is a tactical disagreement about how to deal with the same enemy, right?
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Nov 11, 2018 13:38
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The long-term losses are because Republicans reliably get out to vote for every election including midterms and local, and Democrats do not. It is impossible to push left only in general elections. Primary left to enact the change you want; vote in the feneral in whatever fashion prevents the conservatives from winning. The PP-ACA might have been hugely flawed, but if Republicans had not been able to chip away at it, it would be far better today than it currently is, and it would be easier to patch up until we had enough progressives in the House and in the Senate to pass something better.
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Nov 11, 2018 13:43
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Themagicalgoat posted:I don't really get why leftists love to complain about Democrats on the internet. I mean, I guess they'll at least have a reasonable argument with you, unlike a Republican or conservative. But if you can't pull a Chomsky and admit to yourself that the Republican Party is one of the most evil organizations in US and world history, then what are you even doing? What is useful about quibbling with degrees of responsibility when you know for a fact that the Republican rank and file voter will lie to you, live in bad faith and vote for a fascist? I'd rather hold them responsible and focus my anger and frustration at them. Everything else, from voting to protesting or whatever policy you want is a tactical disagreement about how to deal with the same enemy, right? What leftist doesn't believe this? Not even the Marxist-Leninists I know think that the Dems are worse than the GOP. The problem is that Dems actually do hold a lot of the same downright evil positions and for the most part seem to only work for the bourgoisie.
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Nov 11, 2018 13:44
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Tibalt posted:Holy poo poo, that is a powerfully bad law. That's right up there with California's old "majority vote to pass spending, super-majority to pay for it" ballot system. Florida just passed something like California's law by the way.
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Nov 11, 2018 13:45
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I enjoy the dunking on Trump by everyone for not attending that ceremony due to light rain, but does anyone else really not give a gently caress about respecting the troops?
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Nov 11, 2018 13:46
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AlBorlantern Corps posted:I enjoy the dunking on Trump by everyone for not attending that ceremony due to light rain, but does anyone else really not give a gently caress about respecting the troops? "Are troops" are pretty much just mercenaries for our brutal imperialist regime, but I feel like the armistice is worth commemorating.
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Nov 11, 2018 13:49
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French shade thrown at trump: https://twitter.com/EmmanuelMacron/status/1061598511324692481 "Patriotism is the exact opposite of nationalism: nationalism is treason. By saying "our interests first and what do the others matter! We erase what a nation has most precious, what makes it live: its moral values."
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Nov 11, 2018 13:50
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AlBorlantern Corps posted:I enjoy the dunking on Trump by everyone for not attending that ceremony due to light rain, but does anyone else really not give a gently caress about respecting the troops? I just want Trump to stop embarrassing us around the other leaders.
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Nov 11, 2018 13:51
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When you're in the voting booth on November 4th 2020, and you're looking at a ballot that has Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump, Jill Stein, and "JOHN" "MICHAEL" "FREE MAN OF THE LAND", there are a limited number of choices available to you. That is why I compared it to the Trolley Problem. You can say, "the Democrats shouldn't put up Hillary Clinton" and I'll agree with you. You can say, "Trump should be impeached and in jail" and I'll agree with you. That doesn't change the fact that the only moral decision you can make is pulling the lever for lesser evil, because doing nothing, voting third party, or voting for Donald Trump are all actions that directly contribute to ther possibility of four more years of children concentration camps, violating the Geneva Convention on Refugees, and the slide into fascism. Not pulling the lever kills 5 people. Pulling the lever kills one. Get outta here with your Kantian maxims and pull the lever. Oh, also, voting is the most effective activity available to you on election day.
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Nov 11, 2018 13:52
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Goffer posted:French shade thrown at trump: The idea of Macron having moral values is pretty funny tbh
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Nov 11, 2018 13:52
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AlBorlantern Corps posted:I enjoy the dunking on Trump by everyone for not attending that ceremony due to light rain, but does anyone else really not give a gently caress about respecting the troops? Ordinarily, no, but showing respect for the memory of World War I veterans and casualties is considered a basic polite nicety akin to respecting a Holocaust memorial and utterly divorced from ARE TROOPS and makes you look like a giant rear end in a top hat if you can’t at least be bothered to just shut your mouth and bow your head silently for 30 seconds and just pretend like you care. Anyone can do that. Anyone but Large American Toddler President Donald John Trump, apparently. The fact that it’s also the 100th anniversary of the end of WWI just makes it exponentially more insulting.
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Nov 11, 2018 13:55
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Tibalt posted:When you're in the voting booth on November 4th 2020, and you're looking at a ballot that has Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump, Jill Stein, and "JOHN" "MICHAEL" "FREE MAN OF THE LAND", there are a limited number of choices available to you. That is why I compared it to the Trolley Problem. You tried this argument with us years ago. We will never be fooled again . If the dem candidate isn’t at least as left as AOC , I will write in Gritty. Period. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 11, 2018 14:08
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Tibalt posted:When you're in the voting booth on November 4th 2020, and you're looking at a ballot that has Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump, Jill Stein, and "JOHN" "MICHAEL" "FREE MAN OF THE LAND", there are a limited number of choices available to you. That is why I compared it to the Trolley Problem. Game theory changes on iterated problems. In 2016, we can now probably say that the choice presented was between "5 people for the next 4 years and ??? beyond that" and "1 person for the next four years and 7 more people beyond that" because the one saving grace for the rest of us of donald trump is that he's a loving moron who cares less about how competent people are about accomplishing his fascism than whether they're sufficiently willing to kiss his rear end and whoever beat Hillary Clinton in 2020 would be running the same playbook but much smarter because it's pretty loving hard not to be smarter than donald trump. In fairness, yes for 2020 i do not see many possible situations where trump winning again wouldn't just straight up be unarguably worst, but this conversation isn't JUST about 2020, it's about the broader principle of "always vote blue" and 2016 basically shows that it's not just "oh it's possible for at least one case voting blue will just make things worst later." Everything bad that has happened and will happen over these 4 years was inevitable from the moment Hillary Clinton won the nomination. The only choice was between "now, and really loving bad" and "later, and even worse."
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Nov 11, 2018 14:08
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tetrapyloctomy posted:The long-term losses are because Republicans reliably get out to vote for every election including midterms and local, and Democrats do not. It is impossible to push left only in general elections. Primary left to enact the change you want; vote in the feneral in whatever fashion prevents the conservatives from winning. The PP-ACA might have been hugely flawed, but if Republicans had not been able to chip away at it, it would be far better today than it currently is, and it would be easier to patch up until we had enough progressives in the House and in the Senate to pass something better. This happens because republican voters know that when they vote GOP, their representatives will broadly do what they want, whereas the first thing Democrats do when they get power is to start making GBS threads on their base and declare that the things the base wants are completely off the table. This leads to the current situation where the GOP wins over and over until they gently caress up so bad that the sheer popular backlash gives the Dems an occasional win, hth. Hence the Democratic party needs to be reformed first if you want the GOP out of power for good Themagicalgoat posted:I don't really get why leftists love to complain about Democrats on the internet. I mean, I guess they'll at least have a reasonable argument with you, unlike a Republican or conservative. But if you can't pull a Chomsky and admit to yourself that the Republican Party is one of the most evil organizations in US and world history, then what are you even doing? What is useful about quibbling with degrees of responsibility when you know for a fact that the Republican rank and file voter will lie to you, live in bad faith and vote for a fascist? I'd rather hold them responsible and focus my anger and frustration at them. Everything else, from voting to protesting or whatever policy you want is a tactical disagreement about how to deal with the same enemy, right? It's because the current Dem leadership are completely incapable to resist fascism at best and a bunch of Quislings at worst, and hence they've gotta go if fascism is to be stopped. They're responsible for paving the way to where we are now, and hence this whole dem fanboy fantasy of team D winning an election is all that it takes is absurd and counterproductive. You're essentially in a ticking time bomb situation where you have to unfuck the fundamental problems in the US before an actually competent fascist arrives on the political scene, but the dems have shown themselves to be capable of what's at best a holding action, and hence everybody who's just circling the wagons around the dem establishment is making fascism pretty much inevitable. Also getting mad at individual voters just doesn't loving work, so anybody who still pushes that line while claiming to want the GOP out of power shouldn't be listened to under any circumstances.
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Nov 11, 2018 14:11
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Condiv posted:So how am I not voting to have my allies institutionalized and persecuted when I vote for manchin? You vote for Manchin while realizing everything you've hope and dreamed for has gone funneling down the drain and also simultaneously wishing he does the right thing cause he's still technically a D.
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Nov 11, 2018 14:23
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Condiv posted:Personally I’m sick of trading short term wins for long term losses, which is what #votebluenomatterwho has gotten us
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Nov 11, 2018 14:28
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The one time when Trump tries to smile... https://twitter.com/NormEisen/status/1061595280720703489
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Nov 11, 2018 14:28
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Themagicalgoat posted:I don't really get why leftists love to complain about Democrats on the internet. I mean, I guess they'll at least have a reasonable argument with you, unlike a Republican or conservative. But if you can't pull a Chomsky and admit to yourself that the Republican Party is one of the most evil organizations in US and world history, then what are you even doing? What is useful about quibbling with degrees of responsibility when you know for a fact that the Republican rank and file voter will lie to you, live in bad faith and vote for a fascist? I'd rather hold them responsible and focus my anger and frustration at them. Everything else, from voting to protesting or whatever policy you want is a tactical disagreement about how to deal with the same enemy, right? There aren’t any leftists who don’t hate the republicans lol. However you don’t blame your enemy for being your enemy. You definitely do blame your supposed allies for being complete poo poo.
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Nov 11, 2018 14:29
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pumpinglemma posted:Long term losses don't matter when the next short term loss means there won't be a long term any more. I don't give a poo poo if you're sick of it, I am too, but that's reality, get on board or you're part of the problem. Short termism is what's brought us to this situation so you're literally advocating for something that will make the outcome you want to avoid inevitable here.
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Nov 11, 2018 14:31
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Tibalt posted:Not pulling the lever kills 5 people. Pulling the lever kills one. Get outta here with your Kantian maxims and pull the lever. I'm rather pleasantly surprised at how many different directions people took my metaphor. For the record, the decision was to spend umpteen billion dollars modernizing I4 to cut down on design disasters like offramps backing up into high-speed traffic and the insane zipper-merge of NB+SB interstate having to cross each other for EB/WB expressway. It meant: an individual voter can make an incorrect choice. Statistically significant numbers of voters are a systemic problem that only the party can fix. No amount of screaming at random forums posters will undo the 40,000 votes that went third party in Florida and changed the outcome. What about the party is causing tens of thousands of people to vote "wrong"?
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Nov 11, 2018 14:33
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